A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

ajdelange said:

That depends on the grains and the alkalinity of the water but it is not an unreasonable number by any means. 88% lactic acid is 11.6 N which means that 2 mL yields 23.2 mEq. In a typical mash with 10 pounds of grain and 10 gal of water that might be expected to shift mash pH by about 0.06 pH or so.

Yes.

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I noticed in my last batch (an American Amber and the first I've acutally tested) that mash pH was at 5.4 with only the natural acidifying action of the grist. However the sparge tested at about 6.2. I had made no adjustments to the water beforehand or during the process as I was just trying to get a handle on where things were without modification.

Granted, I was using test strips instead of a meter so my numbers aren't going to be as accurate as they probably should be.

pH measurements with strips are pretty useless in brewing.

Ad, first off a huge thanks, this has really helped! I have a question though, at what percentage of roasted malt would you skip the saurmalt?

Every mash contains things that have proton deficits WRT to desired mash pH and things that have proton surfeits (negative proton deficits). In the first group are the brewing water (assuming it has finite alkalinity), base and other lightly colored malts, sodium bicarbonate and lime. In the latter are higher colored malts, sauermalz and acids. The idea is to have the total proton deficit to be equal to 0 at the desired mash pH (surfeits equal deficits). You can skip the sauermalz if the total surfeit from the dark malts is enough to make the sum of all the mash surfeits equal to the sum of the mash deficits at the desired pH.

That's probably confusing but I am trying to encourage people to think in these terms. Another way of putting it is that you can skip the sauermalz if the acidity of the dark malts is enough to reduce the pH of the base malts to the desired pH without the need for additional acid. This depends on
1)The amount of each malt you use
2)The distilled water mash pH of each of these malts
3)The buffering capacities (amount of acid required to bring about unit pH change) of each malt
4)The alkalinity of the brewing liquor and the water to grist ratio
5)The calcium and magnesium hardnesses of the liquor
6)Any additions of acids or bases to the mash/water

There are several available spreadsheets and calculators which attempt to make the necessary calculations for you but none are robust and even if they were they wouldn't have the malt data. They are, nonetheless, useful for rough calculations i.e. they will get you into the ball park in many cases.

Hi,

I'm a bit confused about water requirements for an IPA, I found a reference for an IPA earlier in this thread:

From baseline:
Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

so does this mean for an IPA it would be:

2tsp of Calcium Chloride and 1 tsp of gypsum (since theres no gypsum in the baseline?)

Thanks for the help!
Jon

Yes, that would be confusing. The implication is that you double the baseline for British Beers since an IPA is a British beer but perhaps you are doing an American IPA. Thus the implied recommendation is 2 tsp each of CaCl2 and CaSO4. That just seems like too much to me from my current way of thinking. I'd be more comfortable with 1 tsp of each and then experiments with the finished beer and gypsum to see if more is warranted in future brews.

.

So my next recipe is going to be a Black IPA using .875 lbs of Carafa III which apparently can be pretty acidic. I will be using RO water, so my idea is to use (per 5 gallons of mash water)

1tsp of Gypsum, 1tsp of Calcium Chloride and 1tsp of Sodium Bircobanate (as I read that the Carafa III can be pretty acidic). Does that sound like a decent starting off game plan?

This is the Primer thread where the object is a KISS approach to brewing so under the guidance of the Primer you would use the calcium chloride and gypsum and skip the sauermalz. In most cases with a dark beer you will be OK (if on the low end of desirable pH). I have never measured Carafa but deriving some data from Kai Troester's measurements it appears that 1 gram of sodium bicarbonate (1/5 tsp) will be enough to neutralize 7/8 lb of Carafa III to pH 5.5. A whole tsp. thus seems excessive. But I don't know anything about the rest of the grain bill. It may be that the proton deficits of the base malts are sufficient to offset the proton surfeit of the Carafa. It depends on the base malts' properties and how much of them are being used as well as whether any other colored malts are present. The Primer strives to ignore all this.

Thanks adj! I have to admit its easy to go overboard on the reading of this topic! I appreciate the help

Hi Adj

First time poster and apologies for not reading the whole thread. Hoping you can answer this question regarding the original post and guidelines.

My water is very soft and the minerals are sometimes slightly higher than your soft water guidelines, I'm hoping you could tell me if your guide to additions would be suitable for my profile as I do not have access to RO or distilled water.

Calcium - 13
Magnesium - 5
Sodium - 14
Sulfate - 10
Chloride - 30
Bicarbonate - 39
Alkalinity - 32

Many thanks

Yes, I think so.

I realize this is very simplified but of the 4 options included in the original post (below) where would a Belgian Tripel fall (pale)? How about a dubbel (darker)?



For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and gypsum

I've been using this http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/#help_TargetWaterReport ... To figure out my brewing salts needed. I only have one question. Once I figure which salts and how much to add, do I add them to just the strike water before dough in? After? Or BOTH strike and sparge? I don't see the need of treating sparge water, but if the calculator is accounting for it, I don't want too high of a concentration of salts in the strike water.

TastyAdventure said:

I've been using this http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/#help_TargetWaterReport ... To figure out my brewing salts needed. I only have one question. Once I figure which salts and how much to add, do I add them to just the strike water before dough in? After? Or BOTH strike and sparge? I don't see the need of treating sparge water, but if the calculator is accounting for it, I don't want too high of a concentration of salts in the strike water.

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I don't do that much water adjusting but I would think the numbers for acidity are based on the mash portion only and the salts shouldn't be to much of a concern. You could always divide them evenly between the total water volume though. I don't see why that would hurt anything.

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where would a Belgian Tripel fall (pale)? How about a dubbel (darker)?

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Beershere - I would run the tripel at the baseline - no adjustments and for the dubbel, consider the roast malt option.

Others may disagree.

To figure out my brewing salts needed. I only have one question. Once I figure which salts and how much to add, do I add them to just the strike water before dough in? After? Or BOTH strike and sparge?

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This is not really a Primer question, but to answer:

Brewer's Friend Advanced Water Calculator (as opposed to the Basic) allows you to compute the additions for the mash to help you achieve a specific mash pH (as does Bru'n Water). Often, the excess minerals will be added to the sparge water along with a specific amount of liquid acid to bring the sparge water pH below 6.0 (or some arbitrary number) to prevent tannin extraction. Others will simply harden the whole liquor and use acid to manage pH independently. You could also add the excess minerals into the boil kettle. Regardless - you should get the mash pH into the right range first, and adjust the appropriately keeping boil pH reasonably close to your mash pH at the start. Too low boil pH affects hop utilization.

As for when - Martin Brungard recommends adding the salts into the strike water before dough in to ensure they are thoroughly dissolved. Any alkaline additions should be done in the mash after dough in.

I've been told there is a taste threshold for lactic acid. Is there a taste threshold for calcium chloride as well?

mchrispen said:

Any alkaline additions should be done in the mash after dough in.

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The reason for dissolving soluble salts in the water is that the are uniformly available to particles of the grist much more quickly than if they are sprinkled onto the mash and stirred in, especially at dough in, before the mash turns slippery, when it is difficult to stir. This is especially true of alkaline or acid or pseudo acid (calcium salt) additions as we want the mash pH to get close to its equilibrium value ASAP. So add everything to the strike water. [Edit: this assumes we are using RO water and that 'everything' excludes lime if the water is carbonaceous - adding lime to hard, carbonaceous water decarbonates by precipitation of chalk]. The idea that some salts should be added to the mash dates back to the days when the gurus were suggesting tbsp of chalk in many, many mashes. They didn't get it that nature has her special way of getting chalk dissolved in water and so, not understanding that it shouldn't be in the mix anyway, reasoned that malt acids were supposed to do the job. They were wrong there too. If chalk was to be used the best way to add it would be to suspend it in the water and then add the water to the grains for the same reason - faster and more uniform distribution.

Now, of course, you can't add a salt that is necessary for a-posteriori adjustment of mash pH to the water a-priori. What do you do if you find you need to add some Ca(OH)2 or NaHCO3 to a mash because its pH is too low? The best approach, IMO, would be to have some pre-dissolved in a fairly large volume of water - say a liter. 68 grams of NaHCO3 dissolved in 1 L of water produces an approximately normal solution of proton absorber i.e. 1 mL of it will suck up 1 mEq of protons. Suppose your pH is 5.1 and you want 5.4. That means an increase of 0.3 pH. A typical mash might have a buffering capacity of about 50 mEq/kg-pH and contain 6 kg of malt so that a total of 0.3*6*50 = 90 mEq of proton absorber is needed. Add half that i.e. 45 mL of your bicarbonate solution, stir it in, let it react and check pH. This will let you know whether you need to add the other half or a bit more or less than the other half. BTW you should have a 1 N solution of phosphoric or some other acid on hand. 10% phosphoric is about 1 N.

Puddlethumper said:

I've been told there is a taste threshold for lactic acid. Is there a taste threshold for calcium chloride as well?

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Of course. Why don't you find out what it is and post the results here?

The reason for dissolving soluble salts in the water is that the are uniformly available to particles of the grist much more quickly than if they are sprinkled onto the mash and stirred in, especially at dough in, before the mash turns slippery, when it is difficult to stir. This is especially true of alkaline or acid or pseudo acid (calcium salt) additions as we want the mash pH to get close to its equilibrium value ASAP

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- Again off topic to the central Primer topic -

AJ - I have tried both ways. Adding acidifying minerals to the strike water (and allowing it to stabilize) - and withholding the alkaline portion (pickling lime in my case) until dough in has worked very well. Putting both into the HLT always precipitates, which gets left behind in the HLT - and swings the mash in pH much wider than the alternative process. I guess I should brew something dark with both processes and chart it for you, but will take some time. Typically, I am within 0.05 of the predicted mash pH at 5 and 15 minutes mashing using my addition procedure. I always strive to add the minimal acid or base necessary to my beers, while achieving the flavor profile I desire.

- Back on topic -

The Primer is centrally concerned with adding acidifying minerals and sauermaltz. I don't see anything there that recommends alkaline additions rather reducing sauermaltz - so this conversation maybe confusing. The Primer recommends the procedure of adding the minerals to the strike water and dissolving before mashing.

mchrispen said:

- Again off topic to the central Primer topic -

Putting both into the HLT always precipitates, which gets left behind in the HLT - and swings the mash in pH much wider than the alternative process.

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Clearly if you add lime to a hard carbonaceous water it will decarbonate it - that's the basis for lime decarbonation. I suppose I had RO water in the back of my mind as this is the Primer thread (and you are right, this is getting a bit away from the theme of that thread but given some of the deviations in it I think we can be forgiven) but if you put enough calcium chloride, sodium bicarbonate and lime into water chalk will precipitate. Lime isn't the greatest choice as a source of alkalinity for this reason. At best it doesn't deliver what the stoichimetry suggests it should especially when mash phosphate comes into play as it precipitates apatite too.

I edited my post to suggest that the advice does not apply if lime is being used as alakli.

ajdelange said:

Of course. Why don't you find out what it is and post the results here?

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I apologize for seeming dense, but your response confuses me. In an earlier post I recall another member indicated that she could detect lactic acid when added above the 3 ml or thereabouts. The primer advocates the use of calcium chloride and sauermaltz (which if I understand correctly is closely akin to lactic acid additions). As I am just getting up to speed on the matter of water additions and I have no chemistry background to draw upon, I thought it pertinent to ask if anyone had reported a similar taste threshold for calcium chloride. Again, my apologies for my ignorance in these matters.

No apology necessary. My response was intended to nudge you in the direction of going to the kitchen and doing a simple experiment to determine where the taste threshold is for you and then letting us know what you find. If I just tell you the answer you won't learn anything (and I don't have it anyway).

I believe AJ is in the belief that if you test and find your results yourself - the meaning is clearer. He is apt to drive a teaching opportunity - as I am apt to put words in his mouth!

There is an often recommended exercise in this board of adding sulfate to finished beer in such as way as to determine a personal preference. The same test could be conducted using calcium chloride to determine the flavor threshold. It's actually a very revealing experiment - and you get to drink a lot of beer. I think that it proves our personal tolerances and preferences really play heavily with perceived quality.

Also remember that we are talking about concentration - so the example of 3 ml lactic should reference the volume it is added to - I assume 5 gallons. I believe that the common wisdom is to limit chloride at 100 ppm - and in conjunction with sulfates, can bring a very minerally flavor to the beer. For some beers this may be desirable - others not so much.

mchrispen said:

I believe AJ is in the belief that if you test and find your results yourself - the meaning is clearer. He is apt to drive a teaching opportunity - as I am apt to put words in his mouth!

Also remember that we are talking about concentration - so the example of 3 ml lactic should reference the volume it is added to - I assume 5 gallons. I believe that the common wisdom is to limit chloride at 100 ppm - and in conjunction with sulfates, can bring a very minerally flavor to the beer. For some beers this may be desirable - others not so much.

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Thanks for the clarification. I think I follow you both now, but help this old slow thinker along here please:

Since the primer suggests a teaspoon in 5 gallons of water, the tests recommended require the ability to measure extremely small amounts if we are going to add it to a single glass of beer. We're talking a few grams at a time, right?

Martin suggests making a gypsum solution at near max solubility, which is 2 grams per liter. I am not sure what the max solubility is for calcium chloride... but I would guess you could do the same concentration. You can then measure your additions in milliliters into the finished beer and work backwards to figure how much you added in weight and calculate the concentration you prefer.

A mg/L is equivalent to PPM.

mchrispen said:

Martin suggests making a gypsum solution at near max solubility, which is 2 grams per liter. I am not sure what the max solubility is for calcium chloride... but I would guess you could do the same concentration. You can then measure your additions in milliliters into the finished beer and work backwards to figure how much you added in weight and calculate the concentration you prefer.

A mg/L is equivalent to PPM.

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I appreciate the advice but I guess I'm just too uneducated to work through all this. I was sort of hoping someone who did have the knowledge to figure this out could just say, "Yeah, don't put more than X teaspoons in 5 gal. or your beer might get a mineral taste," or something like that.

Thanks for trying.

Guys, just reading these last few posts and I'm a little confused. I brew with RO BIAB and treat all my beers as per the first post with cacl gypsum and use sauermalz. I've been putting the cacl and gypsum in the trains before dough in because I must have read somewhere that this is the right approach?? Anyway, I recently got s pH meter and my last few brews both light and dark beers all seem to have pH in the region of 5.6. I test st the end of s 90min mash because I don't have any acid to adjust pH. I'd rather predict more accurately for the next brew. Is my problem adding treatments to the grain or something else?
Thanks
L

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Apologies if I created the confusion.

I believe the prescribed additions should be dissolved in the strike water before the grains are added.


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Yes, put the salts in the water but the amounts specified by the Primer are not enough in most cases to reach desirable mash pH. If you are getting 5.6 then add another percent or two sauermalz.


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Thanks AJ, so just to clarify, if I'm doing a stout should I try maybe 1% sauermalz also

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So this is probably beyond the primer, but longer boil times? How does that affect the beer? For example hair of the dog's Adam is a 5 hr boil, that should change it significantly due to the evaporation and condensing of the boil right?


Edit: it's a 3 hour boil...
Thanks for all the help with the info...
Jp


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Larso said:

Thanks AJ, so just to clarify, if I'm doing a stout should I try maybe 1% sauermalz also

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For a dry Irish stout I usually get about 5.5 and don't bother with any sauermalz but if you are getting 5.6 then you might want some. Do you have CRS available? That would be more traditional than sauermalz.

ajdelange said:

For a dry Irish stout I usually get about 5.5 and don't bother with any sauermalz but if you are getting 5.6 then you might want some. Do you have CRS available? That would be more traditional than sauermalz.

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Damn! I've had CRS and DLS sitting on a shelf for about 2 years and I gave it away a few weeks ago

Sorry, CRS and DLS????


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Brewing a saison. I use 100% RO water. What should I add? Thanks in advance.

I just read the primer and I thought I had it. Then I read a number of replies and now I want to make sure. (Probably shouldn't have read the replies).
I am making a 5 gallon batch of a Burton IPA. I will use 10 gallons of water total for the mash and sparge.
So I need 2% acidulated malt, 4tsp gypsum and 4tsp calcium chloride? Right?

Thanks for this great thread.

Sounds like a good starting point to me.

Quick Question:

For water treated, is that water in or beer out? i.e. 10 ga batch = 2 tsp or 3 since it uses 15 ga of water?

Also - does this go in the mash or in the strike/sparge water?

Thanks in advance!