Elec. HERMS Wiring Diagram

Been working on a wiring diagram for my electric HERMS.

Can anyone spot any mishaps going on in there?

I am also considering using a air pump to agitate the water in the HLT instead of the motor/paddle setup.
Anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks;
Joe

That is almost exactly how I am wiring mine. Nice diagram!

Except I am only running (3) wires to the elements... (2) hots and (1) ground... there is no place for a neutral on them.

I am running a three prong, 30A cord to my element from a 30A three prong dryer outlet.

I am also always going to have power to the PID, and a switch after the SSR that controls the (2) hots to the element... one from the SSR and one from the HOT bar.

Only thing I see off hand is your heaters won't have a neutral, so you can drop back to a 3-pole plug on them.
Also, chances are your PID control may not have a ground either.

My panel will have (3) swithes and a PID on the face of it. I will have the three pronged outlet (30A) and (2) 20A outlets on the back of the box for the following.

Switch #1 controls the HLT Mixer/A419 for the HLT
Switch #2 controls the March Pump
Switch #3 controls the (2) hots running to my 5500W element

I am thinking of using a 12 x 12 x 6 junction box for the control panel. I have already drawn a template of the switch and PID locations.

Also, to split your incoming Hot, Neautral and Ground... are you using terminal strips? OR are those going to be distribution blocks?

I am ordering my PID, SSR and Heat Sink from Auber Inst. today... once that is placed, all I need to get is the junction box and the distribution blocks to split up my hot, ground and neutrals

Pol- Your thread was the inspiration for this diagram. There seems to be a lot of info out there but not a lot "visual" guidance, which helps a lot more then a written explanation. At least for me...

Ya, I was lame on the PID wiring cuz I don't have the first clue on the spec wiring on it.

There is still a lot that I wanted to incorporate on the diagram, but I just wanted to start the thread for proofing reasons. I wish the size limitations were higher on the board to get a better picture up.

I like it, your diagram is a GREAT visual for those wanting to do this on thier own.

Are you using terminal strips or distribution blocks for the control box wiring?

I dont know yet?!

What is better suited for this kinda thing?

I think you need a distribution block for this sort of thing... automation direct sells them.

Like this...
http://web2.automationdirect.com/ad...(Electrical)/Power_Distribution_Blocks/PB1043

Allows three LINES, and 4 LOADS for each line. I will probably have a separate grounding bar.

Awesome Diagram Bmarley!!!!! I guarentee that I will be using this after Christmas when I begin buildng my System.

bmarley,
have you built this yet?

I see you are in NC. I am too. I want to electrify my hlt next month, and learn a bit on this wiring stuff. If you can keep a parts list, I'd love to be able to use it. Maybe we can work on an arrangement where I can come help you put it together so I can see how it works? I have other skills to offer in return if they'll help convince you (and copious amounts of beer).

My new single-tier that is nearing completion (under gas power without automation) lots of photos in my gallery.

bmarley - To answer your other question... I use an aquarium pump to agitate the water in my HERMS chamber and it works great. However, my HERMS chamber is a dedicated vessel (1 gallon cooler) so it doesn't have that much water. Not sure a small air pump will agitate 5+ gallons sufficiently.

I'm hooking up a pump on my keg HLT. I'll draw from the bottom and return in through the lid. Flow will be in through a male QD threaded through the lid into a copper female, down 1/2" tube to a t, out short arms to elbows that point slightly downward and in opposite directions to help generate a rotation. It's cheap, easy (for me, copper sweating is simpler than wiring right now), and I already have the pump, so why not? I plan on using it as a sort of CIP on the vessels after brewing to get the hot PBW around the vessels.

nathan said:

I'm hooking up a pump on my keg HLT. I'll draw from the bottom and return in through the lid. Flow will be in through a male QD threaded through the lid into a copper female, down 1/2" tube to a t, out short arms to elbows that point slightly downward and in opposite directions to help generate a rotation. It's cheap, easy (for me, copper sweating is simpler than wiring right now), and I already have the pump, so why not? I plan on using it as a sort of CIP on the vessels after brewing to get the hot PBW around the vessels.

Click to expand...

This is what I do now but manually. Before I'm ready to mash-in, I recirc the HLT water as you described for 5 min (same just before sparging). But when I build v2.0 of my stand (going electric) I may do something more permanent as you described. I like the flexibility of having two pumps available (double brews). Please post some pics when you get it all set-up. :rockin:

my gallery has my progress so far.
Eventually I would probably want to use a motor and stir-rod. It seems that the energy use would be lower, but also, I may end up over-lapping batches, or wanting that pump #2 for something besides stirring water. I'd also think that once I go electric HLT, I won't want pump 2 to be running only when that hlt is heating, or to get it caught up in the wiring and controls for that vessel. I'd like to keep the pumps open to use as I wish (though maybe some nice switches in a control panel would be helpful).

So through out the whole element circuit there is no neutral? Neutrals on the (4) 120V outlets?
Pol- you say you are placing your element switch after your solid state relay. Mine is before. Is there a wrong / right or pros / cons to either placement?
I drew the diagram with two elements that have their own independent power supply…Is there any benefit to this besides spending more money, and having a boil right after you mash out?

On the pump issue, I got the idea from this 10 gallon coffe urn:
- Grindmaster

The pump that they use is shown here:
http://www.grindmaster.com/literature/partsrefguide/Urns1.pdf

Granted that I don't know how much the water is agitated, but the pump in the picture seems to be small....very small !

Im in Jacksonville btw....

bmarley5780 said:

On the pump issue, I got the idea from this 10 gallon coffe urn:
- Grindmaster

The pump that they use is shown here:
http://www.grindmaster.com/literature/partsrefguide/Urns1.pdf

Granted that I don't know how much the water is agitated, but the pump in the picture seems to be small....very small !

Im in Jacksonville btw....

Click to expand...

The pump pictures is a LOT bigger than the aquarium pump I use so it might deliver enough air. My only other concern is introducing that much air into the water. I'm not trying to start a HSA debate. Just that I remember reading that keeping o2 out of your water at that stage (mash/sparge) is a good idea but I could be wrong on that.

If you can get a single SSR and heat sink... for BOTH elements, you can. Youd have to them split the HOTS coming out of the single SSR though.

The switch placement for the HOTS to the elements, wont matter. Before or after the SSR... should not make a dif.

The thing I did with mine is that each element also has it's own circuit breaker and then a 120V breaker as well. So my range plug goes into a subpanel that has 2 30A 240V breakers and 1 120V 15A breaker. Not sure that was necessary, but it's what I did.

I was thinking of dust/dirt getting pumped into the water, but it will be boiled, so that's probably not too much of an issue.

If you have an airline splitter and run one side through an in-line hepa, you could put a sinterred stone (airstone) on and use it double-duty for your aeration of chilled wort. I use an aquarium pump with help on my wort instead of pure O2 (that gets too expensive).

What I'm saying is that I woundn't need to have both elements on at the same time for any practical reason, besides having a faster brew session...

Have one element circuit.
When I'm done with the mashing unplug that element and then plug in the BK element.

right?

bmarley5780 said:

What I'm saying is that I woundn't need to have both elements on at the same time for any practical reason, besides having a faster brew session...

Have one element circuit.
When I'm done with the mashing unplug that element and then plug in the BK element.

right?

Click to expand...

You have the power only drawing 37.5 amps with both elements on not counting the pump and PID current draw should you wish to have both elements on at the same time. Add another plug as "unpluging the mash and then plug in the BK element" as stated above will get old fast and a PITA you do not need on brew day and can be corrected. Adding air this will reduce your tempertures faster vs a small shaded pole parallel shaft gearmotor (Granger 200 rpm $49), a 3.3" open air straight shaded pole motor 1/50 hp 1550 rpm $29 with a thick plate body turning a smaller impeller or propeller. A 3.3" 1/40 hp 1550 rpm totally enclosed motor for $31.65 All Grainger items. Some shaded motors are 3000 rpm's, your not making whip cream, too fast. Check into Grainger or other supply catalogs. Make a impeller or even a 3" diameter propeller from a hobby shop or large hobby supplier like Tower Hobbies. Save some money on purchasing 10/3 vs 10/4 wires as well 3 prong plugs and receptacles. I would use SSRD's to have both legs to the element switched off as the element will be energized 120 volts to ground even when the PID has no power to the SSR. Safety is a reason why i'm talking about SSRD's switching both legs vs one leg only with the SSR. Nice work on the posted wiring of your project.

SSRD ?

Solid State Relay Double ?

Thanks.

caskconditioned said:

bmarley - To answer your other question... I use an aquarium pump to agitate the water in my HERMS chamber and it works great. However, my HERMS chamber is a dedicated vessel (1 gallon cooler) so it doesn't have that much water. Not sure a small air pump will agitate 5+ gallons sufficiently.

Click to expand...

Well, I will be trying this very thing this weekend! I have a airpump that feeds a 1/4 tube with a couple of small holes.

I really don't know how much circulation you need to prevent stratification, but I think that this might work.

Where do you guys find switches beefy enough (and with enough poles) for the 240V heating elements? I can't seem to find switches rated at 25 amps. Do you use 4PST, or what?

Also, it seems like a 50 amp service would be the "safe" level for an all-grain setup with 2 4500W electric heaters (plus miscellaneous stuff - this is what the original image shows). I've seen plugs at that level at HD/Lowes, but where do you get terminal strips safe for those kinds of amperages? Do you have to get all this stuff online, or run down an electrical supply store? (I'm only building my keggle now, with one 4500W element, but I want to be prepared for a future expansion.)

I feel silly asking this stuff since I'm a BSEE, but I specialized in microcontrollers and digital logic, haven't done any fab work in 8 years, and program supercomputers for a living. I always feel like I"m second-guessing myself with this high-power AC stuff. Better safe than sorry, I guess.

You can find 30A DPST switches at places like Lowes... but that is as large as they carry around here.

I bought a 175A distribution block at AutomationDirect.com that will facilitate 2awg-8awg for the lines and 4awg-14awg for the loads. It has (3) lines, each of which has (4) load connections. I am installing a separate (9)
terminal ground bar inside the box.

Here is my thead with my parts list... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bling-bling-electric-herms-conversion-93217/

bmarley5780 said:

SSRD ?

Solid State Relay Double ?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

That stands for Dual. They cost more but you'll have a system that when the PID signal is off the element will not be hot by 120 volts from the other leg not controlled by a SSR and is still hot unless you use two SSR's. A SSRD would be cheaper plus look better with less wiring and space used as an installation overall.

It is mentioned many times about switching the element with a SSR, seems some people do not know the difference between a SSR and a SSRD or must not understand how to wire a SSRD? Fear of them? I haven't a clue, less wiring plus a cleaner installation and safety factor without a hot 120 leg back feeding, yes.

Go over size with the SSRD's or SSR's including the heat sink plus use the heat paste compound. SSR's generate heat this reduces ther life and kills electronic equipment.
Example for a 23 amp element a 25 amp SSR or SSRD could work (your choice on your build), I would use 40 amp SSR/ SSRD. It will run a lot cooler and last. Any little air movement will reduce the temps by a large amount off the heat sinks. Talking a small square 120 volt computer fan be it 3" or 4".

Got me laughing sorry, a above reply about all this large power, must be talking about element watts and amps here. Work around 12KV at 150 amps that will make a little spark also fast boil times.

Home Depot in my area does carry the 6/3 wire (3 conductors + 1 ground= 6/4)

I didn't see the price as I was being rushes by the wife....

But they do carry it.

bmarley5780 said:

(3 conductors + 1 ground= 6/4)

Click to expand...

You do not count the ground wire in the electrical trade, your talking 6/3 with a ground not 6/4 which would be 4 conductors with a ground. This will cost you more per/ft. with a spare not used wire. What the hell do I know just a 30 year IBEW wireman.
This sounds like general public talk here. I'll shut up preventing going any deeper on this topic and getting in trouble again with facts and codes thus preventing another flame war attacks. National Electrical Code NEC book for minimum standards do not apply on this forum. Just making a statement here and will not reply anymore. Gone silent.

bmarley5780 said:

(3 conductors + 1 ground= 6/4)

Click to expand...

Double post.........oops.

BrewBeemer said:

You do not count the ground wire in the electrical trade, your talking 6/3 with a ground not 6/4 which would be 4 conductors with a ground. This will cost you more per/ft. with a spare not used wire. What the hell do I know just a 30 year IBEW wireman.
This sounds like general public talk here. I'll shut up preventing going any deeper on this topic and getting in trouble again with facts and codes thus preventing another flame war attacks. National Electrical Code NEC book for minimum standards do not apply on this forum. Just making a statement here and will not reply anymore. Gone silent.

Click to expand...

Beemer, I am so very sorry that I didnt know that the ground wire wasn't counted as a wire in the electrical trade.

What the hell do you know? Well I know that you like to bust other peoples balls for not knowing that the ground wire is not counted in the electiceal trade :O)

I look forward to your silence, thanks!

You know, I don't want to bust up in here stepping on toes, but BrewBeemer has a huge amount of electrical experience to share. It seems as if he is trying to help you save a little money on your project and make sure you you end up with a safe system at the same time. I think there may be some misunderstanding here though.
Forums, like emails, do not convey humor, feelings, etc very well as we cannot see the authors expressions when he submits his post. I can assure you that BrewBeemer was not busting your balls at all, but trying to offer his help. Your previous post stating 6/3 with ground was equivalent to 6/4 was in error. I believe he cited past experience/knowledge so you would know that he is not B/S'ing you, but has the background to know what he is talking about.
There is a lot of valuable info being shared here by many more than those posting. If he was telling you wrong, I would call B/S. But he is exactly correct and his info should not be discounted because you didn't like the way he worded it.
BrewBeemer had his balls busted, I thought, a bit unfairly in another thread. So he is probably a little defensive. Don't take it personal.

bull8042 said:

You know, I don't want to bust up in here stepping on toes, but BrewBeemer has a huge amount of electrical experience to share. It seems as if he is trying to help you save a little money on your project and make sure you you end up with a safe system at the same time.

Click to expand...

No toes being stepped on here, but

-That’s GREAT if he has a huge amount of electrical experience to share. Thanks Beemer! But, I don’t think anyone really wants to know the NEC codebook is his/your bible every time an elec. question is asked.

-Saving money? Saving 2-3 dollars per foot? Comon now. Really…..

-Safty~
Let’s say I DID buy the 6-4 OR the 6-3 wire.
~Both are the same gauge wire rated to 55 AMPS (safe there).
~With the 6-3 wire (2 hots, 1 neutral) and the not counted ground. All wired as per the diagram. Seems pretty safe there.
~With the 6-4 wire (2 hots, 1 neutral, extra) and the not counted ground. All wired as per the diagram plus one extra wire. Seems pretty safe too.

But I am curious, what was all of this for?

BrewBeemer said:

What the hell do I know just a 30 year IBEW wireman. This sounds like general public talk here. I'll shut up preventing going any deeper on this topic and getting in trouble again with facts and codes thus preventing another flame war attacks. National Electrical Code NEC book for minimum standards do not apply on this forum. Just making a statement here and will not reply anymore. Gone silent.

Click to expand...

----NOTHING-----