mashing steeping grains

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waynepresley

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I'm planning on brewing an extract IPA with Munich "steeping" grains. I read that you need to mash Munich and it's not all that good for steeping.
So my question is, if i put my milled 1.5 lbs Munich grain in 3 qt of water at 150 degrees for 45 mins, will this basically be mashing it? and roughly how much would this add to my OG?
 
According to this chart, you'd be looking at an increase of about 9 points (i.e., .009) in a five-gallon batch, assuming 85% efficiency. Maybe 8 points for 75% efficiency, depending on which calculator or desktop software you use. And yes, you'd be mashing it.
 
Sure, "steeping" at a prescribed temperature between 145 and 160 for a prescribed time (normally 45-60 minutes) with a prescribed amount of water (1-2 quarts per pound of grain) is mashing.
 
The diastatic power of Munich really depends on who is malting it. Generally, the darker the color, the lower the ability to self convert. The lighter ones convert pretty well. The darker ones are marginal, but should work as long as your other parameters are OK - eg temp, ph, mash thickness.

If you are going to "mash" anyway, you may look up a partial-mash recipe and make the jump. It is really no harder to mash 4 lbs than 1.5 lbs.
 
Not to steal the thread but I have a recipie that calls or me to steep 1# Belgian pale Malt at 160 for 10min should I go a little longer and make it a mash / steep ???
 
Not to steal the thread but I have a recipie that calls or me to steep 1# Belgian pale Malt at 160 for 10min should I go a little longer and make it a mash / steep ???

If it's pale malt, that is a base malt and should be mashed. I'd hold it at 150-155 for 45-60 minutes. One pound of malt won't do much, but if you don't mash it you may get a starch haze in the finished beer. I'd either mash it, or leave it out.
 
Sure, "steeping" at a prescribed temperature between 145 and 160 for a prescribed time (normally 45-60 minutes) with a prescribed amount of water (1-2 quarts per pound of grain) is mashing.

Doesn't "mashing" imply that at least some conversion is taking place?

I was under the impression that when you "steep" the specialty grains, all you're doing is leeching out the sugars that were already converted during the kilning process, or kilned to the point of no longer being fermentable. No conversion is occurring.

I thought in order for it to be a "mash," you have to have some unconverted starch at the beginning, which the enzymes will convert to fermentable sugars.
 
Doesn't "mashing" imply that at least some conversion is taking place?

I was under the impression that when you "steep" the specialty grains, all you're doing is leeching out the sugars that were already converted during the kilning process, or kilned to the point of no longer being fermentable. No conversion is occurring.

I thought in order for it to be a "mash," you have to have some unconverted starch at the beginning, which the enzymes will convert to fermentable sugars.

Yes. That is way I have "steeping" in quotations.

Holding a prescribed temperature, with a prescribed amount of water, for a prescribed length of time is "mashing". That's the technique. But in order for conversion to take place, a base malt needs to be used. When a base malt is used, and held properly at the proper temps, enzymatic activity occurs. We are not talking about specialty grains here. We're talking about Munich malt and Belgian pale malt. Those are base grains.
 
I was under the impression that when you "steep" the specialty grains, all you're doing is leeching out the sugars that were already converted during the kilning process, or kilned to the point of no longer being fermentable. No conversion is occurring.
It's not just the sugars from crystal malts that steeping is extracting. Flavor is a big part of the process along with color. You can steep a base grain at 160 to 170 degrees for 10 minutes and get flavor, but no conversion.
 
Not to steal the thread but I have a recipie that calls or me to steep 1# Belgian pale Malt at 160 for 10min should I go a little longer and make it a mash / steep ???
The answer to this question is probably no.

Unless you adjust the volume and bitterness to get the IBU/SG ratio that the original recipe is trying to hit, you'll end up with a slightly different beer both in bitterness and malt profile. Could be a good thing, but still something to keep in mind.
 
6.6light lme
1lb Belgian pale
2oz n brewer
1oz willamete
3787 Trappist Hg
1lb light candi syrup OR 1lb honey
Irish moss
Also I was going to add sweet orange peel to the fermenter
It says to steep the Belgian for only 10min is that going to be log enough for a Blonde
 
I seem to be rather fond of posting this article which talks about the differences between mashing and steeping, so I'll go ahead and drop the link here.
 
6.6light lme
1lb Belgian pale
2oz n brewer
1oz willamete
3787 Trappist Hg
1lb light candi syrup OR 1lb honey
Irish moss
Also I was going to add sweet orange peel to the fermenter
It says to steep the Belgian for only 10min is that going to be log enough for a Blonde

It's weird, because there are no specialty grains at all. While it's true that steeping the 1 pound of Belgian pale malt for a few minutes might give you some freshness to the wort, it's such a small amount as to be insignificant. I'd probably just leave it out.
 
6.6light lme
1lb Belgian pale
2oz n brewer
1oz willamete
3787 Trappist Hg
1lb light candi syrup OR 1lb honey
Irish moss
Also I was going to add sweet orange peel to the fermenter
It says to steep the Belgian for only 10min is that going to be log enough for a Blonde

The only reason I could think for steeping the pale malt would be to add some serious cloudiness from unconverted starch. You could probably get the same effect with soaking some potatoes in the wort. I'd drop the lb of pale malt all together and brew the rest of it.
 
As an experiment for my past couple batches I have been "mashing" specialty grains (crystal, roasted barley, chocolate) and to offset the possible increase to maltiness I've been doing late addition for dme and full scale boils to increase the bitterness.

Theoretically, was this experiment pointless, or does going through the mashing process with specialty grains increase OG, maltiness, flavor?
 
As an experiment for my past couple batches I have been "mashing" specialty grains (crystal, roasted barley, chocolate) and to offset the possible increase to maltiness I've been doing late addition for dme and full scale boils to increase the bitterness.

Theoretically, was this experiment pointless, or does going through the mashing process with specialty grains increase OG, maltiness, flavor?

From what I understand, you won't extract much sugar, if any, from those specialty grains so your OG will not change much.
How did those batches turn out?
 
From what I understand, you won't extract much sugar, if any, from those specialty grains so your OG will not change much.
How did those batches turn out?

Wonderfully, but I could attribute that to doing a full boil or using my new wort chiller though. I changed/improved several things in addition to "mashing" my specialty grains, so I guess it was a poorly run experiment.

What I can say, though is that the kit called for 1.058 OG and mine measured at 1.062, which I though was directly correlated to my "mashing" process. Furthermore, I expected the "mashed" specialty grains to be unfermentables but the stout is finishing up at 1.018 (4 points below expected FG).
 
From what I understand, you won't extract much sugar, if any, from those specialty grains so your OG will not change much.
This is not true. You do get sugars for these grains. The potential of crystal malts is comparable to 2-row. They are less fermentable sugars than extracted from base grain, but do add to the gravity of you beer and do provide some fermentables.

As said earlier, they do not need to be mashed, although it won't hurt either. The sugars, flavor and other contributions will be the same as if steeped.
 
This is not true. You do get sugars for these grains. The potential is comparable to 2-row. They are less fermentable sugars than extracted from base grain, but do add to the gravity of you beer and do provide some fermentables.

Right- and it's not due to mashing them because grains like crystal are "premashed" so to speak by the way they are processed. But they definitely give you some gravity points.
 
As an experiment for my past couple batches I have been "mashing" specialty grains (crystal, roasted barley, chocolate) and to offset the possible increase to maltiness I've been doing late addition for dme and full scale boils to increase the bitterness.

Theoretically, was this experiment pointless, or does going through the mashing process with specialty grains increase OG, maltiness, flavor?

They'd have to contain the enzymes found in base malts & the like to get any conversion of starches to sugars. Some specialty malts like weyermann's rauchmalt have a small amount of diastatic power,but are better mashed with some base malt like 2-row. The other two have no diastatic power,& steeping for 30 minutes & sparging would be fine. But I do include them in the mash when brewing PM beers. And even though they do lend gravity points,their mainly long chain sugar molecules that add mostly color,flavor,&/or body.
 
Good info. Next time I will simply steep anything but base malts and maybe crystal. I guess I just felt on my early batches that simply steeping the specialty grains was under-utilizing the grains.
 
No worries,m8. This thread did inspire me to do some tweaking on my Pork Soda American rauchbeir recipe. I did it in BS2,comparing my recipe to 22B,other smoked beer,rather than American Dark Lager. I did up the rauchmalt & chocolate malt for more color & hopefully a nutty/chocolatey smoke flavor,kinda like those smokehouse almonds I used to buy at the store. Sounds good for pit bbq to me...:mug:
 
There is a really cool thread of the tests run by nilo on fermentability of crystal.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/testing-fermentability-crystal-malt-208361/index11.html

The 2 row standard was 80% fermentable.

C10 was 50% just steeped but rose to 78% when mashed
C40 was 40% just steeped but rose to 62% when mashed
C120 was 38% just steeped but rose to 53% when mashed

Extraction rates also all increased for the mashed crystal compared to the steeped.

I think that shows pretty conclusively that only some of the starch is converted in the roasting process and some but not all of the sugars created are nonfermentable. Of those nonfermentable sugars, enzymes can reduce some of them to fermentable sugars.
 
This is not true. You do get sugars for these grains. The potential of crystal malts is comparable to 2-row. They are less fermentable sugars than extracted from base grain, but do add to the gravity of you beer and do provide some fermentables.

Thanks for the info! Good to know that I can gain a bit of gravity by using specialty grains.
 
C10 was 50% just steeped but rose to 78% when mashed
C40 was 40% just steeped but rose to 62% when mashed
C120 was 38% just steeped but rose to 53% when mashed
But you have to keep in mind that crystal malts are a small percentage of the total grain bill. Even the 40% vs. 62% only represents around one gravity point in the finished beer.
 
"But you have to keep in mind that crystal malts are a small percentage of the total grain bill. Even the 40% vs. 62% only represents around one gravity point in the finished beer."

Well, you can say that for any grain you are only using a lb of.

The point is that crystal provides sugar points. That sugar is a mix of fermentable and unfermentable. You can actually change that mix as well as the overall extraction rate by mashing the crystal. Those are all points that are often misunderstood on this and other boards.
 
But you have to keep in mind that crystal malts are a small percentage of the total grain bill. Even the 40% vs. 62% only represents around one gravity point in the finished beer.

That was my thinking prior to doing any research just to see if I could get a point or 2 from my specialty grains. But then the question is, does the beer finish sweeter by that couple of points or does mashing the specialty grains make those sugars fermentable along with the extracts? Or, is that percent increase in sugar extraction defined as percent increase in fermentable sugars?
 
The point is that crystal provides sugar points.

The point is that mashed or steeped crystal malts will provide the same flavor, color and body contribution. With the exception of cold steeping or steeping for less time reducing the astringency from darker grains, there is little difference. These are things that will impact the finished beer. The single gravity point you get from mashing won't.

For AG or PM brewers, in most cases it's just easier to throw them in with the rest of the mash. For extract with speciality grain brewers, steeping is fine.
 
"The point is that mashed or steeped crystal malts will provide the same flavor, color and body contribution."

Actually, no. That was the point of me posting that link. A forum member actually tested that and found that mashing the crystal malts dramatically changes the impact. Extraction rates go way up and attenuation does as well.
 
If you steep crystal you will get somewhere between 15 to 18 points from a lb (about .003 for a 5 gallon batch). These will be primarily unfermentable sugars.

If you steep roasted grains (choc, black roast, etc) you will get about 8 to 10 points per lb (about .002 for a 5 gallon batch). Again these will be mostly unfermentable.

All these grains can be mashed, and with decent conversion you can get about 30 points per lb from them (or .006 for a 5 gallon batch). these additional gravity points are fermentable to the same extent that 2-row suagars are fermentable.

Most steeping grains (Crystal, black, roast, chocolate, etc) require a base malt to be included in a mash to provide the enzymes to convert the starches to sugars.
 
Mental note: refer people to this thread when they say extract brewing is less complicated than all grain.

I never thought about the loss of diastatic power from not having a base malt in the mix. Usually you just make sure to have some two row to accompany six row and other specialty grains. What do you do if you don't have that option? Interesting.
 
Mental note: refer people to this thread when they say extract brewing is less complicated than all grain.

I never thought about the loss of diastatic power from not having a base malt in the mix. Usually you just make sure to have some two row to accompany six row and other specialty grains. What do you do if you don't have that option? Interesting.

You steep the grains. It's the same basic technique, and it gives the same basic results.
 
You steep the grains. It's the same basic technique, and it gives the same basic results.

Well yeah...but you aren't getting that interplay between grains that you would in a full mash. DME doesn't have any diastatic power left in it to help convert starch from higher kilned and/or six row grains. Instead you are steeping them at higher temperatures to avoid conversion all together. It was kinda a rhetorical question. Just thinking about how all grain brewers don't really have to think about all of it that much. We know what's going on in that stew of awesomeness and just let it do it's thing.
 
Well yeah...but you aren't getting that interplay between grains that you would in a full mash.

One of the last post from Nilo in the thread referenced here:
. . . The starch conversion from crystal malts was not expected or part of the main purpose of this test. It came out as an extra finding and doesn't seems to be significant when comparing to how much fermentable sugars are within crystal malts.
Comparing average attenuation of each of the three malts tested:
10+2R=77%, avg(10&2R)=64.65, increase of 13%
40+2R=69.5%, avg(40&2R)=59.45, increase of 10%
120+2R=67%, avg(120&2R)=59.1), increase of 8%
The higher the lovibond, less startch, lower gain. . .

And when you consider the 13%, 10% and 8% are from a grain that's maybe 10% of your fermentables they're pretty insignificant numbers. If you want a few more gravity points, throw in a little more extract and steep your specialty malts. Don't complicate a simple process. You'll still get the color, flavor and character that was the purpose of steeping the grain in the first place.

The obsession for high efficiency numbers is somewhat misguided. If and when you're ready to go PM or AG, do it with a recipe that was written for that process.
 
Here's a good question. some brewers steep the specialty grains & mash the rest. The thinking is to get more flavor I think from the crystal/specialty grains. I wondered just now how well that'd work in regard to,say,rauchmalt & chocolate malt? I've been puting them in the mash.
 
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