Way, way, way over the top Sam Adams Utopia clone - #2

Hi All!

Well its that time of year to start discussing batch number 2! PaulTheNurse is ready and willing and my lovely wife said go for it! We will be having another Winter BBQ while brewing a 84 pound of grain 10 gallon batch of beer.

Batch number one is down to like 1022!!!! we are talking 20% here! It really is coming into its own and is starting to mellow. The oak chips and buorbon are setting in nicely, and the maple is there but not overpowering compared to the real thing.


So we know what we did wrong last year (more mash tuns!!!!! No more stuck mashes! and not more barley wine starters. The starter will be a nice basic English pale ale....) We are going to use the same recipe as last year I think, until PTN decides to turn it into some sort of sour lambic with fruit added....

Anyway, its going to be sometime after Christmas, but I figured PTN needed a bit of time to get his bashing of Cape Brewing out of his system before we actually do the brew.

Thougths and comments always welcome.

UPDATE: Ok so a date has been finalized! Jan 23rd. I will be starting heating up water around 8am. As time gets closer I will ask to see whose coming so we can plan food accordingly!

That is just a crazy grainbill.

My biggest beer is not even close to that size and it is not even close to drinkable at 11 months in bottle now.

Since you welcome comments I will say that this part of your post is very sweet and good for PTN :

yeager1977 said:

. . . PaulTheNurse is ready and willing and my lovely wife . . .

Click to expand...

Guess I probably should have written the post when I hadn't had a few and I would have seen that too!!!! Yikes thats a scary disgusting thought.

Not changing the recipe a bit?

On the starter... you could use the regimen suggested by this guy, building up a good sized cake with 1.040 wort and pitching that into a 1.065 beer. Then, wash the cake and re-pitch that into your big beer.

I bet we will do some tweaks to it as time goes on. We have almost 4 months. Not a bad idea stepping it up twice though....

man, this sounds like it would be a fun one to brew

Yeah its a lot of fun we had like 20 peple last time. I think we will do more BBQ this time. We do it in my garage with a few tables and chairs and people bring their rigs and brew and we eat and drink all day. The brew process was about 14 hours last time not including the rig setups the night before

Maybe this time I'll show up with my state of the art all grain brew rig...

Or, leave the cooler at home and I'll have the state of the art extract brew rig.



I forget, did you tell me last Thursday night that this was going to be done on a Saturday?

Paul

Yes it will be a Saturday

So many inappropriate responses jump immediatley to the fore of my mind...


I think we need to bost up the IBU's a smidge. I dipped my tongue in a glass tonight while watching the Pats. It is VERY good. It is missing something. I need to try it a few more times (and I'm willling to make that sacrafice for all of you guys.) but it needs something to pull it together. My wife said it best at CapeBrewings pig roast when she tried it for the first time. "It is a collection of really good parts that hasn't come together as a whole yet." I think she nailed it with that description. It is WICKED good. But it's not perfect. I haven't figured out what is off, my off the cuff take after 2 ounces was that the bitterness was not up to the task of balancing the overwhelming maltyness. There is maltyness, and oak, and maple and a strong alcoholic warmth and it all melds toghether well but seems to be lacking a small element to pull it all together. The best way to describe it 'beer based scotch.' That's a silly description unless you've tasted it. The original SA Utopia I see and taste as beer based Port. Beer based scotch ain't a bad thing. Not at all. This is, in many ways, superior to SAU. But it is missing something to tie it all together. More research is required.

PTN

I'm thinking I'm going for 100+ IBUs when I attempt this. PTN's comments about needing more IBUs seem to jive with my thinking... that's a lot of malt for such a wee bit of hops. I'm thinking 3 ounces of summit for 90 minutes would do the trick. My summit is 18.4% AA.

My plan is to start with a barleywine wort and feed it DME until the primary strain no longer ferments it, then pitch 2 pkgs of EC-1118, feed it 4# of sugar, pitch 2 more packages of EC-1118, and feed it 4# of maple syrup to get to 1.200 OG equiv. Hopefully this will attenuate down to ~1.020.

I'm a wuss, I'll only be attempting 5 gallons. :cross:

Go big or go home, Wuss!

PTN

I know the next brew is a while away yet, but, after reading the last thread, I'd love to get involved. My 38qt mash tun, 10gal kettle, and famous cherry-cola barbecue sauce are all volunteered for the furtherance of the project.

Paul, I hope you are planning to put some of this in one of those whiskey barrels!

My Imperial Stout I sampled again over the weekend, I'll be racking it at three weeks in the barrel. It's orgasmic... oak cubes simply can't compare to the magic of a real barrel.

How in the WORLD did you guess what my plans are???????

PTN

existentialhero said:

I know the next brew is a while away yet, but, after reading the last thread, I'd love to get involved. My 38qt mash tun, 10gal kettle, and famous cherry-cola barbecue sauce are all volunteered for the furtherance of the project.

Click to expand...

Keep your eyes on the thread, we'll post more as the time gets closer.

We have kept pretty much on topic on this version of the WWOTTSAUC thread. Pretty unusual for us, we all love to brew but we really love to bust cajones. But if you look past all of the trash talking clutter that tends to accumulate you actually might find a kernal or two of useful information.

PTN

Ok, here is the recipie that we used on Version #1.

Utopias Clone
23-A Specialty Beer
Author: PTN and Yeager1977

Ingredients:
60.0 lb English 2-row Pale
15 lb 6-Row Brewers Malt
3 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 60L
3 lb Toasted Pale Malt
1 lb Melanoidin Malt
4 lb Munich 10L Malt
1 lb German Smoked
1.8 lb Maple Syrup
2 oz Spalt Spalter (4.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
2 oz Tettnanger (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
2 oz Hallertau (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 1 min
4.0 ea White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

I'll wait for Yeager to chime in here but here is what I'm thinking for Mark II Mod 0...

Use a different yeast or yeasts? We had pretty good luck with the 099, do we mess with success? We pitched a few sachetts of 1118, a highly alcohol tolerant wine yeast part way thru.

More up front bittering? Boost up the initial charge of Spalt Spalter and Tettnanger to 3 oz each and add 2 oz of each to the mash?

Double the Rauch malt?

I think the best thing we can do for ourselves is to back of the 2 row and increase the 6 row by an equal or slightly larger amount. This stuff has a ton of unfermentable sugars, but we should make it as easy as possible for the yeasties to chew up what is chewable. (If we do this should we perhaps consider not increasing the 60 minute hops and just go with the Mash Hops?)

I just bought two of Sacc's corn whiskey barrels especially for the next brew. We need to have around 11 gallons (minimum) of fermented product going into the barrels. Thoughts?

PTN

paulthenurse said:

Use a different yeast or yeasts? We had pretty good luck with the 099, do we mess with success? We pitched a few sachetts of 1118, a highly alcohol tolerant wine yeast part way thru.

Click to expand...

Not sure what the 099 buys you if you go with the 1118, I am planning to use WLP001 in mine and pitch 1118 when it dies off around 14-15% ABV. 1118 could ferment a dead hooker, it's a beast of a yeast.

The 099 was our primary fermentor. I didn't want to use a wine yeast as our primary, I just added it when the 099 seemed to tucker out.

I haven't fermented a dead hooker in far too long, I need to scare one up just for old times sake.

Damn, now you got me reminiscing about the good old days.


Hey, this could be good, my brewing has mostly been done with wild, unpredicatble organisms lately. God only knows what sort of yeasts and fungus we'll find in a dead hooker!


PTN

You know my story... the Contraption isn't mobile (especially since upgrading to the 45 gallon pots) so I can't brew on the go, or I would hop in and we could make a real batch.

I'm guessing I could swing through and mock your every move though. Maybe I'll host the webcast while you guys brew.

Oh... and how 'bout splurging the extra three bucks and tossing some rice hulls in there this year??

paulthenurse said:

I haven't fermented a dead hooker in far too long, I need to scare one up just for old times sake.

Click to expand...

I'm sure there are a few spares in the basement at work if you ask around. Maybe they'll trade one for a 6-pack of the finished product.

Wonder if BeerSmith considers 'em an adjunct?

Ahem. Anyway, I'm doubting if you get any smoke character at all out of the amount of smoked malt you used. Couldn't hurt to up the percentage a bit if you want more of that character. Considering the attenuation you guys saw I can't find any nits to pick.

I know I wouldn't need rice hulls for this in my mash tun, but as I recall you guys used keggles so they probably would help due to the configuration.

So I was thinking about this a bit after reading Paul's posts, after I cleaned my work desk of the snot and coffee that came out of my nose and gave me second degree burns in my sinuses....

I like the idea of adding more hops, and I agree with the additions. I think we should stick with the 099 but give it a lighter starter this time, not a barley wine.... Also We need to remember we added 2 lbs of maple syrup 2 weeks into fermentation and then another 2 lbs 4 weeks into fermentation.

we had 12 gallons of fermentables last year with a yield of just over 9 due to a yeast cake that was six inches thick. We need 11-12 gallons of beer so that we have 1-2 gallons to top off the barrels with.

We did not get a good efficiency last year because of 2 undersized mashtuns that kept getting stuck during the sparge. This year we will use three mashtuns. I agree with increasing the six row slightly, but if we need more liquid we need to increase the 2row by about 10%. So I suggest we add slightly more 2row and spread the mashes out between the three tuns. We will use pauls 2 kegs and my cooler. My coller can hold about 28lbs of grain and liquid, and paus can do about 30-32 each so we should be good there.

I agree rice hulls this year!!! And CB: A webcast could be fun!

So here is the output of a modified recipe from beer tools. I did not add hops to the mash.... I just don't care for that idea, instead I upped the bittering hops to 4oz each

Utopias #2 Clone
23-A Specialty Beer
Author: PTN and Yeager1977
Date: 1/10/09

Size: 13.0 gal
Efficiency: 63.05%
Attenuation: 87.5%
Calories: 622.72 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.184 (1.026 - 1.120)
Terminal Gravity: 1.023 (0.995 - 1.035)
Color: 21.11 (1.0 - 50.0)
Alcohol: 22.1% (2.5% - 14.5%)
Bitterness: 60.0 (0.0 - 100.0)

Ingredients:
70.0 lb English 2-row Pale
20.0 lb 6-Row Brewers Malt
3 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 60L
3 lb Toasted Pale Malt
1 lb Melanoidin Malt
4 lb Munich 10L Malt
2.0 lb German Smoked
4 lb Maple Syrup
4.0 oz Spalt Spalter (4.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
4.0 oz Tettnanger (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
2 oz Hallertau (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 1 min
4.0 ea White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 50.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash in - Liquor: 32.19 gal; Strike: 159.59 °F; Target: 145.0 °F

Notes
Two 15 Gallon Keggels As Mashtuns
1 12 Gal Keggel for hot water
1 12 gallon cooler for hot water
1 13.5 gal keggel for bewing
1 15.5 gal keggel for brewing
1 16.5 gal fermenter


Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.3

yeager1977 said:

I like the idea of adding more hops, and I agree with the additions. I think we should stick with the 099 but give it a lighter starter this time, not a barley wine.... Also We need to remember we added 2 lbs of maple syrup 2 weeks into fermentation and then another 2 lbs 4 weeks into fermentation.

Click to expand...

Yep, really need to step those maple syrup additions like you did before, adding O2 at each addition also probably helps. For a really really high gravity brew, I would start with a 2L 1.040 starter and pitch that into 5 gallons at 1.065. 1.065 seems to be the recommended starter gravity for really high gravity beers, it makes a good tradeoff between yeast health (lower osmotic pressure and lower alcohol than your Barleywine) while still providing enough brix to get a higher cell count. Plus the yeast are more acclimated to starting in a higher gravity than the 1.028-ish plates they were cultured on while getting back rubs from illegal immigrants.

I will be following this thread like a hawk when you 2 get a finalized recipe. Im going to do a variation of it scaled down to 2 gallons. i just aquired two 5 liter oak barrels from OakBarrelsLTD.com medium toast im wondering if i should throw a green whiskey based spirit in them right now so i can mellow out the barrel for when the beer is ready to age in it... any thoughts


Thanks
Paul

I bought two of Saccs barrels for this years batch of Utopia. We're going to put the recipie below in the barrels till mid-March or so when the Utopia will be ready to go in them. Should be a nice enough beer in it's own right and will keep the barrels happy till then.



Barley Barrel Brew
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Strong Ale
Subcategory: American Barleywine
Recipe Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.5 gal.
Volume Boiled: 7.5 gal.
Mash Efficiency: 75 %
Total Grain/Extract: 22.00 lbs.
Total Hops: 7.0 oz.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 424.5
Cost to Brew: $78.20 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.): $1.33 (USD)

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 lbs. Maris Otter Pale
1 lbs. Brown
3 lbs. German Smoked
.5 lbs. Belgian Special B
1.5 lbs. 2-Row Caramel Malt 80L
3 oz. East Kent Goldings (Whole, 5.00 %AA) boiled 90 minutes.
2 oz. East Kent Goldings (Whole, 5.00 %AA) boiled 30 minutes.
2 oz. Hallertau (Whole, 4.50 %AA) boiled 10 minutes.
Yeast: Manchester

Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.105
Terminal Gravity: 1.023
Color: 23.53 SRM
Bitterness: 81.9 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 11.0 %

Chris,

I do want to bump up the smoked malt this year. Whatever we got from it was not even noticable to me. I'd like to see that as a more prominant player, to help balance the residual sweetness, add complexity, etc. I don't want to end up with 10 gallons of 'Essence of Marlboro' but I do want to see some more of that flavor in there.

PTN

hehe, this talk of ridiculous beer makes me ... or maybe its the apfelwein

Yea I bet you could go up to 20% smoked malt in the grainbill and still barely pick it up in this brew it will age so long.

That barleywine looks mighty tasty, the barrel will definitely do it justice!

So I made the starter tonight. 1lb liquid extract and made a 2/3rds of a gallon starter. This will be pitched into a 1050-55 brown ale next week or the week after. It is 2 vials of White Labs 099. Picked them up today. They were dated for Late Jan and early Feb

Talked with my SWMBO and I have 2 dates to start with... Jan 9th or 16th. PTN which works for you and NOT for your bastard son?

We need to finalize the recipe so I can order the grain bill from LHBS.

What no love on this post???? PTN: I am so disappointed in you..... CB: What day is best for you???? the heck with PTN....

i'll be following for insight into maybe attempting this myself.

i am following along as well i am hoping for a finalized recipe soon....Hint hint!
I also am going to try a different aging concept as well i was thinking about putting some oak cubes and chips in cognac, brandy, and maybe port or sherry going along sam adams recipe description. letting these sit the whole time my utopia is fermenting than adding them in for aging. i have a couple small (5L) barrels that are brand new if this idea falls thru

yeager1977 said:

So I made the starter tonight. 1lb liquid extract and made a 2/3rds of a gallon starter.

Click to expand...

That is one badass starter. Good luck on all this. Sounds like some extreme fun is going to happen soon! :cross:

yeager1977 said:

What no love on this post???? PTN: I am so disappointed in you..... CB: What day is best for you???? the heck with PTN....

Click to expand...

I have Weds out of work... and now that my rig will do 40 gallon or so, it might be easier. We would have to brew at my place though.

Probably a bit soon for that starter though

Does that 40 gallons count the 13 gallons that gets abducted by aliens or do we need to figure that amount as an unforeseen extra?

PTN

jppostKW said:

i am following along as well i am hoping for a finalized recipe soon....Hint hint!
I also am going to try a different aging concept as well i was thinking about putting some oak cubes and chips in cognac, brandy, and maybe port or sherry going along sam adams recipe description. letting these sit the whole time my utopia is fermenting than adding them in for aging. i have a couple small (5L) barrels that are brand new if this idea falls thru

Click to expand...

We dd just that! We did about a pond of oak in bourbon for about 5 months then added to the secondary. Using 2 5 gallon barrels this tie though.

yeager1977 said:

So here is the output of a modified recipe from beer tools. I did not add hops to the mash.... I just don't care for that idea, instead I upped the bittering hops to 4oz each

Utopias #2 Clone
23-A Specialty Beer
Author: PTN and Yeager1977
Date: 1/10/09

Size: 13.0 gal
Efficiency: 63.05%
Attenuation: 87.5%
Calories: 622.72 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.184 (1.026 - 1.120)
Terminal Gravity: 1.023 (0.995 - 1.035)
Color: 21.11 (1.0 - 50.0)
Alcohol: 22.1% (2.5% - 14.5%)
Bitterness: 60.0 (0.0 - 100.0)

Ingredients:
70.0 lb English 2-row Pale
20.0 lb 6-Row Brewers Malt
3 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 60L
3 lb Toasted Pale Malt
1 lb Melanoidin Malt
4 lb Munich 10L Malt
2.0 lb German Smoked
4 lb Maple Syrup
4.0 oz Spalt Spalter (4.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
4.0 oz Tettnanger (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
2 oz Hallertau (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 1 min
4.0 ea White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 50.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:03:00 Mash in - Liquor: 32.19 gal; Strike: 159.59 °F; Target: 145.0 °F

Notes
Two 15 Gallon Keggels As Mashtuns
1 12 Gal Keggel for hot water
1 12 gallon cooler for hot water
1 13.5 gal keggel for bewing
1 15.5 gal keggel for brewing
1 16.5 gal fermenter


Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.3

Click to expand...

Chis,
is this the most recent update, the one you were mentioning on the phone this morning? If so I want to bump up the smoked malt to AT LEAST 4 lbs, probably 5. And I want to boost up the 6 row another 8-10 lbs for greater enzymatic action, increased husk filtration and just general all around good karma.

This is based on a finished volume of 13 gallons going into the fermentor. As we have seen, we lose an ass load of volume to yeast. I think we really need a total volume of 15 gallons going into the fermentor to give us a volume that will allow us to fill up the two 23 liter casks and have some small amount left for topping up.

BTW, I'll probably swing by tomorrow evening on my way to the SSBC Holiday pahtay, pick up my half of the bottles and drop off the casks. Your job, Mr Flynn, is to tell Lee Ann that you will be leaving Casa Flynn after the spawn go beddy by and joining me at the pahtay where we can bask in the glow of adulation that will be forthcoming after we pop the corks on a few bottles.

PTN