Beer Ruined

So disappointed. I had brewed an Extra Pale Ale that I had purchased from Northern Brewer. This was the second recipe kit I had made and it turned out to be a disaster. I followed the recipe precisely and followed all suggestions from John Palmer, just like I did the first time when it turned out great. The beer tastes like really sour apple juice, almost vinegary. Everything was sanitized and I made exposure to oxygen was kept to a minimum. I'm stumped. What could have happened?

im pretty new to this but from what ive read any type of sour or vinegar taste indicates some type of infection.

Sorry to hear that...I just kicked a keg of that kit, and it was probably the best beer I ever made.

I'm guessing that you got a sneaky infection in there somehow...sometimes the bottling process is the culprit due to improper sanitation of the valve or the hose or the bottling wand.

Did it taste OK before you bottled it? Did the fermentation process appear to go normally?

You might try sending an email to NB describing your situation and ask for their help. They might give you another kit or a partial credit. They are a really great outfit.

Sounds like an acetobacter infection.

I had one on a stout that I made a year or so ago. It was fantastic up until I bottled. I had learned patience by that point and managed to wait three weeks before cracking one. Ugh. Terrible. I put it down to not sanitizing my bucket spigot adequately, but could have happened at any step.

For me, the lesson was to be beyond-anal with sanitation and I turned to StarSan or SaniClean as my two go-to sanitizers. Haven't had a bad batch since. In times like this - infections, bad batches, bad brewdays - I sit down with Palmer's book and HBTs forums, and review my process. We all get a bit complacent sometimes and thinking about how we do things well carries us beyond the dark times.

I went through a hideous runner runner series of infections - 5 total and it was all on the bottling side. Bucket spigots was one culprit - the ones with the red handle are a bugger to clean. I replaced hoses and spigots, wand, auto syphone and FINALLY, last of all, replaced the bucket which looked 100% smooth.

It was the bucket.

I read how a scratch in the bucket can ruin your batch? Jeez i used a soft sponge one side, and semi rough on the other. Like the light green soft in, then the rough 1/4 inch rough surface, is that a bad sponge to use? I would just be heart broken if my cider went bad!

That's why it's best to use glass carboys

George7845 said:

I read how a scratch in the bucket can ruin your batch? Jeez i used a soft sponge one side, and semi rough on the other. Like the light green soft in, then the rough 1/4 inch rough surface, is that a bad sponge to use? I would just be heart broken if my cider went bad!

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any sponge with a "side" to it is bad for bottling buckets. If it needs scrubbing, soak it with Oxyclean first. Then it will come out nice and clean, no scrubbing needed.

Fingers crossed for your cider -

It also seems that just soaking in warm water does quite well too. I tried it after my last batch, and all of the crud from the krausen came right off, no scrubbing needed.

An apple cidery taste could be from stale extract or too much sugar in the recipe or at bottling. Did the kit have a date on it? Hard to believe anything sits around on a shelf at places like Northern Brewer. Did you open the extract and leave it sitting around?

BTW, you should not even use the green scrubby side on plastic. Get the bucket soaking in detergent as soon as you are done with it. It should not be hard to get anything beer related off with just the sponge.

pkeeler said:

An apple cidery taste could be from stale extract or too much sugar in the recipe or at bottling. Did the kit have a date on it? Hard to believe anything sits around on a shelf at places like Northern Brewer. Did you open the extract and leave it sitting around?

BTW, you should not even use the green scrubby side on plastic. Get the bucket soaking in detergent as soon as you are done with it. It should not be hard to get anything beer related off with just the sponge.

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So I should ask then. I use a dedicated plastic bristled dish scrubber/soap handle to wash out the inside of my bucket. I can't imagine that the plastic bristles would do any damage to a plastic bucket. This isn't bad is it?

bosox said:

That's why it's best to use glass carboys

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for bottling...?

duskb said:

So I should ask then. I use a dedicated plastic bristled dish scrubber/soap handle to wash out the inside of my bucket. I can't imagine that the plastic bristles would do any damage to a plastic bucket. This isn't bad is it?

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There are different types of plastic, sometimes they are harder than others. It's safer to soak and use something much softer to clean.

Burgs said:

for bottling...?

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I'm sorry for not clarifying. To clean the plastic 6 gal fermenter. It's hard to imagine but maybe someone out there has done it and can attest otherwise.

Thanks for all the feedback...This experience was a total bummer, almost to the point of being scared to brew another batch. But then I realized something...I like beer too much to quit!!!!!

Yea. I had two infections in a row in February. It was the tubing I was using transferring to the bottling bucket. Both beers are slimy and undrinkable. Live and learn. Luckily, I had just cut my costs by buying hops by the pound instead of the oz., so I took it in stride.

My next three batches show no signs on infx

Ya know? I've read about how hard it is to screw up brewing beer but, this whole infection thing is really interesting to me.
I mean, think about the relatively short period of time that our beer is in contact with hoses, valves and buckets as compared to the time it is exposed to air, fluctuating temperatures, floating dog hair, kids, SWMBOs and the occasional sneeze.
I can't remember a brew that didn't taste passable before bottling....had some that was pretty nasty after three weeks though, so I guess, there is a lot to be said for cleaning everything until your fingers are wrinkled.
This probably should have been posted in another forum but, it seemed like it fit here.
Greydog

The essential math in case of infection is that yeast take about 1 hour to double, whereas bacteria take 20 minutes. It takes exponentially less time to get 1M bac's as compared to 1M yeast.

0min./1bac, 20/2, 40/4, 60/8, 80/16, 100/32, 120/64, 140/128, 160/256, 180/512, 200/1024, 220/2048, 240/4096, 260/8192, 280/16384, 300/32768, 320/65536, 340/131072, 360/262144, 380/524288, 400/1048576 = 400 min.

0min./1yst, 60/2, 120/4, 180/8, 240/16, 300/32, 360/64, 420/128, 480/256, 540/512, 600/1024, 660/2048, 720/4096, 780/8192, 840/16384, 900/32768, 960/65536, 1020/131072, 1080/262144, 1140/524288, 1200/1048576 = 1200 min. (20 hours)

So, at the 7 hour mark, 1 yeast has multiplied ~100x, whereas the bacteria has multiplied about a million times.

It's even worse than that, too... because bacteria can split an unlimited number of times, but most yeast "scar" when they bud off a shmoo -- so they can only "give birth" about eight times before they go sterile and essentially die... whoops!

That's why you need to pitch so much yeast right away -- because they need the headstart. If they are in the millions to start, and if there are sufficient nutrients and enough oxygen, then they can compete with the bacteria -- but without enough of a headstart they don't stand a chance.

Grinder12000 said:

I went through a hideous runner runner series of infections - 5 total and it was all on the bottling side. Bucket spigots was one culprit - the ones with the red handle are a bugger to clean. I replaced hoses and spigots, wand, auto syphone and FINALLY, last of all, replaced the bucket which looked 100% smooth.

It was the bucket.

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I posted a thread with pictures of the red spigot taken apart. This thing MUST be disassembled, because it WILL get stuff inside, between the red rotating part and the white housing, and you CANNOT clean it out of there without taking it apart.

1. Run the spigot under tap water, as hot as yours gets, for about 10-15 seconds.

2. Pull red handle out of spigot; comes out easy when hot.

3. Clean / sanitize.

4. Reinsert red handle into white housing until it snaps into place; normally, reinsertion doesn't require heating.

I learned this from someone else here on HBT, and when I finally got mine apart, there was crud in the groove inside. I was just very lucky I hadn't infected anything with it.

No bucket trouble, so far.....knock on wood.

duskb said:

So I should ask then. I use a dedicated plastic bristled dish scrubber/soap handle to wash out the inside of my bucket. I can't imagine that the plastic bristles would do any damage to a plastic bucket. This isn't bad is it?

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Potentially. Use a sponge (not the Scotch-Brite side!), and a sponge dedicated only to bucket cleaning. I do, 50 batches, no problems.

bosox said:

That's why it's best to use glass carboys

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I disagree. I've never primaried in anything except a good 'ol white HDPE bucket, and I've done 50 batches with nary a problem. I've used the glass carboys that came with my kit to do secondary, but they get used less and less as I move to primary only for some beers, and Better Bottles to secondary the others. The glass ones are used only for a long-term secondary, like a Winter Ale or Barleywine.

I just took apart my bottling spigot. The red handle one. I took out the red handle and the white (clear) part comes apart too. It looks perfectly clean from the outside. When I got it apart, the white part had black slime in it!!! Glad I saw this thread or most likely my next batch would be ruined.