Saison Hi Nelson! Nelson Hopped Saison w/Hibiscus

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ImageUploadedByHome Brew1406149411.922755.jpg racked this as well as my grand cru to secondary Saturday and added hibiscus and hops. Looks great. Tastes a bit strong withh. Alcohol but should mellow by the end of sept when it is time to drink it


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ImageUploadedByHome Brew1406260829.991751.jpg
The problem with this beer is everybody will drink it. My wife hates beer but has drank a few of these everybody who has come over has liked it. I am down to a 6 pack I can't believe how fast it went.


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Drew off a sample...for the Hell of it. I'll be bottling on Sunday. Held the sample up to a light to check color and clarity...looks good! Moved it back and forth from the sample glass to a beer glass, to open up the aroma. Nice. Flavor, without carb, makes me think I'm drinking a light, but complex red wine.

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mattmmille said:
Drew off a sample...for the Hell of it. I'll be bottling on Sunday. Held the sample up to a light to check color and clarity...looks good! Moved it back and forth from the sample glass to a beer glass, to open up the aroma. Nice. Flavor, without carb, makes me think I'm drinking a light, but complex red wine.
Click to expand...


Yea. You are in trouble. That small sample is going to haunt you till it's ready.


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Unless SWMBO has other plans for me, I should be bottling today! Using corn sugar for priming. Any suggestions on amount? I think I'm at about 6 gallons and have had several brews overcarb, even when I tried to underestimate the priming sugar.

Using Brewer's Friend's calculator and using the Belgian Ales category (closest to saison?), I come up with 3.9 oz corn sugar for 6 gallons at 74F. I'll double check the actual temperature and volume when I get to that point. I don't keg and I know nothing of atmospheres or volumes, but the calculator says that Belgian Ales style varies from 1.9 to 2.4 volumes. Considering past issues, I'm going with 1.9 for calculating. And it has a value of 0.79 volumes assigned as "CO2 in beer". Is that assuming there is already some CO2 still in it after fermentation? I'm debating 3.50 oz for priming (if no values change significantly)...maybe 3.75 oz.
 
mattmmille said:
Unless SWMBO has other plans for me, I should be bottling today! Using corn sugar for priming. Any suggestions on amount? I think I'm at about 6 gallons and have had several brews overcarb, even when I tried to underestimate the priming sugar.

Using Brewer's Friend's calculator and using the Belgian Ales category (closest to saison?), I come up with 3.9 oz corn sugar for 6 gallons at 74F. I'll double check the actual temperature and volume when I get to that point. I don't keg and I know nothing of atmospheres or volumes, but the calculator says that Belgian Ales style varies from 1.9 to 2.4 volumes. Considering past issues, I'm going with 1.9 for calculating. And it has a value of 0.79 volumes assigned as "CO2 in beer". Is that assuming there is already some CO2 still in it after fermentation? I'm debating 3.50 oz for priming (if no values change significantly)...maybe 3.75 oz.
Click to expand...

I used 5oz to carb my 6 gallons and it isnt very very well carbonated. I hate bottling I keg most of my beer but I didnt have an open keg when I brewed the Hibiscus Saison.



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i like my belgian beers a little more carbed than most other styles, especially saisons. i use northern brewers calculator. but probably wouldnt go over 3.0 vol. id suggest picking a few styles between 2.4-3.0 and see what it calls for and make your decision based off that.

mattmmille said:
Unless SWMBO has other plans for me, I should be bottling today! Using corn sugar for priming. Any suggestions on amount? I think I'm at about 6 gallons and have had several brews overcarb, even when I tried to underestimate the priming sugar.

Using Brewer's Friend's calculator and using the Belgian Ales category (closest to saison?), I come up with 3.9 oz corn sugar for 6 gallons at 74F. I'll double check the actual temperature and volume when I get to that point. I don't keg and I know nothing of atmospheres or volumes, but the calculator says that Belgian Ales style varies from 1.9 to 2.4 volumes. Considering past issues, I'm going with 1.9 for calculating. And it has a value of 0.79 volumes assigned as "CO2 in beer". Is that assuming there is already some CO2 still in it after fermentation? I'm debating 3.50 oz for priming (if no values change significantly)...maybe 3.75 oz.
Click to expand...
 
hopbrad said:
i like my belgian beers a little more carbed than most other styles, especially saisons. i use northern brewers calculator. but probably wouldnt go over 3.0 vol. id suggest picking a few styles between 2.4-3.0 and see what it calls for and make your decision based off that.
Click to expand...

Thank's! I like a nice carb, but having had a few overcarbed...despite using less than the amount of priming sugar called for, I'm a bit skittish. I see Northern Brewer suggests 3.2 volumes and calls for almost 8oz. If I go down to 2.4 volumes, it's 5.25oz. *sigh* Decisions, decisions.
 
mattmmille said:
Thank's! I like a nice carb, but having had a few overcarbed...despite using less than the amount of priming sugar called for, I'm a bit skittish. I see Northern Brewer suggests 3.2 volumes and calls for almost 8oz. If I go down to 2.4 volumes, it's 5.25oz. *sigh* Decisions, decisions.
Click to expand...

I agree with hopbrad on the carb. Northern Brewers calculator has never led me astray.
 
Okay, so after getting to the bottling bucket, I only had about 5.25 gallons, so I went with Northern Brewer's recommendation of 5.75oz of corn sugar. All bottled, I came up with 31 regular 12oz bottles and 12 bombers. And I did harvest my Belle Saison Yeast...cold crashed last night. Decanted today and pitched into a new wort and added another harvested jar to it. It's been chugging along all day, so I hope to cold crash it again late tonight and brew a Citra Saison tomorrow. The starter is in the back of the photo, wrapped in a heating pad. And there's 11 bottles of Diet (Truvia) Root Beer there, too...trying something new!

DSC05127.jpg
 
mattmmille said:
Okay, so after getting to the bottling bucket, I only had about 5.25 gallons, so I went with Northern Brewer's recommendation of 5.75oz of corn sugar. All bottled, I came up with 31 regular 12oz bottles and 12 bombers. And I did harvest my Belle Saison Yeast...cold crashed last night. Decanted today and pitched into a new wort and added another harvested jar to it. It's been chugging along all day, so I hope to cold crash it again late tonight and brew a Citra Saison tomorrow. The starter is in the back of the photo, wrapped in a heating pad. And there's 11 bottles of Diet (Truvia) Root Beer there, too...trying something new!
Click to expand...


Are there holes in that foil?
I think I need to swap a couple 12 oz saisons with you. I know I gave it to you before, or I think I did, but now we can compare! Yes?
How did you make your root beer?
 
I used the extract from Atlantic, two tablespoons of sugar, 1/8 t champagne yeast, 20 packets Truvia to make a gallon of the root beer. They say 3 or 4 days at room temp and a couple weeks in cool/dark, refrig before opening.

Definitely up for swapping raison to compare! Needs bottle time, but we can swap any time. I also have someone giving me free fresh cascade hops!
 
Purchased the ingedients to brew this again. I have brewed 70-ish beers and this is among my favorites. I cant imagine it being better with alterations so i ordered Sorachi Ace hops so I can replicate what I did the first time. This went so fast it has to be moved ahead of other planned brews.


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BUCKNUTS said:
Purchased the ingedients to brew this again. I have brewed 70-ish beers and this is among my favorites. I cant imagine it being better with alterations so i ordered Sorachi Ace hops so I can replicate what I did the first time. This went so fast it has to be moved ahead of other planned brews.


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Click to expand...

I think I'm going to brew it normal again and a Sorachi version as well.
 
Got my first taste today, after 3 days on gas at roughly 12 psi. I know it's early, but I couldn't help myself. Had good carbonation already though!

The head was pink, and the beer color was a deep, yet vibrant, red. Didn't get much aroma wise, couldn't pick out anything particular, kinda nondescript.

Flavor - whoa! Punch me in the face with cranberries! Very dry, and very, very tart. The hibiscus/cranberry flavor overwhelms everything else. There may be just a hint of white grape from the Nelson, but if there is, it blends in and is more or less drowned out by the tart hibiscus. Lingers on the palette for a minute or so.

Honestly, I'm pretty underwhelmed by my initial impression. I tasted the hydro sample when I racked to secondary, before adding the tea. At that point, it tasted like a solid saison, with subtle peppery notes from the yeast. It's still early though, so I'll be tasting and taking notes again at 5, 7, 10 and 14 days on gas to see how it improves. At this point though, I'm contemplating a re-brew further down the line with a greatly reduced tea addition, something like 2 or 4 ounces in a quart of water. I'll report back with further tasting notes.
 
Staylow said:
Got my first taste today, after 3 days on gas at roughly 12 psi. I know it's early, but I couldn't help myself. Had good carbonation already though!

The head was pink, and the beer color was a deep, yet vibrant, red. Didn't get much aroma wise, couldn't pick out anything particular, kinda nondescript.

Flavor - whoa! Punch me in the face with cranberries! Very dry, and very, very tart. The hibiscus/cranberry flavor overwhelms everything else. There may be just a hint of white grape from the Nelson, but if there is, it blends in and is more or less drowned out by the tart hibiscus. Lingers on the palette for a minute or so.

Honestly, I'm pretty underwhelmed by my initial impression. I tasted the hydro sample when I racked to secondary, before adding the tea. At that point, it tasted like a solid saison, with subtle peppery notes from the yeast. It's still early though, so I'll be tasting and taking notes again at 5, 7, 10 and 14 days on gas to see how it improves. At this point though, I'm contemplating a re-brew further down the line with a greatly reduced tea addition, something like 2 or 4 ounces in a quart of water. I'll report back with further tasting notes.
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I did the recipe as posted except used Sorachi Ace hops and I can honestly say that while there is definitely a tart crisp flavor from the hibiscus the Saison yeast is there both in the flavor and the aroma. I'm looking forward to re-brewing it because 6 gallons went fast since everybody loved it.
 
I have heard that it gets better after a couple of weeks and even better at a month. I bottled mine 8 days ago...I'll wait until two weeks to open one and evaluate it, but I'm really looking forward to it!
 
OK, so after 5 days on gas, the overwhelming cranberry flavor is subsiding - not much, but a bit. It's still very tart, but now there's just a hint, or suggestion, of a peppery note. Also beginning to get a bit of a fruity aroma. Other than that, it hasn't changed much - yet. I have a feeling it won't be "right" until the two week mark.
 
My first taste of my Hi-Nelson Saison w/Hibiscus! I stuck this in the fridge a little while ago and it's only down to 60F, but it is excellent! The color is hard to capture accurately, but it's beautiful almost like a muscadine grape juice. The head is soft and a thin layer stays on the surface...and it's white, with a little pink/purple tinge to it. The carb is light, but appropriate. I think I got this one right! The aroma is also a bit like a fresh wine/light grape juice and the flavor is light, refreshing, and slightly tart, with a little tannin finish that lingers. I keep thinking of fresh muscadines, but not quite as sweet. This is so good at 2 weeks after bottling, I can't wait to taste it again in a month...and two, if any lasts that long! Winner, Fuzzy!!! Cheers!!!

DSC05267.jpg


DSC05268.jpg
 
Staylow said:
OK, so after 5 days on gas, the overwhelming cranberry flavor is subsiding - not much, but a bit. It's still very tart, but now there's just a hint, or suggestion, of a peppery note. Also beginning to get a bit of a fruity aroma. Other than that, it hasn't changed much - yet. I have a feeling it won't be "right" until the two week mark.
Click to expand...

I can't say that's really cranberry you're getting. Maybe you're tasting tart and thinking that's the best way to describe it. You'll get tartness from the hibiscus. Do you have any leaves left? Make a tea and you'll see what that is like. Pepper is saison, the yeast is a contributor. Nelson hops also contribute to the complex flavors. It was right for me right away. I get a white wine sort of taste with some earthiness and tart from the flowers. It's not sweet per se but it's not too bitter.
 
Hello said:
I can't say that's really cranberry you're getting. Maybe you're tasting tart and thinking that's the best way to describe it. You'll get tartness from the hibiscus. Do you have any leaves left? Make a tea and you'll see what that is like. Pepper is saison, the yeast is a contributor. Nelson hops also contribute to the complex flavors. It was right for me right away. I get a white wine sort of taste with some earthiness and tart from the flowers. It's not sweet per se but it's not too bitter.
Click to expand...

Are you familiar with muscadine grapes? Native grapes to the Southeast. That's what I'm getting. They'll be in season within a couple of weeks...already some at the Farmer's Market.
 
mattmmille said:
My first taste of my Hi-Nelson Saison w/Hibiscus! I stuck this in the fridge a little while ago and it's only down to 60F, but it is excellent! The color is hard to capture accurately, but it's beautiful almost like a muscadine grape juice. The head is soft and a thin layer stays on the surface...and it's white, with a little pink/purple tinge to it. The carb is light, but appropriate. I think I got this one right! The aroma is also a bit like a fresh wine/light grape juice and the flavor is light, refreshing, and slightly tart, with a little tannin finish that lingers. I keep thinking of fresh muscadines, but not quite as sweet. This is so good at 2 weeks after bottling, I can't wait to taste it again in a month...and two, if any lasts that long! Winner, Fuzzy!!! Cheers!!!
Click to expand...

Great looking example Matt! Glad you like it.
 
Hello said:
I can't say that's really cranberry you're getting. Maybe you're tasting tart and thinking that's the best way to describe it. You'll get tartness from the hibiscus. Do you have any leaves left? Make a tea and you'll see what that is like. Pepper is saison, the yeast is a contributor. Nelson hops also contribute to the complex flavors. It was right for me right away. I get a white wine sort of taste with some earthiness and tart from the flowers. It's not sweet per se but it's not too bitter.
Click to expand...

I did taste the tea before I dumped it in my beer, as I'd never had Hibiscus anything before then - it definitely tastes like cranberries, though minus any kind of sweetness. Yes, it is very tart, but lots of things are tart without tasting like cranberries. If you scroll back a page or two, I posted about my tasting at the three day mark - the cranberry flavor was completely overwhelming, to the point that I couldn't taste anything else, at all.

I mentioned the pepper as I was expecting it to be there, since it is a saison. It was certainly there when I tasted the hydrometer sample before adding the tea. Though I'm wondering if I actually taste it at this point, or if I taste because I'm looking for it.

I need to try it again as it's been two weeks today on gas.
 
OK, got another taste. It's come a long ways. It's kinda wine-like, but that's more due to the dryness rather than the Nelson, which I still really don't get. It's still tart, but not so much. The cranberry has been dialed back from 11 to more like a 5 - it's there, and it's assertive, but not overpowering. The peppery note from the yeast comes through better now, and I'm even picking up a slight spicyness from my rye addition.

It's definitely solid, but I think if and when I rebrew this, I'm going to scale the hibiscus back to 2 oz in a quart of water, add to secondary and let it sit for 2 weeks before adding the dry hops.
 
ImageUploadedByHome Brew1409363096.229441.jpga
Uncarbonated sample of my second batch.I decided to add brett b to it because I can never leave well enough alone. This batch is even drier than first batch finishing at 1.002. It is very crisp, dry, tart and delicious even uncarbonated. Definitely another winner I might need to get a 3rd batch brewing soon.


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BUCKNUTS said:
View attachment 220778a
Uncarbonated sample of my second batch.I decided to add brett b to it because I can never leave well enough alone. This batch is even drier than first batch finishing at 1.002. It is very crisp, dry, tart and delicious even uncarbonated. Definitely another winner I might need to get a 3rd batch brewing soon.


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Click to expand...

Brett B, that sounds very nice!
 
I dropped off a bottle for the heads brewer at Fortnight Brewing not too long ago. I stopped by yesterday to see if he had tried it. He really liked it and was impressed. He had sharred it with another staff brewer there who also liked it...said he had been looking to try to use hibiscus in a brew and this was the best example he had tasted ! I'm very happy, to say the least!
 
Stopped by Raleigh Brewing Co. and Atlantic Brew Supply today to pick up ingredients for a porter. Brought a couple samples along and the Hi Nelson was a hit with the brew shop's guru!
 
My primary is cruising as we speak (4 days and some serious funky smells at 75F). Normally I never transfer to secondary (lazy and clarity isn't my priority) and just dry hop in the primary. Can I just rack the beer into the tea in the bottling bucket after I dry hop? Or do you think are there natural sugars in the tea which would over carb the bottles?


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There was some discussion that there was uncertainty about any natural sugars in the dried hibiscus flowers, but I think it has been shown not to be the case. Should be okay; however, I did find a source online that I was considering ordering from that DID have hibiscus dried with sugar. Just don't make that mistake...check your flowers for any other ingredients!
 
mattmmille said:
There was some discussion that there was uncertainty about any natural sugars in the dried hibiscus flowers, but I think it has been shown not to be the case. Should be okay; however, I did find a source online that I was considering ordering from that DID have hibiscus dried with sugar. Just don't make that mistake...check your flowers for any other ingredients!
Click to expand...

Great point Matt I've made Aqua de jamaica many times and I've used the hibiscus(jamaica) with added sugar to make it and it could definitely cause carbonation issues.
 
BUCKNUTS said:
Great point Matt I've made Aqua de jamaica many times and I've used the hibiscus(jamaica) with added sugar to make it and it could definitely cause carbonation issues.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the quick replies! I am extremely excited. I've enjoyed hibiscus tea for years and never thought to put it in beer.


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I brewed a saison using Nelson and Galaxy and Belle Saison yeast, finally got it kegged and find that it is lacking something. Do you think that you could add the tea straight to the keg? I'll probably brew a test batch to add to a glass (like a berliner wiesse) to make sure it adds what I'm looking for, but do you think it would be ok to do this late?
 
cmoewes said:
I brewed a saison using Nelson and Galaxy and Belle Saison yeast, finally got it kegged and find that it is lacking something. Do you think that you could add the tea straight to the keg? I'll probably brew a test batch to add to a glass (like a berliner wiesse) to make sure it adds what I'm looking for, but do you think it would be ok to do this late?
Click to expand...


That should be fine. The second batch I made I added the tea to the keg and racked the beer in to the keg so I cant see why it would be that much difference if you added it now.


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