Alpine Nelson Clone Attempt

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Don't use that one...

http://hopville.com/recipe/408239/american-ipa-recipes/golden-rye-nz-hopped-ipa-actually-brewed

That one is more accurate as it is supposedly from Pat himself.

I don't know about that. I read that discussion and about the emails that went back and forth. Sounds questionable to me and there is a lot left up in the air if that conversation indeed actually happened. I had a similar conversation with Jamie from Ninkasi, but the information he gave about Tricerahops actually made sense, and I have the email to prove it. Not trying to be a jerk, just wanting to do the real beer justice in both practical truth and respect for the original brewer.

Other than a drier 1.009 FG, which I doubt the homebrewer achieved since it projects finishing at 1.017, I don't see that one producing better or more accurate results. Besides, Alpine's website says it begins at 1.065, so with 7.1% abv, that means it must finish at 1.012. With no sugar used, I project a low mash temp (certainly lower than 153).

The above version seems like a hack recipe with 4 oz. of 6-row in a 9 gallon batch, and three types of 2-rows. Nelson is also not that pale at 4 SRM. The dryhop amount is insane and the IBUs are about 30 lower than the real beer. It makes more sense that big multistage dryhop was done in shorter, chunked time frames. My dryhop is based on 0.9 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer. As a point of reference, Pliny the Younger is based on 1.0 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer. The Golden Rye NZ Hopped version you posted above is based on a 2.0 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer!! Sounds like the euphoric high of having an uber-hopped beer was what created the wow factor to me. In closing, I can see a lot of stuff that's probably dead wrong for the real clone, most noticably the boil off rate is +.4 liters, so he's topping off. A big no-no.
 
I don't know about that. I read that discussion and about the emails that went back and forth. Sounds questionable to me and there is a lot left up in the air if that conversation indeed actually happened. I had a similar conversation with Jamie from Ninkasi, but the information he gave about Tricerahops actually made sense, and I have the email to prove it. Not trying to be a jerk, just wanting to do the real beer justice in both practical truth and respect for the original brewer.

Other than a drier 1.009 FG, which I doubt the homebrewer achieved since it projects finishing at 1.017, I don't see that one producing better or more accurate results. Besides, Alpine's website says it begins at 1.065, so with 7.1% abv, that means it must finish at 1.012. With no sugar used, I project a low mash temp (certainly lower than 153).

The above version seems like a hack recipe with 4 oz. of 6-row in a 9 gallon batch, and three types of 2-rows. Nelson is also not that pale at 4 SRM. The dryhop amount is insane and the IBUs are about 30 lower than the real beer. It makes more sense that big multistage dryhop was done in shorter, chunked time frames. My dryhop is based on 0.9 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer. As a point of reference, Pliny the Younger is based on 1.0 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer. The Golden Rye NZ Hopped version you posted above is based on a 2.0 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer!! Sounds like the euphoric high of having an uber-hopped beer was what created the wow factor to me. In closing, I can see a lot of stuff that's probably dead wrong for the real clone, most noticably the boil off rate is +.4 liters, so he's topping off. A big no-no.

i know several people have tried to get info from Pat about any of his beers and he's very tight lipped, I found it odd that he would reply to a random email asking but wouldn't give info to regular customers
 
they made a video of them making it

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fPaRrTn7yE[/ame]
 
I don't know about that. I read that discussion and about the emails that went back and forth. Sounds questionable to me and there is a lot left up in the air if that conversation indeed actually happened. I had a similar conversation with Jamie from Ninkasi, but the information he gave about Tricerahops actually made sense, and I have the email to prove it. Not trying to be a jerk, just wanting to do the real beer justice in both practical truth and respect for the original brewer.

Other than a drier 1.009 FG, which I doubt the homebrewer achieved since it projects finishing at 1.017, I don't see that one producing better or more accurate results. Besides, Alpine's website says it begins at 1.065, so with 7.1% abv, that means it must finish at 1.012. With no sugar used, I project a low mash temp (certainly lower than 153).

The above version seems like a hack recipe with 4 oz. of 6-row in a 9 gallon batch, and three types of 2-rows. Nelson is also not that pale at 4 SRM. The dryhop amount is insane and the IBUs are about 30 lower than the real beer. It makes more sense that big multistage dryhop was done in shorter, chunked time frames. My dryhop is based on 0.9 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer. As a point of reference, Pliny the Younger is based on 1.0 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer. The Golden Rye NZ Hopped version you posted above is based on a 2.0 oz. dryhop per gallon of beer!! Sounds like the euphoric high of having an uber-hopped beer was what created the wow factor to me. In closing, I can see a lot of stuff that's probably dead wrong for the real clone, most noticably the boil off rate is +.4 liters, so he's topping off. A big no-no.

and he does top off
 
And this is why we don't use recipes on other sites... all the hopville links are dead! Would love to know if anyone has gotten far with Nelson. I tried it while visiting the leftcoast, and was spectacular.
 
I've been studying that video. Here are some facts:
1 sack of Weyerman Carabohemian
1 sack of Simpson's Maris Otter
3 sacks of Rolled Oat flakes
3 five gallon pails of unidentified grain
2 6 gallon pails of unidentified grain
(4 of which (two 6gal & two 5gal) are "identified as Rye" at one point in the video *but could be misleading)
Base malt 2 row *unspecified quantity
OG 1.065
ABV 7.0%

with a total grain bill of approximately 850lbs.

10 Bbl system
25 Bbl fermenters out back (for Nelson as stated in the video)
They brew twice to get 12 Bbl from each batch.

Batch size: ?
Pulled house yeast off of yeast cake from 4 to 5 day old batch of Nelson.
Added Clarity ferm before adding yeast to wort
FWH: NZ hop variety (unspecified) 2.0 qts pellets *all I could see was volume*
2nd hop addition after 60 minutes: 1 qt. Nelson Sauvin + Whirlfloc
3rd hop addition at 75 minutes: 1 qt. Southern Cross + Yeast Nutrient
4th hop addition at (90 ? ) min: 3 qt. Nelson Sauvin + 2 qt. Southern Cross
Then flameout/knockout.
Cool & O2 wort/transfer to 25Bbl fermenter.
Ferments 7 to 10 days.
Then cold crash & remove yeast cake.
Dry hop w/ (2) 5 gallon buckets of unidentified hops for 2 weeks *circulated*

Only a few unknowns after watching this video.

1. If the truth was told about everything in those buckets, then only (1) 5 gallon bucket of grain is unknown. That's a small % of the grain bill and since they're brewing in S.D. a VERY hoppy beer I'll lean towards acidulated malt as my guess.

2. FWH addition. Now, it's claimed to be an all NZ hop beer so this one can't be too hard to calculate and work backwards toward knowing all the numbers on hop additions 2 through 4.

3. Dry hop. Well, it's a Nelson beer with a big Nelson nose, I would lean towards the KISS principle on that one.

I'm going to start plugging in some numbers on brew software to see how close I can get to the numbers making a few assumptions after scaling down from a 850lb grain bill. :rockin:
 
I've been studying that video. Here are some facts:
1 sack of Weyerman Carabohemian
1 sack of Simpson's Maris Otter
3 sacks of Rolled Oat flakes
3 five gallon pails of unidentified grain
2 6 gallon pails of unidentified grain
(4 of which (two 6gal & two 5gal) are "identified as Rye" at one point in the video *but could be misleading)
Base malt 2 row *unspecified quantity
OG 1.065
ABV 7.0%

with a total grain bill of approximately 850lbs.

10 Bbl system
25 Bbl fermenters out back (for Nelson as stated in the video)
They brew twice to get 12 Bbl from each batch.

Batch size: ?
Pulled house yeast off of yeast cake from 4 to 5 day old batch of Nelson.
Added Clarity ferm before adding yeast to wort
FWH: NZ hop variety (unspecified) 2.5 qts pellets *all I could see was volume*
2nd hop addition after 60 minutes: 1 qt. Nelson Sauvin + Whirlfloc
3rd hop addition at 75 minutes: 1 qt. Southern Cross + Yeast Nutrient
4th hop addition at (90 ? ) min: 3 qt. Nelson Sauvin + 2 qt. Southern Cross
Then flameout/knockout.
Cool & O2 wort/transfer to 25Bbl fermenter.
Ferments 7 to 10 days.
Then cold crash & remove yeast cake.
Dry hop w/ (2) 5 gallon buckets of unidentified hops for 2 weeks *circulated*

Only a few unknowns after watching this video.

1. If the truth was told about everything in those buckets, then only (1) 5 gallon bucket of grain is unknown. That's a small % of the grain bill and since they're brewing in S.D. a VERY hoppy beer I'll lean towards acidulated malt as my guess.

2. FWH addition. Now, it's claimed to be an all NZ hop beer so this one can't be too hard to calculate and work backwards toward knowing all the numbers on hop additions 2 through 4.

3. Dry hop. Well, it's a Nelson beer with a big Nelson nose, I would lean towards the KISS principle on that one.

I'm going to start plugging in some numbers on brew software to see how close I can get to the numbers making a few assumptions after scaling down from a 850lb grain bill. :rockin:

ha that's awesome you brew a clone I'll send you a bottle of the real deal to compare
 
The narrator stated "20% rye component"

Thoughts?

That sounds about right. I remember one time hearing 17%, right around the first few batches of it back in '08'ish.

I emailed Alpine once asking for their malt bill for O'Brien's IPA and they got back to me within a couple days with percentages. I was pretty surprised.
 
Any chance of you posting your resulting recipe? I just made the trek to alpine last weekend and was blown away by Nelson. Thanks for your detective work. I have to brew this!
 
I haven't been able to brew this yet, heck I don't even have the ingredients.

I will say this though:

The bucket of unidentified grain is either acidulated malt or dextrine malt. The bittering addition is a NZ strain known for being a good choice for bittering and it was around in 2003 when Pat visited NZ. The hop bill for this beer is Nelson & Southern Cross, dry hop is the same. 1 qt. of hops is about 1 lb.

That's all I'm going to say.

After I brew this I will report back my recipe and include tasting notes.
 
I am fortunate enough to have Nelson on tap at a local restaurant and am a huge fan of the beer. I am also very interested to see how your recipe turns out.

Anyone care to comment on their use of Whirlfloc? The oats will create a significant protein haze, and in fact the final product is hazy like a wheat beer. How much more hazy would this beer be without finings?

Rye has a typical SRM of 4.70, and at 17-20% of the grain bill I don't think will be enough to affect color (I haven't had a chance to play with BS, so I could be wrong). Any chance the 5th mystery bucket is C40?
 
I am fortunate enough to have Nelson on tap at a local restaurant and am a huge fan of the beer. I am also very interested to see how your recipe turns out.

Anyone care to comment on their use of Whirlfloc? The oats will create a significant protein haze, and in fact the final product is hazy like a wheat beer. How much more hazy would this beer be without finings?

Rye has a typical SRM of 4.70, and at 17-20% of the grain bill I don't think will be enough to affect color (I haven't had a chance to play with BS, so I could be wrong). Any chance the 5th mystery bucket is C40?


I should go back and correct that. It should say Rolled Rye flakes

There is 20% rye in the grist. 10% rye malt, 10% rolled rye flakes...
 
That makes more sense. Thanks for confirming.

I'm still wondering where the haze comes from, especially with their use of finings. Originally I was thinking they used flaked wheat.

Anyway, looking forward to what you come up with. This beer ranks right up there with the best of them.
 
After having another bomber of this last night I wouldn't be surprised if the mystery grain was dextrin malt. The beer has a really nice creamy mouthfeel. I guess that could come from the flaked oats (or flaked rye)? I didn't even know there was such a thing as flaked rye.




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That makes more sense. Thanks for confirming.

I'm still wondering where the haze comes from, especially with their use of finings. Originally I was thinking they used flaked wheat.

Anyway, looking forward to what you come up with. This beer ranks right up there with the best of them.


I have no idea what yeast they are using. It's gotta be something clean I'm guessing... Maybe a clean low flocc'ing yeast strain?

Also, it's a 2 week dry hop at a ratio of about 1 oz per gallon. That's going to leave some residual "floaties" I don't care how well you fine the beer.
 
I looked up carabohemian, and that grain is pretty dark (74L). If they are using it, they must not be using very much (mayber 1-2%?) because the finished beer is pretty pale, maybe slighlty orangish.
 
I looked up carabohemian, and that grain is pretty dark (74L). If they are using it, they must not be using very much (mayber 1-2%?) because the finished beer is pretty pale, maybe slighlty orangish.


I agree - I'm planning on using around 3% C60. I'm just waiting on the 2014 Nelson to go up for sale. I'm using Summer hops rather than southern cross. I buy hops by the pound and I'm not interested in southern cross
 
After working the recipe through some software and going back over the video I have come to realize the sack of what I thought was carabohemian was probably actually Acidulated Malt.

I also agree that this recipe needs some dextrine malt as well. How much is the question...
 
Dextrine malt will add a small amount of body but it's mostly for residual sweetness from dextrins that are the sugar structures that are resistant to enzyme action that remain in the finished beer.
 
Dextrine malt will add a small amount of body but it's mostly for residual sweetness from dextrins that are the sugar structures that are resistant to enzyme action that remain in the finished beer.

that is incorrtect. dextrin malt is not supposed to provide sweetness. it mostly for body and head retention.
 
im not gonna get into it with you over something this simple.

carapils/dextrin malt is designed solely for increasing body and head retention. the residual sugars left behind do not add to sweetness. this is a common fact.

here it is straight from the horses mouth:
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Carapils.htm

"Carapils® Malt from Briess is the top performing malt in the dextrine-malt category. Try it and you'll find that it does a unparalleled job of consistently increasing foam, improving head retention and enhancing mouthfeel without adding flavor or color to your beer style. "
 
The product Alpine is using is a Weyermann brand malt. Likely Carafoam. Will it aid in head retention? Yes. Will it leave residual sugars (dextrine)? Yes. Why would this be important in a rye forward ale? Rye will tend to leave a beer tasting dry if used in large quantities (20% right?).

I think the use of the dextrine malt is to put back some of that body and give a fuller mouthfeel since the rye tends to to the exact opposite. Carafoam is malty-sweet with hints of caramel as well. If used in sufficient quantities it's perceived body and flavor will be that of a sweet full bodied wort.

Attached is the specs on Weyermann Carafoam.

WeyermannCarafoam.jpg
 
^ill agree with you on Carafoam adding a light sweetness.

Good point about Rye creating dry taste. Could be on to something there
 
That sure looks like caraaroma in the pic. 130L, pretty dark. Imagine just the one sack.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
CaraAroma has two A's in the middle. Pretty clear in the pic that bag only has 1 A in the middle. Pretty much has to be CARAFOAM. The F is on a fold so it looks weird, but the O and A in FOAM are pretty easily recognizable. No way on the M, it's just a blur.

The buckets are definitely not Rye. That's not what Rye looks like. It's some sort of barley, and looks pretty plump. I'm guessing it's a mix of British Crystals.
 
Bump. I just made it to Alpine this weekend and now I cant wait to try and brew Nelson, or any of their other beers. Hoppy Birthday especially. I've got a few bottles of Nelson I will be enjoying in the near future.
 
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