Hopbursting - Just Late Addition?

Hello homebrewers and beer enthusiasts alike. I have found myself making a disproportionately large amount of hoppy beers lately under various guises (IPA's, PA's, rye IPA's....etc.) and subsequently reading a lot about the methods of achieving great hoppy flavors.

So this is a dual purposed post -
1) I see a lot of people referring to hopbursting and upon closer examination of the process - it appears they are simply referring to your good old fashioned late boil additions for flavor? Right? With the caveat that the bittering is supposed to come from the disproportionately LARGE additions.

2) Trouble shooting! I made an IPA with the following stats ~1 mo ago:

Grain:
10lb Pale 2row
1lb Cr 60

Single Infusion Mash w/ 160 degree strike water for 1 hr (total volume = 5.034 gallons after hot water additions to maintain temp). Batch sparge w/ 170 degree water - can't remember volume - less than mash vol though

Hops:
.5 oz Magnum 13.7 AA - 60 min
same but 30 min
.5 oz Falc Flight 11.4 AA - 20 min
2 oz Cascade 6.2 AA - 20 min
.5 oz Falc Flight 11.4 AA - 10 min
.25 oz Amarillo 8.7 AA - 5 min
.5 oz Simcoe 13 AA - 5 min

1oz Cascade Dry
.5oz Simcoe Dry

Gave it a fermentation schedule that I did not want to (relatives came to town and made me busy)
1 wk Primary
2 wks Secondary
~1 wk Bottle

Results: Earthy flavors with an utter lack of citrus in the nose or on my tongue.... robbed is the best word to describe my reactions. Can anyone help a guy out with his deficient hoppiness blues? The question I hope ties nicely into my first question concerning hopbursting - as I am exploring it as a potential solution.


Thanks!

1) The term "Hopburst" seems to have originated in a post on an older forum, brewboard.com. It is essentially using nothing but late additions.

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=26859 <-- Start of thread about "Overloading Hops" (All late additions)

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=26859&st=105 <-- First mention of "hopburst"!


2) Were the hops old?

As Nagorg said, with hop bursting you don't add a traditional 60-90 minute "bittereing" charge at all. So many of the newer hops are high in alpha so hop bursting doesn't require a extreme amount. Just yesterday I brewed an all-Citra PA where the earliest addition was at 20 minutes, the total boil hops are only 4 ounces, and I've still got 45 IBU.

Re your IPA, I think your late additions are too small. Simple adjustment would be to move your 10 and 20 minute additions to 5 minutes (or later, even flameout) and move your 30 minute Magnum back to keep the same IBU.

Try "hop stands" aka "steeping hops".

Can you name a commercial brew your trying to emulate?

I agree that your late additions are very small if you looking for aroma. Citrusy would include some late centennial I would think. Your dry hop addition is small too.

I'm with CaptainDamage and grathan, your biggest problem is that you simply don't have enough hops.

I modified your recipe to the schedules and amounts I used on Thursday for a nice hoppy pale ale. I used Mosaic and Amarillo, 4 oz in the flameout/hopstand additions and one ounce of Mosaic for bittering.

The airlock smells like a tangerine and fruit punch Hi C juicebox right now and I haven't even dryhopped yet.

Amarillo4BRKFST said:

Hops:
1.5oz Magnum 13.7 AA - 60 min

0.5oz Cascade 6.2 AA -0 min (10min stand before chilling)
0.5oz Falc Flight 11.4 AA - 0 min(10min stand before chilling)
0.5oz Amarillo 8.7 AA - 0 min(10min stand before chilling)
0.5oz Simcoe 13 AA - 0min(10min stand before chilling)

0.5oz Cascade 6.2 AA -0 min (5min stand before chilling)
0.5oz Falc Flight 11.4 AA - 0 min (5min stand before chilling)
0.5oz Amarillo 8.7 AA - 0 min (5min stand before chilling)
0.5oz Simcoe 13 AA - 0min (5min stand before chilling)

1oz Cascade Dry
1oz Simcoe Dry

Click to expand...

We have several of our customers that are playing around with hop bursting. The first I ever even heard of it was about 6-8 months ago and really what they are all doing is VERY large very late additions. Were talking 4-5+ oz of hops the last 15 min or less. I have been able to taste a few IPA's that were brought back in the store and some have been KILLER!. I like it for the most part because were seeing interesting aromas you wouldn't get any other way. But you do use a LOT of hops.

Cheers
Jay

Maybe you should try more flameout hops and a hopstand. Try at least 2 oz (if not more) at flameout and then at least a 30 minute hop stand. I did a 60 minute hop stand on a recent hoppy red ale and it turned out awesome! Then I usually do 2-3 oz of dry hops.

But you do use a LOT of hops.

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But 4-5 ounces of hops in a 5 gallon batch is not an excessive quantity! Again, we're taking advantage of the fact that many of the hops we use for hop bursting are high alpha. The Citra I used in my PA yesterday has an aa rating of 13.5%! If I was going to make a "British" style version of this beer, using East Kent Goldings instead of Citra, I might use the same total amount of EKG, but I'd have to put 2 ounces of it at 60 minutes, and Id' lose most of it's aroma.

Captain Damage said:

But 4-5 ounces of hops in a 5 gallon batch is not an excessive quantity! Again, we're taking advantage of the fact that many of the hops we use for hop bursting are high alpha. The Citra I used in my PA yesterday has an aa rating of 13.5%! If I was going to make a "British" style version of this beer, using East Kent Goldings instead of Citra, I might use the same total amount of EKG, but I'd have to put 2 ounces of it at 60 minutes, and Id' lose most of it's aroma.

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Ohh man I totally agree its not an "excessive" amount of hops for sure!

Cheers
Jay

Thank you all for your replies - to address some things said:

Hops were not old - purchased them from the lhbs maybe ~1wk before brewday and they circulate quickly there
I was afraid deficient quantity was ultimately a prime suspect; hoping that would not be the case. However I see a few of the above posts referencing ~4/5 oz - which I was pretty close to @ 3.75oz 20 min or later additions. I can see how this # can be increased - and will be - but it doesn't seem far off from some of the suggestions. However the earthy flavors I got still elude explanation? Seemed like a muddled, earthy, hoppiness that lacked clarity of flavor.

I have read about making hop teas, and even read that one poster's thread from 2010 about using a French coffee press to do so but have not looked into a hop stand yet - that is on today's to do list.

I do agree that you could probably use more late additions, including especially around the 0-minute mark.

Beyond that, it's hard to say for sure without having been there and without tasting the beer. One thing is that after only a week in the bottle, you may still need another week (or two) before the beer really comes together. The earthiness could have been due in part to suspended yeast that will precipitate (not likely, though, unless you can see yeast) or flavors that will work themselves out in the next week. Or it could be due to another problem, like sanitation or too high a fermentation temperature. Again, no way to really know without tasting the beer.

It's also possible that you just picked a combination of hops that isn't that great. Using a lot of different varieties could lead to incoherence. And it's possible that the hops you used just weren't that great--hops are an agricultural product, after all, just like fruits and vegetables, and some are better than others.

So, that's probably not the explanation you were looking for, but some of those things could be true!

Also to follow up - I made another couple IPA's before posting this thread - and one was ready to crack open yesterday. Hop flavor is on target with grapefruit/citrusy goodness. One problem - TX heat = diacetyl...

On to the next troubleshoot!

Thanks again everyone for posting. I am going to ramp up the numbers and explore some hopstands/teas.

Thanks for the post - I was initially concerned about the combination of those being... less than optimal? as in backwards synergy. 1 + 1 = - 4.

Those hops individually are all pretty popular but the combo/qty's might have been off and preventing any one of them from, 'struttin their stuff'. I do also have to deal w/ abysmal ferm temps in central TX w/ no cellar or cold storage.

But a point I was curious about is: If aging/fermentation dissipates hop flavor - how can aging improve flavor? I understand how it helps give the yeast time to clean up compounds that contribute to off flavor but I don't understand how it improves hop flavor. This question is of constant consternation to me. I often wonder why anyone would even add late boil hops at all if the CO2 leaving the fermenter in primary drives off hop flavor and aroma? I know that is sort of an extreme example/solution but why sacrifice any hop flavor if you don't have to? One answer I could contemplate would be the presence of heat required to extract the volatile oils - but most seems to have very low heat thresholds before dissipating so that would be counter-intuitive.

Thanks again for all your answers fellow brewers.

Haha, I mean it's a good question, but I don't think I can help you on the theoretical side. To me, it's an empirical result: very hoppy beers tend to reach a flavor peak after 2-3 weeks in the bottle. Before that, and they may taste "green," and after that, and they start to lose their aroma. My axiom is: once it is ready, drink it as soon as possible. A beer that's just a week in the bottle might not be ready yet. Put another way, it seems to me you're seeking a balance between driving off the "off" flavors of young fermentation, which improve with time, and hop aroma/flavor, which gets worse with time.

That said, there are some styles that are hoppy but age for a long time--e.g. American barleywine, some traditional imperial IPAs. But the result you get from those is not the same hop aroma you'd have in a really fresh IPA. You do get some hop flavor and aroma, but it's quite different, and not the same as those beers would be young.

I should listen to my own advice. I just tried a pale ale I bottled a week ago, and it had a really muddy flavor. Wait a week!

Yes that balance is the quest that continues to plague me. I have gleaned another question from one of your repeated messages though concerning bottling - is there any evidence out there to suggest hop flavor/aroma dissipates more quickly in ____________ vs. _____________ ? (carboys/bottles/etc.?)

thanks for your continued correspondence motorneuron.

I've read that 02 absorbing caps rob the flavor more quickly.

A rigorous fermentation can rob flavor. Basically if you can smell the hops in the room then that is flavor that is not coming back.

grathan said:

I've read that 02 absorbing caps rob the flavor more quickly.

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I don't know, I swear by those things. I had an IPA take third in a state-wide invitational and it had been in the bottle a month with 02 absorbing caps. If anything, they help IMO, hoppy, light colored beers are probably more susceptible to oxidation.

I just brewed an IPA and added an ounce each of Amarillo, Simcoe, and Citra at flameout. When I racked to secondary 14 days later there was a ton of aroma in the beer. I may not have even needed to dry hop because the aroma was so strong but I did anyways since I had already purchased the leaf hops.

Well if a good vigorous fermentation robs flavor - then why not make every hoppy beer 'hop tea'd'? Granted I have found little to no reliable info on how to successfully impart great hop flavor with the tea, and even when I find someone who gives detailed instructions and reports results, half the posters on the thread vehemently disagree.

I know adding no hops pre-primary seems extreme but if it drives off flavor why not add them all after primary? Am I going crazy?

Amarillo4BRKFST said:

Well if a good vigorous fermentation robs flavor - then why not make every hoppy beer 'hop tea'd'? Granted I have found little to no reliable info on how to successfully impart great hop flavor with the tea, and even when I find someone who gives detailed instructions and reports results, half the posters on the thread vehemently disagree.

I know adding no hops pre-primary seems extreme but if it drives off flavor why not add them all after primary? Am I going crazy?

Click to expand...

Just dump 4 oz. of hops in your next beer at flameout and you will have none of these concerns anymore. Trust me.

I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of flavor and aroma that is lost during primary fermentation. It's really not that big of a deal. Sure I guess you lose a little, but it's been like that since beer was invented (well I guess since people started adding hops to beer actually, but that's still a really long time) so recipes and general brewing practice account for that.

I will go ahead and put some more trust in conventional technique - and rev up the additions @ flameout. Will report results.

Thank you all for your suggestions. I wish there was more debate on the issue of lost flavor during primary going on out there. I am still really curious about it.

In fact I am going to add Cascade @ flameout to the pale ale that is currently mashing.

Amarillo4BRKFST said:

I will go ahead and put some more trust in conventional technique - and rev up the additions @ flameout. Will report results.

Thank you all for your suggestions. I wish there was more debate on the issue of lost flavor during primary going on out there. I am still really curious about it.

In fact I am going to add Cascade @ flameout to the pale ale that is currently mashing.

Click to expand...

Nice! Don't be afraid to add too much!

You can't do anything about the aroma lost in primary anyway. The best advice I heard was from Tasty Mcdole. If your recipe isn't hoppy enough, just add more hops!

what is your transfer process like? I saw you used a secondary. Are you careful to purge O2? Oxidation can do bad things for hop flavor and aroma. Also, do you whirlpool? Hopstand?

I have not whirlpooled/hopstanded until this very day with a PA I made - and unfortunately I do not purge O2 - I try to prevent oxidization in ways I know how but have not encountered any information on how to purge O2 while transferring wort/beet or otherwise. Is there a good thread I should know about?

Thank you

I went ahead and added an oz each of Cascade/Amarillo just a few min post FO in addition to another oz each @ 5 min. This pale should be good. Thanks Smizak

Let us know how it comes out

I always go with the hop-bursting method and really have seen nothing wrong occur. I've only recently gotten into hoppy beers, so I really haven't even been pushing things far enough to give a good recommendation, but I recently did a big black IPA brew with heavy hop bursting and dry hopping (only one ounce of pellets for the dry tho), so Ill see how that turns out.

I;m hoping for one huge, hoppy brew.

I'm kegging it up today, so I should have an answer for how it is in about a week or so ^_^

When I first read about hopbursting it was this article and this recipe:
http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

Though it has 5oz within the last 20 minutes. I found it to be underwhelming. I think the true hoppy beers need include that bittering 60 minute charge and also dry-hopping.

grathan said:

When I first read about hopbursting it was this article and this recipe:
http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

Though it has 5oz within the last 20 minutes. I found it to be underwhelming. I think the true hoppy beers need include that bittering 60 minute charge and also dry-hopping.

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I agree with the bittering hop addition for very hoppy beers. In my experience, beers that have only late hops do not get the somewhat harsher, more powerful bitterness that you want in certain American IPAs. If you want to make a smooth hoppy beer, then yes, the all-late method makes sense. So some APAs and ambers, or a bitter with a high alpha hop, or even some IPAs. But for the real hop punch that many "flagship" American IPAs have, I agree that some 60-minute additions are desirable. (Relatedly, I think that relying on first wort hopping as the lone bittering method is also too smooth for certain beers.)

This problem of "I don't have enough hop aroma and flavor" has a simple solution. USE MORE HOPS. It's really that simple. First wort hop, middle additions, late additions, dry hop in the fermenter at 50% attenuation, dry hop at 75% attenuation, dry hop at 100% attenuation. Cold crash, dry hop again. It's just that simple.

I have heard some brewers suggest that to compensate for the variety of chemical reactions that work to minimize hop flavor - one should simply add more hops. While I appreciate this suggestion, I like to use that method as a last resort.

For example, Dr. Bamforth talked about all the $$ breweries spend on minimizing O2 in the brewhouse and all the effort they spend rankling maltsters about the enzymes in malt as they relate to O2 reactions - only to fail at making the most optimal decisions when packaging and distributing which lead to more rapid staling.

I want to make sure I am taking every precaution to maximize hop flavor both up and downstream before I just make my batches more expensive to compensate for hop flavor dissipation in beer. If I can make my batches more efficient in regards to hop usage by optimizing my processes, I am going to make all those optimizations and THEN throw more green delicious plants into my beer if I am still dissatisfied.

I mean my last single IPA had half a pound of hops in it - and it was not enough. hop flavor was unstable and inconsistent from bottle to bottle. My germophobic GF is pretty crazy on sanitization so I doubt it is that - It has got to be a process issue.

What was the recipe? ALso how much bicarbonate in the water? DId you use any salt additions?

Amarillo4BRKFST said:

I have heard some brewers suggest that to compensate for the variety of chemical reactions that work to minimize hop flavor - one should simply add more hops. While I appreciate this suggestion, I like to use that method as a last resort.

For example, Dr. Bamforth talked about all the $$ breweries spend on minimizing O2 in the brewhouse and all the effort they spend rankling maltsters about the enzymes in malt as they relate to O2 reactions - only to fail at making the most optimal decisions when packaging and distributing which lead to more rapid staling.

I want to make sure I am taking every precaution to maximize hop flavor both up and downstream before I just make my batches more expensive to compensate for hop flavor dissipation in beer. If I can make my batches more efficient in regards to hop usage by optimizing my processes, I am going to make all those optimizations and THEN throw more green delicious plants into my beer if I am still dissatisfied.

I mean my last single IPA had half a pound of hops in it - and it was not enough. hop flavor was unstable and inconsistent from bottle to bottle. My germophobic GF is pretty crazy on sanitization so I doubt it is that - It has got to be a process issue.

Click to expand...

Option 1: Spend impressive amounts of time, effort and energy in looking at your homebrew operation like its a piece of national infrastructure. Examine the whole process top to bottom in the hopes that more hop flavor can be discovered.

Option 2: Use more hops.

Option 1 has two possible outcomes: the same result you are getting now OR a better result.

Option 2 has one outcome: a better result than you are getting now.

Hops cost less than a dollar per ounce. If you make $20 per hour, an extra dollar of hops took 3 minutes of work to pay for.

How many batches of beer are you brewing a year where scrubbing every bit of potential is going to pay off?

I'm with bacon, you are going a little too deep into this.

First off, be careful following brewing scientists and pro brewers suggestions when applying to homebrewing. A lot of those conclusions were based on multi-hundred or thousand gallon systems with a whole different set of dynamics and issues. Just add more hops.

How did the pale ale you referenced on 7/4 turn out?

I say if efficiency and getting really in depth and looking at every aspect of your brewing process is what you're into then more power to you. Homebrewing is supposed to be fun and enjoyable and if you like breaking down your process and learning about every aspect of it then go for it. In doing so you're bound to learn a ton of new information about brewing science and processes that will end up helping you make better beer. Even if you don't figure the whole hop thing out, I'm sure you'll pick up a lot of other knowledge about brewing.

On a side note when I buy hops they are $1.75 - $3 an ounce. I guess if you purchase in bulk they would be less than a dollar an ounce, but I don't have room in my freezer for that.

I don't know hops seem to be more expensive here in Austin... not too far off the mark but definitely none for less than $2 per oz. I also stated that I understand that adding more hops is more 'efficient' in terms of time invested in research and review of processes - but when you make an IPA w/ half a pound of hops (which I did right before posting and have been opening up some at ~2/2.5 wks post bottle) and it tastes like a British IPA... nice and mild w/ decent bitterness and no explosion of hops on your palate .... you start to want to ask questions and get it right instead of making a 5 gallon single IPA w/ closer to 1 pound of hops and that is incredibly inefficient $$$ wise.

Water chemistry... I don't know why but when I asked my lhbs about recommendations to adjust for a hoppy/bitter beer they simply told me the water was ok... despite the fact that I know there are several compounds that are deficient for hop bitterness in Austin water. I need to make those decisions on my own then I suppose. Water chemistry is the last area of brewing science I have spent little/no time researching. I did hound down my water company (run by the city) for a report but have not made the necessary adjustments for certain styles.

Also, the pale is still in primary so I don't know how it how it came out... will post! I will be dry hopping it soon then bottling it / taking a sample.

Thanks again for all your posts guys, this is the first thread I've made on the forum and I'm loving the feedback.

Also HG Bacon I brew around 3 batches / month.

Amarillo4BRKFST said:

I have heard some brewers suggest that to compensate for the variety of chemical reactions that work to minimize hop flavor - one should simply add more hops. While I appreciate this suggestion, I like to use that method as a last resort.

For example, Dr. Bamforth talked about all the $$ breweries spend on minimizing O2 in the brewhouse and all the effort they spend rankling maltsters about the enzymes in malt as they relate to O2 reactions - only to fail at making the most optimal decisions when packaging and distributing which lead to more rapid staling.

I want to make sure I am taking every precaution to maximize hop flavor both up and downstream before I just make my batches more expensive to compensate for hop flavor dissipation in beer. If I can make my batches more efficient in regards to hop usage by optimizing my processes, I am going to make all those optimizations and THEN throw more green delicious plants into my beer if I am still dissatisfied.

I mean my last single IPA had half a pound of hops in it - and it was not enough. hop flavor was unstable and inconsistent from bottle to bottle. My germophobic GF is pretty crazy on sanitization so I doubt it is that - It has got to be a process issue.

Click to expand...

i'm not sure which beer you're trying to replicate in your bitterness but, personally, i prefer a fairly bitter beer with a strong hop flavor. I like a beer that feels like about 50 ibu but in order to pull it off my bu/gu is usually closer to 1.00 rather than the .7-.8 that 50 ibu's would usually put an IPA (~1.070)

i've figured this out through trial and error. when it comes to brewing to taste i find that a lot of the theories and numbers have to be disregarded in order to accomplish a set of data that the tongue will interpret properly. try getting 75% of your IBU's from late additions and then the rest at a 60 minute addition. as someone stated above, late additions provide bitterness but the feel in the mouth is much smoother than the IBU would indicate. for some people this means a 60 minute addition is necessary. ymmv