Air getting into beer line (video)

I have searched through the foaming threads for a couple of days now to no avail. On one of my taps (perlick 525, fully open) I am getting pure foam after the initial beer in the line makes it out. I'm linking to a video I posted where you can see air is somehow getting into the line. Let me summarize what I've done to try to fix it:

I switched the line (including coupler) from one keg to another thinking that perhaps I had a bad o-ring on one keg. The foam followed the beer line, so the kegs should be fine (later tried a picnic tap which works fine on both albeit a little fast as that line is much shorter).

So then I thought perhaps the line out coupler (ball lock threaded with flare screwed on) was somehow bad. I switched it with a spare I had, same problem.

I then took one of them apart and used Teflon tape everywhere that pieces fit together - no help.

Each time I switched the coupler I cut off the end of the hose, so the hose itself shouldn't be a problem. Also in the video it looks like the bubbles are making it in before the beer makes it out of the stainless barb.

(Disclaimer: shot one-handed with cell phone while holding keezer lid up and trying to get all the beer into a glass)
[ame]http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=qzq4gn&s=6[/ame]

Each of my kegs has been slowly force carbed (one at about 13 psi, the other at about 7, 41 deg F) for > 2 weeks, and again each one pours fine from the picnic tap.

I would be very appreciative of any insight you can offer.

Thanks!

thats not air in your beer line. thats CO2 escaping the beer.

well there are a few reasons for foamy beer coming out of a keg. it could be that your serving pressure is to high. this can cause turbulence that will knock the gas out of the beer similar to shaking a bottle or can before you open it. it could be also that the beer lines are warm and the beer is warming up releasing its carbonation.

my recommendations are to lower your serving pressure and make sure your beer out lines are as cold as the beer in the keg.

TipsyDragon said:

thats not air in your beer line. thats CO2 escaping the beer.

well there are a few reasons for foamy beer coming out of a keg. it could be that your serving pressure is to high. this can cause turbulence that will knock the gas out of the beer similar to shaking a bottle or can before you open it. it could be also that the beer lines are warm and the beer is warming up releasing its carbonation.

my recommendations are to lower your serving pressure and make sure your beer out lines are as cold as the beer in the keg.

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Those are great suggestions. Also, it's hard to tell in your video what size and type of tubing are you using for your beer lines. Is it 3/16 beverage tubing? What is the length of the tube and how high must the beer rise to the tap? Have you connected this line to another keg to see if the problem follows it?

Thanks, both, for your replies.

TipsyDragon said:

thats not air in your beer line. thats CO2 escaping the beer.

well there are a few reasons for foamy beer coming out of a keg. it could be that your serving pressure is to high. this can cause turbulence that will knock the gas out of the beer similar to shaking a bottle or can before you open it. it could be also that the beer lines are warm and the beer is warming up releasing its carbonation.

my recommendations are to lower your serving pressure and make sure your beer out lines are as cold as the beer in the keg.

Click to expand...

I was serving the two kegs at quite different pressures but just tried lowering the serving pressure way down to 2-3psi and got the same behavior (tried pouring both before and after bleeding the keg).

I have the lines coiled up on top of the kegs but do not have a fan running in the keezer yet. Still, when using the picnic tap (line coiled in the same way), I don't get the foaming. That makes me think it's not the line temp. Also, the line I have running to my keg of Two Hearted is coiled in the same way and it does not foam. I'll be putting a fan in there at some point though, so I guess we'll see.

Those are great suggestions. Also, it's hard to tell in your video what size and type of tubing are you using for your beer lines. Is it 3/16 beverage tubing? What is the length of the tube and how high must the beer rise to the tap? Have you connected this line to another keg to see if the problem follows it?

Click to expand...

I switched the line (including coupler) from one keg to another thinking that perhaps I had a bad o-ring on one keg. The foam followed the beer line, so the kegs should be fine (later tried a picnic tap which works fine on both albeit a little fast as that line is much shorter).

Click to expand...

Yes, I am using 3/16 bev line. I have about nine feet of it left, now I think...started with ten. The taps are in a collar, about 18 inches above the center of the kegs.

Thanks again for the input. Any other ideas?

Know that if you lower your serving pressure you will make the foaming worse for a time. Lowering the pressure will allow the co2 to break out of suspension. If you leave it at 2-3psi for any length of time, you will have flat beer. And any changes you make will take time to show results, so it's best to do one thing at a time and be patient.

Are your clamps and flare fitting tight? Is the nylon insert for the flare fitting seated properly and in good condition?

Are your clamps and flare fitting tight? Is the nylon insert for the flare fitting seated properly and in good condition?

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The clamps are tight; I've specifically tried a second hose clamp in case the first was applying uneven pressure on the hose enough that it let air leak in. No success.

Is the nylon insert you are referring to this: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/swivel-nut-gasket.html ? I don't have one of those, but the liquid out coupler has a plastic tip. I thought this took the place of a nylon washer...perhaps not? I'm starting to think that this may well be the issue, but I would have thought the teflon tape I added would have sealed the fitting up well enough.

Thanks again for all the input!

Sounds very weird indeed. Just to confirm, no matter what keg you try it on it foams but a picnic tap on any keg is fine?
Have you tried changing the disconnect, it might be clogged or something and restricting the flow causting a pressure drop and allowing the co2 to come out of the solution.?

mattd2 said:

Sounds very weird indeed. Just to confirm, no matter what keg you try it on it foams but a picnic tap on any keg is fine?
Have you tried changing the disconnect, it might be clogged or something and restricting the flow causting a pressure drop and allowing the co2 to come out of the solution.?

Click to expand...

Yes, I have tried to different disconnects (each with different a different barb and nut), and yes, the picnic tap works fine on each of those two kegs. I bought the picnic tap already assembled (perhaps it has a nylon washer) whereas I have assembled the other lines myself. I bought the liquid ball lock threaded fitting, a flare, and a nut to convert the threaded fitting to a flared (barbed) fitting.

Anyone have thoughts on the nylon washer discussed in the previous two posts?

The beer line is at a positive pressure relative to the atmosphere, so there is no way for air to 'get in' even if you did have some sort of leak path. If there were a leak path, beer (or CO2) would come OUT, because it's at a higher pressure. Outside air can't magically move from the lower pressure atmosphere to the higher pressure interior of the beer lines. So imo you can quit wasting time looking for air getting in somehow. It's def CO2 coming out of solution as mentioned.

But you do have a mystery on your hands because I can't figure why a picnic would work fine but the Perlick won't, especially since this isn't even happening at the faucet end but is at the keg end. I would triple-check to make sure there is nothing like a venturi in there; i.e. a restriction in flow immediately followed by a larger cross-sectional area. That will pull CO2 out of solution the same way a venturi works.

FWIW, I keep the hoses coiled up, zip-tied in coils, and stuffed down between the kegs in my keezer. My keezer has just enough room for all the beer line and gas line to fit between all the kegs.

Definitely CO2 coming out of suspension. Have you cleaned your perlick lately? maybe a piece of dirt in there causing foaming action?

It is the line itself, or a fitting being used on that line. I bet there is a defect within the internal surface of the line or one of the connectors.

My other thought was that you have a hole in your liquid dip tube.. but you said that switching to the picnic faucet fixes it.

brrman said:

Definitely CO2 coming out of suspension. Have you cleaned your perlick lately? maybe a piece of dirt in there causing foaming action?

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the video shows the foam starting as soon as it leaves the keg (i.e the fitting, tube, or early on in the line. The problem occurs WAY before the faucet comes into play.

The beer line is at a positive pressure relative to the atmosphere, so there is no way for air to 'get in' even if you did have some sort of leak path.

Click to expand...

Right, thanks. I'm not sure why I wasn't thinking of that.

...
My other thought was that you have a hole in your liquid dip tube.. but you said that switching to the picnic faucet fixes it.

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Yes, the picnic tap works fine. Also, both kegs exhibit this behavior with both non-picnic lines (again, same actual hose but changed out the fittings).

This seems to suggest some systematic problem like warm lines as suggested before. I rigged up a fan let it run for a day to eliminate that possibility, and indeed I still had the same problem. Another suggestion was that lowering the serving pressure would let the CO2 come out of suspension, which is certainly true...but I'm not sure to what extent as I have read that many people with short lines keep the pressure up for carbonation while not serving, then lower the pressure while serving. Do those of you who do this get excessive foaming from the pressure drop? When the beer comes out of the tap there is only atmospheric pressure, and it takes quite a while for all of the CO2 to come out.

I would triple-check to make sure there is nothing like a venturi in there; i.e. a restriction in flow immediately followed by a larger cross-sectional area. That will pull CO2 out of solution the same way a venturi works.

Click to expand...

Certainly the plastic ball lock fitting has a smaller diameter hole than the tube and has that pin which seals the line shut when not connected to the keg, but then everyone's connector is like that...unless the two I ordered are somehow flawed.

It is the line itself, or a fitting being used on that line. I bet there is a defect within the internal surface of the line or one of the connectors...

Click to expand...

Perhaps I will buy an assembled line assembly from a different ihbs (internet hbs) so as to get a different lot of fittings if I can get them to make the beer line longer than the usual 5 feet.

Thank you all for the continued input.

Another suggestion was that lowering the serving pressure would let the CO2 come out of suspension, which is certainly true...but I'm not sure to what extent as I have read that many people with short lines keep the pressure up for carbonation while not serving, then lower the pressure while serving. Do those of you who do this get excessive foaming from the pressure drop?

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I have done, and still do this on occasion without foaming.

Sometimes I have an untapped keg in the keezer and I want to steal a pour. So I'll connect a picnic tap with a short line and vent the keg a bit, then pour. No problems unless it's pouring too fast (didn't vent it enough).

Other times I bottle from the keg using the same picnic tap from above. In this case, if I release too much pressure and try to flow too slowly (and I'm talking REALLY slowly) I will get some bubbles in the line but nothing like what you're experiencing. Not anywhere close to that level.

IMHO, it's not the temp of the line. If it were the foaming would happen in the line. You're getting pure foam straight out of the keg QD. It should not come out of the keg QD like that.

Everything really points to the QD but you said you swapped it. Is it possible that one of the poppets is not opening the other mating poppet enough, causing a little venturi there? Do any of the poppets involved seem noticably harder to depress than the others? Have you tried swapping the exact QD from your picnic tap on your Perlick tap?

Malintent said:

the video shows the foam starting as soon as it leaves the keg (i.e the fitting, tube, or early on in the line. The problem occurs WAY before the faucet comes into play.

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Ahh - unfortunately my office blocked the video so I could not view the vid in the OP.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Have you tried swapping the exact QD from your picnic tap on your Perlick tap?

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+1
It also sounds to me like it is the QD casuing the problem, or as you say the threaded fitting. I would diffinately try swapping the picnic taps QD to the perlick, since they are both threaded it should take much effort (and you can check if there is a nylon washer in the picnic tap line).
I don't have threaded QDs but if a nylon washer is supposed to seal against the face and it is missing and has left a gap/ridge that might (pretty big might) cause pressure drop to let the co2 escape

mattd2 said:

+1
It also sounds to me like it is the QD casuing the problem, or as you say the threaded fitting. I would diffinately try swapping the picnic taps QD to the perlick, since they are both threaded it should take much effort (and you can check if there is a nylon washer in the picnic tap line).
I don't have threaded QDs but if a nylon washer is supposed to seal against the face and it is missing and has left a gap/ridge that might (pretty big might) cause pressure drop to let the co2 escape

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Bingo! You guys were right about the QD. I swapped the QD from the picnic tap to the perlick line (and vice versa) and The foam stayed with the QD. That is, the perlick line with the picnic QD no longer foams.
By the way, there was no nylon washer in the picnic QD either.

Seems there is some problem with BOTH QDs I ordered... I'll see if I can pin down the issue and will post back if so. Probably it's some defect on an internal surface as suggested previously.

Thanks so much for all the ideas!

Get in contact with whoever you bought these off (how long have you had them?) becasue if they are new and both are faulty you should be able to get them replaced and the vendor can check the remainding stock and send them back to the supplier if they are all faulty (saving a few more people having to go through your troubles and saving the vendor from being labeled as selling bad QD when it is not really his fault)

Not sure, but I thought I read that the beer line is 5 feet long. If so, I went from a picnic tap with 5 feet to a perlick and had a crazy amount of foam. I am now using 3/16ID line with 12 feet and dispense at about 10-12 psi and have no foaming issue. The picnic tap for some reason had less of a tendency to foam.

mattd2 said:

Get in contact with whoever you bought these off (how long have you had them?) becasue if they are new and both are faulty you should be able to get them replaced and the vendor can check the remainding stock and send them back to the supplier if they are all faulty (saving a few more people having to go through your troubles and saving the vendor from being labeled as selling bad QD when it is not really his fault)

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That's good advice, and I've already done this. After I posted the last reply, I went and took them apart. I found that in the two I have been having trouble with, the interior "beer out" hole was not molded correctly; It was just a crescent-shaped slit that lead to the beer line. I took apart the working QD just to be thorough, and obviously it was molded cleanly.

I called up midwest, and they were more than happy to take care of the problem - two new ones (which he took apart and checked) are on the way.
I asked if anyone else had reported this same issue since I got two that way, but he said no. My guess is even if some others got them they may not yet realize what the problem is.

Not sure, but I thought I read that the beer line is 5 feet long. If so, I went from a picnic tap with 5 feet to a perlick and had a crazy amount of foam. I am now using 3/16ID line with 12 feet and dispense at about 10-12 psi and have no foaming issue. The picnic tap for some reason had less of a tendency to foam.

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Nope, I am running about 9 feet of line on the Perlick. I started with 10, but had to keep cutting the end off to switch hardware.

senorswiss said:

Bingo! You guys were right about the QD. I swapped the QD from the picnic tap to the perlick line (and vice versa) and The foam stayed with the QD. That is, the perlick line with the picnic QD no longer foams.
By the way, there was no nylon washer in the picnic QD either.

Seems there is some problem with BOTH QDs I ordered... I'll see if I can pin down the issue and will post back if so. Probably it's some defect on an internal surface as suggested previously.

Thanks so much for all the ideas!

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Excellent and props to you for making the video in the first place. The video really made the difference imo.

Malintent said:

It is the line itself, or a fitting being used on that line. I bet there is a defect within the internal surface of the line or one of the connectors.

Click to expand...

hrrrummpf!

Originally Posted by Malintent View Post
It is the line itself, or a fitting being used on that line. I bet there is a defect within the internal surface of the line or one of the connectors.

Click to expand...

hrrrummpf!

Click to expand...

Yep - You called it! Thanks!

Looks like the video in the original post has already been dropped by the hosting site. I can't edit the original post for some reason, so am linking here to a more permanent location (my public dropbox area). I'll update the original post if the editing issue gets worked out.

See video here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3x09ihzod5isdd8/beerline.avi

Freakin AWSOME!

After 3 weeks of searching and drinking flat foamy beer. This post solved my problem in 5min. The key is actually where the carbonation was “coming out of solution”- at the QD. Took my brand new QD apart and sure enough- the hole is obstructed. Swapped it out with the other new QD I purchased, yada yada yada- foaming is gone- and my Dopplelbock is delightful.

This is definitely a manufactures defect- and I will be stopping by my HBS tomorrow to swap it out.

I bet there is a bad batch of QD's out there. Length of line and carbonation pressure are important- but sometimes it's a problem with the equiptment.

Thanks All.

CazCrik said:

Freakin AWSOME!

After 3 weeks of searching and drinking flat foamy beer. This post solved my problem in 5min. The key is actually where the carbonation was “coming out of solution”- at the QD. Took my brand new QD apart and sure enough- the hole is obstructed. Swapped it out with the other new QD I purchased, yada yada yada- foaming is gone- and my Dopplelbock is delightful.

This is definitely a manufactures defect- and I will be stopping by my HBS tomorrow to swap it out.

I bet there is a bad batch of QD's out there. Length of line and carbonation pressure are important- but sometimes it's a problem with the equiptment.

Thanks All.

Click to expand...

Awesome! Yeah, I'm wondering how many defective ones made it into consumers' hands and how many people are cursing up and down trying to fix the problem.

UPDATE: Went to my local HBS to swap the QD out-the first new one they pulled out had the same problem- so I am sure there are a bunch of these defective QD's out there.

It's very simple to catch, just unscrew the top off the QD and take the guts out and shove a probe through the side opening. I don't think drilling it out yourself is the best fix, you need a smooth bore and that is tough to get in such a tight space.

Just have your HBS check before the send them to you. It will save you a lot of frustration.

Thanks again.