Quasi-legal question about homebrewing in Michigan

Hey hey,

Not sure I'm in the right forum here, but:

My brew-parnter and I are considering renting a light-industrial or warehouse space to move our hobby out of our kitchen, and to get all this equipment out of our apartments. Needless to say, we would not be considering this if either of us owned a house with a garage or something. Suffice it to say, we're looking for an official workspace to hone our skills and take them to the next level.

So, his father is a law professor at (unnamed) university, and prudently suggested that we look into the possible legal issues involving concocting alcoholic beverages in a non-residence, rented space. Anybody got any input on this, for the State of Michigan?

I'm assuming that we're perfectly fine, unless we get good enough to try our hand at selling/distribution, in which case I've already researched the paperwork we'd need to dance through. Never really saw anything addressing this particular question though. Thoughts?

You will want to look at Michigan's statutes. Usually it will say something to the effect, "An individual may, without being licensed, manufacture in the individual's personal residence a fermented alcoholic beverage if..."

If you take the brewing off your premises, you'd be violating.

There may also be quirky laws about how much you can transport at any one time.

The law prof should be able to point you to the statutes web page.

While Michigan is more lenient than many other states on gifting homebrew, and taking it out of the home (say, to your boat, campsite, cottage, etc), it is very clear that "homebrewing" is to be done in the home.

Statute 436.1207

(b) Beer, wine, mead, honey-based beer, or cider of any alcoholic content made on the premises by the owner or lessee of those premises provided those premises are used and occupied by that owner or lessee as a dwelling and the beer, wine, mead, honey-based beer, or cider is made for family use and home.

So, you see, the "dwelling" part of that is very clear.

In addition to statutory issues, there may be contractual ones as well. Carefully read the lease agreement before signing, to make sure there isn't language that may prohibit your activities. The agreement may have language that restricts or limits alcohol use/production, or otherwise impacts your ability to use certain equipment (e.g. burners).

Wow, Yooper citing MCL sections. If I weren't already married...

Well technically speaking it's not beer unless you pitch yeast. If it is an option take your carboy home, pitch the yeast, and ferment at home. Bring the beer back for racking/bottling. The more feasible option though is, as long as your landlord is cool with it, just brew. Here is what I what I would ask myself....What is the risk of being stopped? and if you are....What are the consequences? You might want to check with local homebrew clubs and/or homebrew shops. They often do brewing sessions in places other than "a dwelling"

Ridire said:

Wow, Yooper citing MCL sections. If I weren't already married...

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Thanks for making me laugh.

Phunhog said:

Well technically speaking it's not beer unless you pitch yeast. If it is an option take your carboy home, pitch the yeast, and ferment at home. Bring the beer back for racking/bottling. The more feasible option though is, as long as your landlord is cool with it, just brew. Here is what I what I would ask myself....What is the risk of being stopped? and if you are....What are the consequences? You might want to check with local homebrew clubs and/or homebrew shops. They often do brewing sessions in places other than "a dwelling"

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While the risk may be low, one thing to point out is that if you're taking the beer back for bottling, then you're violating the "open container" in a vehicle law. I would be hesitant in Michigan to drive around with a 5 gallon carboy of beer. Bottles, no problem. Kegs, again, no problem. But a carboy full of beer, if stopped for speeding or something, would probably be a problem unfortunately.

I know that they have brewdays at a couple of homebrew stores in lower Michigan, one near Detroit and one in Grand Rapids notably, and they may be the ones to contact to find out if they worry about not homebrewing at home.

Yooper said:

While the risk may be low, one thing to point out is that if you're taking the beer back for bottling, then you're violating the "open container" in a vehicle law. I would be hesitant in Michigan to drive around with a 5 gallon carboy of beer. Bottles, no problem. Kegs, again, no problem. But a carboy full of beer, if stopped for speeding or something, would probably be a problem unfortunately.

I know that they have brewdays at a couple of homebrew stores in lower Michigan, one near Detroit and one in Grand Rapids notably, and they may be the ones to contact to find out if they worry about not homebrewing at home.

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You're only in violation of a vehicle open container law if the open container is within "the area designed to seat the driver and passengers while the motor vehicle is in operation and any area that is readily accessible to the driver or a passenger while in their seating positions, including the glove compartment." Transporting the open container in a trunk, for example, would fall outside of the statute.

This is the standard in the majority of states (including Michigan and my state of Minnesota), those adhering to the federal Transportation Equity Act. The statute makes no distinction as to what type of alcoholic beverage container is at issue; thus, a carboy would be subject to the statute in the same manner as a 12-ounce bottle.

MaxStout said:

You're only in violation of a vehicle open container law if the open container is within "the area designed to seat the driver and passengers while the motor vehicle is in operation and any area that is readily accessible to the driver or a passenger while in their seating positions, including the glove compartment." Transporting the open container in a trunk, for example, would fall outside of the statute.

This is the standard in the majority of states (including Michigan and my state of Minnesota), those adhering to the federal Transportation Equity Act. The statute makes no distinction as to what type of alcoholic beverage container is at issue; thus, a carboy would be subject to the statute in the same manner as a 12-ounce bottle.

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Correct- but I don't think a carboy is going in the trunk. It's probably going into the seat next to someone, with a seatbelt on it (yes I've actually seen that!) or on the floor.

Yooper said:

Correct- but I don't think a carboy is going in the trunk. It's probably going into the seat next to someone, with a seatbelt on it (yes I've actually seen that!) or on the floor.

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Perhaps, but the fact that is germaine here is, that it remains a choice for the person transporting as to proper location. Note that the statute also allows placement such that "[v]ehicles without trunks may have an open alcoholic beverage container behind the last upright seat or in an area not normally occupied by the driver or passengers." Thus, it is legal (and practical) for an SUV driver to place the container in the cargo area of the vehicle.

The point I was making was that there is no absolute prohibition to transporting open containers anywhere within a motor vehicle; rather, a prohibition within accessible areas of said motor vehicle.

But yes, I have seen individuals actually strap carboys into their front seat with a seat belt for the ride home. This sort of thing is a legal risk one must consider when people get together to do a group brew and take their beer home.

Who has a trunk tall enough for a carboy or bucket to strapped in standing up with an airlock in it?

And talk about the potential for suck back on the airlock and oxidization as the beer sloshes around on the ride back.

Beernik said:

Who has a trunk tall enough for a carboy or bucket to strapped in standing up with an airlock in it?

And talk about the potential for suck back on the airlock and oxidization as the beer sloshes around on the ride back.

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Try a Crown Vic or other big car. Move the spare tire and you have all kinds of vertical clearance. Don't forget pickup trucks, SUVs, crossovers, vans, etc., many of which have ample room to place a carboy upright and be compliant with the law.

The point being: if you are brewing away from home and transporting beer in a vehicle, know the law. I'd hate to read of a fellow HBT member who got pinched for this.

SUVs & vans don't work because it's part of the "passenger area". Hatchbacks are the same. I can put one in the back of my Prius, but it is accessible.

I suppose a truck with a shell would be ok. Lots of UV to worry about though.

Beernik said:

SUVs & vans don't work because it's part of the "passenger area". Hatchbacks are the same. I can put one in the back of my Prius, but it is accessible.

I suppose a truck with a shell would be ok. Lots of UV to worry about though.

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I think you guys are overthinking this. I don't quite see how a carboy is considered an open container but a growler wouldn't be. Obviously much easier to open a growler from your favorite brewery vs trying to drink out of a carboy (long straw??) The open container law is intended to stop drinking and driving.....not transportation of alcohol.

If you can not brew in a rented space then how about buying a large shed and running water / electric to it . I found sheds at Woodard Mercantile here in Wichita , Ks to be the best buy around here . for about 3K you can get a quite large building . Rent or buy . do not remember who makes them . they are a lot cheaper than All Sizes Shed for sure .
this is what I am thinking of doing as opposed to buying a home with more room or garage

i transported 2 full carboys in my truck when i moved last year. I put them in milk crates, and then covered each with a black plastic trashbag. They were behind the seats in my extended cab pickup. If I would have been stopped i wouldnt have brought them up, if they had been noticed i would have explained.

Beernik said:

SUVs & vans don't work because it's part of the "passenger area". Hatchbacks are the same. I can put one in the back of my Prius, but it is accessible.

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Ummm...nope. Read the statute, paragraph 2.

"Vehicles without trunks may have an open alcoholic beverage container behind the last upright seat or in an area not normally occupied by the driver or passengers."

I stand corrected.

Or you could just not pitch yeast until you get home. Wort is just wort until you pitch yeast. Then it immediately becomes beer.

TheJasonT said:

Or you could just not pitch yeast until you get home. Wort is just wort until you pitch yeast. Then it immediately becomes beer.

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And since the law doesn't come into play unless the open container holds some beverage with at least 0.5% alcohol, you would be fine in that instance. Brew, haul it home, pitch.

MaxStout said:

And since the law doesn't come into play unless the open container holds some beverage with at least 0.5% alcohol, you would be fine in that instance. Brew, haul it home, pitch.

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Of course I doubt any agency would actually go through the trouble to test for an ABV. So even if you did get pulled over for an open container, they would have to confiscate the carboy, keep it as evidence, and have it tested in a lab. Not going to happen.....

Why don't you rent a cheap house that has the space and facilities you would need. I would be willing to bet it would be cheaper to rent a house than anything zoned industrial anyway. You're paying by the sq. ft. for those spaces and they are priced assuming you are conducting business out of it and therefore turning a profit and writing off the rent as a business expense.

Find a place relatively quiet. Even if a neighbor grew suspicious of your comings and goings I can't see you getting in trouble for renting a house to brew beer in. It would be your secondary residence. You could even throw a bed and TV in there. Just don't have anything illegal in there in case someone did call and a cop came over to see what you were doing. Depending on what someone says when they call, the call alone may be probable cause to search the house.

But, I would be more worried about anything zoned commercial or industrial, especially if you own any kind of business (even an old DBA), if you are going to have more than a handful of bags of grain there so you can't argue you aren't going over the 100 gallon per year limit, or if you have any clever 'brewery' names you've trademarked or anything like that, if you have multiple 20 gallon set ups and 15 or 20 corny kegs sitting around. You know, stuff that would make it hard to argue that you weren't going over the production limit and that you weren't selling it.

Overall though, I wouldn't be worried about it in Michigan knowing our cops, laws and what kind of substances a lot of other people in this state are renting places to manufacture. It's not like you're manufacturing anything illegal.

But, all things being equal.. I would still rent the place you are talking about over driving things back and forth..

I really like these threads because I love reading people's explanations on how to skirt the law. No offense, but honestly, if I'm going to all the trouble to rent a separate space for brewing, transporting tens of gallons of beer back and forth between my residence and shop, just to pitch yeast, really defeats a lot of the purpose of renting a separate space, doesn't it?

I guess though, my real question is, if you have the extra cash to drop on a rented brewing space, why not just look into buying or renting a new residence that gives you the space you'd like?

Phunhog said:

I think you guys are overthinking this. I don't quite see how a carboy is considered an open container but a growler wouldn't be. Obviously much easier to open a growler from your favorite brewery vs trying to drink out of a carboy (long straw??) The open container law is intended to stop drinking and driving.....not transportation of alcohol.

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A growler would be but hopefully the officer would apply some reasonableness to the situation.... for instance check if it was full (thus assuming unopened). If it was half full.... well you've got some 'splanin to do.

Clonefan94 said:

I really like these threads because I love reading people's explanations on how to skirt the law. No offense, but honestly, if I'm going to all the trouble to rent a separate space for brewing, transporting tens of gallons of beer back and forth between my residence and shop, just to pitch yeast, really defeats a lot of the purpose of renting a separate space, doesn't it?

I guess though, my real question is, if you have the extra cash to drop on a rented brewing space, why not just look into buying or renting a new residence that gives you the space you'd like?

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That's why I love these threads too!! Of course if "they" are not going to bother to enforce the law why should I bother to follow it? Legitimate question.

Phunhog said:

That's why I love these threads too!! Of course if "they" are not going to bother to enforce the law why should I bother to follow it? Legitimate question.

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For me, firstly, because it's the law. Then it's a matter of not looking a gift horse in the mouth. Just because they aren't actively enforcing it now, doesn't mean they won't in the future. I honestly don't think a situation like this would ever raise any eyebrows, unless they started hearing about homebrew being sold.

But I can't help but think that if you get enough people that start skirting the laws, then they might not only crack down on them, but legitimate homebrewers as well and go for changing the laws.

Kind of like when we were kids, we had this neighbor who had a huge yard and always let the neighborhood kids play football, baseball all that kind of stuff in his yard. his only request was that we stay out of the garden. Well, that all ended when one of the kids went in there and trampled all of his tomato plants.

No one ever admitted to who did it, but all I know is that we then had to walk about a mile from then on to go play any pick up sports, because the neighbor shut down his yard to that stuff. And that's kind of how I look at this stuff. I'd just rather follow the law and keep brewing instead of pissing someone off and having them shut my hobby down.

Clonefan94 said:

For me, firstly, because it's the law. Then it's a matter of not looking a gift horse in the mouth. Just because they aren't actively enforcing it now, doesn't mean they won't in the future. I honestly don't think a situation like this would ever raise any eyebrows, unless they started hearing about homebrew being sold.

But I can't help but think that if you get enough people that start skirting the laws, then they might not only crack down on them, but legitimate homebrewers as well and go for changing the laws.

Kind of like when we were kids, we had this neighbor who had a huge yard and always let the neighborhood kids play football, baseball all that kind of stuff in his yard. his only request was that we stay out of the garden. Well, that all ended when one of the kids went in there and trampled all of his tomato plants.

No one ever admitted to who did it, but all I know is that we then had to walk about a mile from then on to go play any pick up sports, because the neighbor shut down his yard to that stuff. And that's kind of how I look at this stuff. I'd just rather follow the law and keep brewing instead of pissing someone off and having them shut my hobby down.

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I understand and respect what you are saying. Not to get all philosophical but I always defer to my moral compass and ask "Is this action/inaction going to hurt someone or clearly immoral?" Rather just say it's the law. Wow!! that's deep

butterpants said:

A growler would be but hopefully the officer would apply some reasonableness to the situation.... for instance check if it was full (thus assuming unopened). If it was half full.... well you've got some 'splanin to do.

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there are a lot of real jerks out there flashing a badge . to assume one would not arrest you for open container just because it was a fermenter fermenting in your car would be taking a huge risk . Of course a cop that knows brewing would know that it is not there to drink and only being moved to another location but what is the chance that a homebrewing cop is the one that pulls you over .
I think I would put it in the trunk or just inside a box so it could not be seen .
also I bet a non brewing cop would automatically assume it was some kind of meth lab stuff.

Oh wow, hey all, thanks for the replies! I honestly didn't think I would get any replies to my original question!

At any rate, to answer a couple things: My buddy and I have potentially found a small artist studio space that *may* accommodate our needs. We unleashed what was essentially a barrage of pointed questions to the guy showing us the space, and we expect to hear back about these soon. We made our intentions for using the space quite clear, and if the questions come back negative, we're not taking the space; we don't want to mess around here.

Furthermore, it appears that this endeavor may not be quite as simple as just renting a workshop to homebrew in; there could be many potential legal issues with this if we want to stay straight and open about what we're doing. As such, I have contacted a law firm specializing in Michigan's liquor laws, and am waiting to hear back from them.

If we can't swing it, then we can't swing it. Simple as that. Like I said, we want to keep things legit, especially if we want to open our own brewery someday.

I'm really hoping this works out somehow because, dang, my kitchen is small and cramped. Just for kicks, I'll reply to this thread some more with stuff I learn about this.

Thank you all for your input! Special thanks to Yooper, as your input made me think, "whoa....I really do need to look into this first."

This forum is AWESOME :rockin:

Yooper said:

While Michigan is more lenient than many other states on gifting homebrew, and taking it out of the home (say, to your boat, campsite, cottage, etc), it is very clear that "homebrewing" is to be done in the home.

Statute 436.1207

(b) Beer, wine, mead, honey-based beer, or cider of any alcoholic content made on the premises by the owner or lessee of those premises provided those premises are used and occupied by that owner or lessee as a dwelling and the beer, wine, mead, honey-based beer, or cider is made for family use and home.

So, you see, the "dwelling" part of that is very clear.

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Yooper, sir, thank you for your reply. It kinda made me wake up and be all like, "crap...I really do need to look into this stuff."

Since you're in Upper Michigan I'll say, it's a shame we didn't cross paths at the Brewer's Guild festival in Marquette; it was an awesome time. Maybe next year

MarcusKillion said:

I bet a non brewing cop would automatically assume it was some kind of meth lab stuff.

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Until you drank some. Even methheads don't screw with batch funk

Phunhog said:

I understand and respect what you are saying. Not to get all philosophical but I always defer to my moral compass and ask "Is this action/inaction going to hurt someone or clearly immoral?" Rather just say it's the law. Wow!! that's deep

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Oh, I agree and do respect that ideology. I didn't mean to sound all goody-two-shoes, brewing is just one of those things I feel like the law is pretty forgiving on already. So, I'll follow that so some Bible thumper doesn't get all up in arms about how homebrewing is degrading the moral fabric of our nation.

A call from a neighbor doesn't mean the cops can search your home. That doesn't even make any sense. They can show up and ask to come in, but unless they see a meth lab when you open the door they don't have the power to do anything else. They need a warrant from the judge for that.

cervid said:

I'm confused.. Are you saying that Christians, I'm sorry.. bible thumpers don't imbibe or homebrew? Are you saying you only follow the law because you are worried what a 'bible thumper' might say? Your last sentence was not only unnecessary, but a bit telling. If you really wanted to get anti religion at least pick one that doesn't have a long history of being the one's who actually had all the alcohol as it was considered a gift from God.. Or one where consuming alcohol might actually be considered immoral, because there are some, but Christianity isn't one of them.

Call me crazy.. I don't give a rip what anyone or any group thinks about what I do. What I care about is if I am violating a law for the fact that I may get fined or arrested.

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Hey guys we don't talk about religion in this forum. We do talk about homebrewing laws. Cervid if you are worried about violating a homebrewing law and suffering consequences.... let's just say the laws are not and never have been actively enforced.

Langecrew said:

Yooper, sir, thank you for your reply. It kinda made me wake up and be all like, "crap...I really do need to look into this stuff."

Since you're in Upper Michigan I'll say, it's a shame we didn't cross paths at the Brewer's Guild festival in Marquette; it was an awesome time. Maybe next year

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Nice response, but Yooper ain't a sir..

Beernik said:

SUVs & vans don't work because it's part of the "passenger area". Hatchbacks are the same. I can put one in the back of my Prius, but it is accessible.

I suppose a truck with a shell would be ok. Lots of UV to worry about though.

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I think the prosecution would have a hard time arguing that a full 5-gallon container is "accessible" to you while driving regardless of whether or not it's within reach. Are you going to reach back and grab it and take a swig out of it?

Guys......GUYS.

Let's not continue to get off topic here. Yooper provided some legit info. In my book, that's plenty worthy of saying, "Thank you, sir." in some form or another.

Especially after talking to a lawyer this week, my brew buddy and I have decided to remain conservative about our ambitions and to not go forward with renting an offsite workspace for our hobby.

If my buddy and I really do want to enter the realm of commercial brewing someday, we'd like to keep things as legit as possible. We're not going to try to game the system and brew in a rented space, only to bring fermenters home to pitch yeast. Honestly a decent idea that we had not thought of, but we shouldn't be so adventurous, in all prudence.

Again, to my honest surprise, this post has yielded some cool and interesting responses. I'm still quite enthused to see what my friend and I can accomplish over time.

In any case, no doubt, this will be awesome!

Happy brewing . happy drinking . and you need a bigger house .