For all you water experts

I just got my water profile today from my city and could use some advice. I have 2 all grain batches fermenting right now, I have taken samples after primary fermentation is up and am still getting what I think is phenols. I used potassium metabisulfite in my brew water, but I sanitized with star-san mixed in tap water, which may have left enough chloramine to ruin my beer. Here are my numbers from the city water department. This is somewhat unrelated to the chloramine issue, but what do you suggest I can do to optimize my water. These are some numbers from the city water department (Garland, TX):

Calcium 57.7
Magnesium 4.72
Sodum 32.3
Potassium 5.23
Bicarbonates 113
Carbonates 0
Sulfate 64.8
Chloride 35

Total Alkalinity 113
Noncarbonate Hardness 71
Total Hardness 184

Chlorine residual 3.05
pH 7.77

Can someone translate all this for me. It would really help since I am pretty new to all grain and water chemistry. Thanks

Everything looks pretty moderate, except the bicarbonate is a little high for pale beers. Probably anything amber or darker would be fine without adjustment. For lighter beers, you can use phosphoric acid to lower the mash pH.

This was the guideline I followed when I first started getting into water treatment. It's a good place to start:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/09/i-think-that-water-treatment-has-made.html

Depending on the beer you want to make (hoppy or malty, dark or light) you could tailor specific profiles for each recipe.

As for the chlorophenols, a carbon block filter, or buying RO water at the store would take care of that. I'd do at least one batch with RO water to make sure the issue is actually caused by you water, and not your fermentation temps or general yeast health. If the yeast is hot or sickly they'll throw off some wacky flavors.

I'd also download a copy of Bru'n water or Kai's spreadsheet. They're both great.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page scroll down to the water_calculator spreadsheet link.

or

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Nateo said:

Everything looks pretty moderate, except the bicarbonate is a little high for pale beers. Probably anything amber or darker would be fine without adjustment. For lighter beers, you can use phosphoric acid to lower the mash pH.

This was the guideline I followed when I first started getting into water treatment. It's a good place to start:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/09/i-think-that-water-treatment-has-made.html

Depending on the beer you want to make (hoppy or malty, dark or light) you could tailor specific profiles for each recipe.

As for the chlorophenols, a carbon block filter, or buying RO water at the store would take care of that. I'd do at least one batch with RO water to make sure the issue is actually caused by you water, and not your fermentation temps or general yeast health. If the yeast is hot or sickly they'll throw off some wacky flavors.

I'd also download a copy of Bru'n water or Kai's spreadsheet. They're both great.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page scroll down to the water_calculator spreadsheet link.

or

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

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Thanks, I have made a couple decent extract brews with store bought water that didn't have a phenol flavor, but weren't good enough for me to be totally satisfied. I just assumed it was extract twang or less than ideal yeast fermentation. I do well with my fermentation temps, I can use the water, tshirt and fan trick to get my temps low enough. My last two brews I kept in the lower to mid 60's for ales using that method. Yeast health may be a concern, up until my last batch, I was just sprinkling dry yeast into the wort, I hydrated the yeast from my last brew and it took off quicker than the others, so that's something I am improving on. I should also add that I used pH stabilizer in my 2 all grain brews, not knowing the science behind it, but just out of caution.

My concern now is that water I mixed with sanitizer wasn't free of chlorine and chloramine, and there was enough left after I dumped it from the bucket to still ruin my batch. I dumped it completely out, but there was still star-san foam and it was wet.

Also, I filled my cooler up with water filtered through the system in my fridge and added potassium metabisulfite to it and let it sit over night to de-chlorinate. Should I have left the lid open overnight to let the chlorine/chloramine escape?

I doubt that the film of sanitizing solution will leave your beer with enough chloro compounds to affect your beer flavor. Relax.

Bru'n Water has tools to help you evaluate the water report information you've been provided and better assure its correct and usable. There is also plenty of information on brewing water chemistry to help you figure out for yourself what you should be doing with your water for each brew.

Enjoy.

mabrungard said:

I doubt that the film of sanitizing solution will leave your beer with enough chloro compounds to affect your beer flavor. Relax.

Bru'n Water has tools to help you evaluate the water report information you've been provided and better assure its correct and usable. There is also plenty of information on brewing water chemistry to help you figure out for yourself what you should be doing with your water for each brew.

Enjoy.

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I wouldn't have thought so either, that's why I was surprised when I tasted a sample and it had a bitter phenol flavor. When I added the potassium metabisulfite to my brew water, I closed the lid and let it sit over night, would that have kept the chlorine in?

No, the reaction between chlorine and chloramine with metabite is pretty quick. In fact that lets you know on the spot that you have dosed enough metabite. The chlorine smell is gone on seconds perhaps to have been replaced with a sulfur dioxide smell (burnt matches). The chlorine does not escape - it is converted to chloride ion. The metabite is converted to sulfur dioxide and it is that which reduces the chlorine. If excess bisulfite has been added then you will smell the SO2 as some of it will escape the water. But you needn't worry about expelling it from the beer. It has a beneficial effect.

There are other places to get phenolics. In fact the phenolic induced flavor/aroma from chloramine is usually described as "plastic like" whereas the harsher phenolic flavors tend to be yeast induced (by yeasts carrying the "POF" gene).

ajdelange said:

No, the reaction between chlorine and chloramine with metabite is pretty quick. In fact that lets you know on the spot that you have dosed enough metabite. The chlorine smell is gone on seconds perhaps to have been replaced with a sulfur dioxide smell (burnt matches). The chlorine does not escape - it is converted to chloride ion. The metabite is converted to sulfur dioxide and it is that which reduces the chlorine. If excess bisulfite has been added then you will smell the SO2 as some of it will escape the water. But you needn't worry about expelling it from the beer. It has a beneficial effect.

There are other places to get phenolics. In fact the phenolic induced flavor/aroma from chloramine is usually described as "plastic like" whereas the harsher phenolic flavors tend to be yeast induced (by yeasts carrying the "POF" gene).

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Okay, I was just pretty stumped why the batch had that taste. I'm going to let it sit in primary another couple weeks and taste it again to decide if I want to dump it and try again or wait on it and keg it. I used US-05 yeast by the way, which I have had very bad luck with.

I have found that the "recommended" dosing rate of 1 tablet per 20 gallons is not enough. I use a carbon block filter and still treat at that rate just in case I missed some in the filtering process. If you aren't filtering try a half tablet per 5 gallons, and use chlorine/chloramine test strips from the pet store to make sure you are really getting it all. I have lost more batches to chloramine in my water than anything else so I am VERY paranoid about it now.

I tablet per 20 gal is based on a 696 mg sodium metabite Campden tablet and a worst case chlorine load of 3 mg/L all as chloramine. The max the EPA allows is 4. Thus if 1 tablet per 20 gal doesn't do it your situation is somewhat unusual. I guess I would try to find out from the water authority what the maximum residual leaving their plant is. I would probably also get a decent test kit from Hach or Lamotte... In general, if you do not smell chlorine but do smell some sulfur dioxide you have killed chlorine/chloramine but a test would make positive confirmation.

So an update for this thread. I have made 2 AG brews now, a SNPA clone and a blond ale. The sierra nevada clone is actually pretty great, the blond ale is less than stellar and am giving it some more time in the keg at room temp to see if some flavors will age out. I think for my next brew, I may try to to dilute with some RO water, but will def try some lactic acid and get some ph strips so I know my mash is at a proper ph

jbsg02 said:

...get some ph strips so I know my mash is at a proper ph

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Unfortunately, you won't know what your pH is if you rely on strips. They are notoriously inaccurate. The only alternative is a pH meter which is, obviously, more expensive than the strips and subject, at the price level home brewers are willing to pay, to appreciable error as well but much better than the strips.

ajdelange said:

Unfortunately, you won't know what your pH is if you rely on strips.

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I don't think that statement is entirely accurate. You may not have the same precision when using test strips, and they have a systematic error, but the systematic error is consistent and repeatable. The window for the "proper" mash range is large, so you don't need much precision to know whether you're in it, or not.

If you are trying to hit a specific mash pH, say 5.4 instead of 5.6, then a pH meter would be the only way to go.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...st_strips_for_pH_measurements_in_home_brewing

Test strips are pretty reliable and accurate when they use multiple pads on a single strip. For instance, a strip producing 3 different colors that can all be checked against the table. If all 3 colors match the same pH, you can be certain of the integrity of the strip. Three pads can also give the strip some greater resolution (realistically only half that of the chart) as even if the difference between, say, 5 and 6 on one of the pads are pretty similar in color, the other two will usually be so different that it's not too hard to be able to pick out a 5.5 +/-0.25. And I've seen similar, fairly inexpensive strips with a resolution of 0.5, allowing for similarly measuring to +/-0.125 (ie, a range of 0.25). Which isn't the best, but it's not too bad.

That being said, I don't understand how people use the damn things for brewing. I bought some ages ago, and only used them once, after realizing the color of the wort obscured the colors too much. Brown, brown, and brown aren't on the charts! So how are people using them at all?

Nateo said:

...but the systematic error is consistent and repeatable.

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If I believed that I would agree.

ajdelange said:

If I believed that I would agree.

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I know you've talked to Kai about this, since you're listed as a reference on his page. Do you disagree with his conclusion?

"While the colorpHast strips can be read with a precision of +/- 0.2 pH units, which is sufficient for checking mash pH, they exhibit a systematic error of 0.3 - 0.4 pH which needs to be taken into account."

No. I guess I'm not comfortable with trying to determine whether I am in a particular range with a measurement that has a precision that is no better than the width of the range. Sort of like trying to tell whether a 1.5 volt battery is new or old using a volt meter that only reads 0, 1, 2 or 3 volts. If you read 1 is the voltage 1.5 (new battery) or 0.5 (old battery)? Then there is the systematic error on top of that.

And also, my next brew is going to be a Rogue Dead Guy Ale clone. I had that for the first time actually last weekend and thought, I HAVE to brew this! My sulfates are about double my chloride, which produces bitter beers. Should I just add something to my water to boost the chloride a bit for this malty beer?

Chloride will mellow your beer somewhat but it does not antagonize sulfate as so many seem to think. If your beer is too harshly bitter the solution is to reduce sulfate or use less of or a finer hop, not increase chloride though additional chloride, up to a point, may well improve the beer.