I may quit soon! Help!

I have been all-grain brewing for about two years now. Recently every batch I have made has been borderline undrinkable. Only my stout is still drinkable. All my other beers have a strong yeast quality to them. I batch sparge and do a 90 minute boil. Cooled with an Immersion chiller and pre chiller(IC in ice bath running to chiller in beer). I aerate with a drill fitting and pitch my yeast at a temp well below 80 degrees. I have tried pitching with out smacking the smack pack. I have tried the normal approach of smacking the pack and letting it swell. I have made starters the day before. I have made starters a week early and poured of the clear beer on top to pitch the slurry. Also, I use a chest freezer with a johnson control set to the low end of my yeast's range. I stick the temperate control probe in between a piece of bubble wrap and the side of the glass fermenter. I grab a taste after a week when I check the gravity and it is awful. Never gets better. I have let a normal gravity (1.054) sit for a month and the off flavor is still there.

If the beer is not a dark dark beer this off flavor is too dominate. I am very conscious of keeping my brew gear clean with PBW, and I sanitize with iodophor. My next beer will be an extract kit to see if the problem lies in my mashing technique.(If there is no off flavor in my extract beer than the problem must be in my mash.)

Do you guys have any clue what I could be doing wrong? I have made great beers in the past with out this problem but, I just can't seem to get past it now. And if you live in the south jersey area please come by and try this beer. Maybe we can figure this out together.

The only thing I can think of is maybe something in your water could be causing it. You say that only dark, dark beers come out decent or without an overpowering off-flavor. Do you know your water profile? Hard water is better for dark beers soft water for light yadda, yadda... DON'T GIVE UP!! What kind of off-flavor is it? Can you describe the flavor?

Do you think something has changed in your water supply?

(I must have posted at the same time as above)

Yeah, you've gotta describe the off flavor. Plastic, rancid, apple, barnyard, butter, something else...

The best I can do to describe the flavor is Yeasty or Buttery, slick with little to no head. I don't use dish soap. My meads come out fine. But, they are Poland springs bottled water. How can I tell if I have hard or soft water? What should I look for in my water quality report? Also, I have a Pur water filter on my tap.

You could buy water water from the store and see if you have the same results.

Also what temps do you mash at, and possibly try some dry yeast.

I mash in somewhere between 165 and 170 depends on the amount of grain. Mash temp holds a steady 152 for one hour in my cooler mash tun. My sparge water is around 186 to get the temp in the cooler up to 170. I stir every thing up pretty well and do a 15 minute batch sparge. I think I will brew my English Strong Ale with poland springs. I want to try one correction at a time to really pin point this problem. May have to waste some money, but it would be better than trying to sell all my equipment.

JJDMusic said:

The best I can do to describe the flavor is Yeasty or Buttery, slick with little to no head. I don't use dish soap. My meads come out fine. But, they are Poland springs bottled water. How can I tell if I have hard or soft water? What should I look for in my water quality report? Also, I have a Pur water filter on my tap.

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Buttery? Are you doing a diacetyl rest, particularly if you're fermenting at lower temps? Try raising the fermentation tempt to ambient (65-70ish) for the last bit of fermentation, or for a few days after active fermentation has stopped.

You're not boiling with your lid on are you?

Yeah, get your temps more inline to mid 60's. You're using a starter and pitching the correct amount (not over/under pitching), right? You're aerating. Are you using alot of pilsner malt? If you send your beer to someone who's a BJCP judge on here they can probably diagnose it for you. Any judges wanna step up to the fire line?

Quick Question(s). How long do you leave the beer in the primary and if you secondary, when do you transfer and how long do you secondary?

If you smell buttered popcorn, then you have Diacetyl most likely and that is something that you will fix by fermenting at 65-68* and then raising your temp post ferment to closer to 70-75 for a couple of days. It is a beast and nothing is worse than having it in your beer

No, I am not boiling with the lid on. But I am on an electric stove spanned over two burners with 7 gallons. The boil is pretty decent though, 90 minutes long. Could it be not strong enough? Also, chilling takes longer than 15 minutes, we have hot water in Jersey. It gets to 100 degrees pretty quickly, the rest takes a while.

And I have tried having higher fermentation temps in the past. Since I though it tasted more like a yeasty flavor possibly even estery, I though it may be esters from high fermentation temps so I lowered them. The taste was still there. I mean I can smell it before the beer hits my lips. I have done diacetyl rests, I just let it sit for a few days or even weeks after fermentation is finished.

My starters are 32 ounces of water and 1/2 cup dry malt extract. They get to around 1.042 and I pitch a swollen wyeast smack pack (the big one) into that. 24 hours later I make the batch. I have even waited a week and just pitched the slurry.

Most primaries are one to three weeks, depends on my gravity. I always use a secondary just to clarify my brews. After a week or two, I will cold crash them in the secondary.

I don't think it smells like buttered popcorn.

I just racked my nut brown ale from primary to secondary yesterday. Primary was 62 degrees for one week, the yeast had a scale of 60-72 degrees. Again I tape my temp gage to the side of a glass carboy with bubble wrap as an insulator.
I will put the chest freezer to 73 and see what happens after a week in secondary. Going off of what (Matt up North) had to say.

If your meads taste fine with bottled water, that's a huge clue.

wildwest450 said:

If your meads taste fine with bottled water, that's a huge clue.

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+1,i only use bottle water.Even though my water tastes good.

From your description, I'll go with water chemistry messing with your mash. If you're inclined, do an extract recipe and see how that fairs. If it works, then you know the issue is with the mash and you can trouble shoot further from there.

So you guys think it is more the water rather than a weak boil? What flavors will a weak boil create? <<Thinking about getting a propane burner>>

Where are you located?

Is there anyone close enough to you to join you in a brewing session that may steer you in the right direction while observing your process?

JJDMusic said:

So you guys think it is more the water rather than a weak boil? What flavors will a weak boil create? <<Thinking about getting a propane burner>>

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A weak boil could cause Dimethyl Sulfide which tastes and smells of cooked vegetables/corn/cabbage or shellfish/seafood.

Do you use finings of any sort (irish moss, isenglss, gelatin, whirlfloc, etc)?

I use Irish moss in the last fifteen when i put in my IC.

I'm a fellow Jersey brewer, and my water is unbelievably hard- lousy for brewing light colored beers. I just tasted a pale ale (Dude's Lake Walk) that I made with half distilled water/ half tap, and it's great. I had a weird sort of minerally/medicinal taste that smothered hop flavor in just about all of my lighter colored beers before this. Try store-bought water for your next brew. I'm almost positive it will make a difference.

Yeah I would try fixing the water, hard water will cause some off flavors in lighter beers. I just moved to a city that has hard water and I'm worried that my beers may meet the same demise. I guess I'll find out in a couple of weeks.

You need more sulphates in your water.... without them your beer can take on a soapy type off favors.
Don't go crazy adding a ton though.

For just a couple of bucks you can get good store bought water (or maybe fill a water cooler type bottle like a better bottle). Good water profile would be the easiest thing to eliminate from the equation.

First let me start by saying I've just finished my fourth batch, so I'm from from being any kind of brewing expert.

That said...I have lived in NJ all of my 52 years and can tell you this...I NEVER drink the tap water....ever. I dont know what the water in South Jersey is like but up North its just nasty. So I kind of knew right from my first batch..if I dont drink it why would I brew with it.

I suppose when I learn more about the tap water and the science that some brewers use to change it then I'll try using it but until then I'll only use Poland springs and so far the first 3 came out great...no off tastes. We'll find out about the 4th when its ready.

South Jersey Water is mostly well water and it tastes great. But something may have changed in my neck of the woods.

I went to my LHBS today and picked up cheap pH test strips. Decided to compare my tap water, to my filtered tap water, and last bottled Poland Springs.

Bare in mind these were cheap test strips...

My tap ---- 5
Filter(Pur) ----4.5
Poland Springs ----3,3.5ish

Poland springs was the only test strip that did not burn the edges a weird purple color after 30 seconds or more.

Also the clerk at the homebrew shop said other people from my area(surrounding towns) have had problems as well with off flavors. He tasted some and said their beer was rancid and undrinkable. Sounds familiar.

I am making a starter today with bottled water and will be brewing tomorrow with bottled water.

I will keep you updated on the brew(English Strong Ale). Thanks for the input, hopefully this will solve it.

The session went very well today, although I did forget to check my mash pH (curious). Everything that went into the beer was bottled water.

The beer was 13.5 pounds of grain and yielded a little over 5 gallons of 15.8 brix wort (1.063). I used a started and pitched the whole thing at full krausen. It is bubbling slowly five hours later (soonest I checked) with a one inch blow off tube. I am fermenting this one with my freezer set at 69 degrees. So it is right in the middle of my yeast's tolerance.

This thing will be primary for two weeks or so, and maybe a week in secondary or just long enough to cold crash it. In about five days to a week I will take of the blow off tube, check the gravity, and taste a small amount. Talk to you then.

From reading this thread, evidently I made the correct decision to brew with RO (reverse osmosis) water from the grocery store when I started brewing. It's been two years and probably 50 or so batches, and I haven't had a problem yet. We're in the country on our own well, and it's way too hard (Ca and Fe, mostly) to even consider brewing with it. I figure beer is mostly water, and if I can't invest $1.65 to ensure good beer, my priorities are out of whack.

JJDMusic said:

Bare in mind these were cheap test strips...

My tap ---- 5
Filter(Pur) ----4.5
Poland Springs ----3,3.5ish

Poland springs was the only test strip that did not burn the edges a weird purple color after 30 seconds or more.

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This tells me you got bad test strips. pH of 3.5 puts the acidity somewhere between beer (4.5), and lemon (3 ish). If that's your tap water pH, I'd be more than surprised.

Yeah I think so too. I figured, even if they are cheap and crappy, they would still show me a difference in the waters I was comparing.

If switching water solves my problem, I am not going to worry about my mash pH. If water is not the solution I will be getting something better to test with.

i'm troubleshooting a similar issue, only with some paler ales. i think my problem has to do with fermcaps. i just started using them about a month ago, and have used them in four brews. two have aged normally (3-4 weeks primary, then keg). both are disgusting, and i keep this beer in the rotation at all times. i'm not going to use them in my next one, just to see if that's the problem.

It is frustrating isn't it. Good luck.

The English Strong Ale has been in primary for a couple of days now and is still kickin it. A nice two inch krausen on this one. I always use a blow off hose with my 6.5 carboy because, I once pitched too much yeast in a Belgian and almost had a big mess to clean up. I'm not a fan of scrubbing beer out of carpet and off of walls and ceilings. I will replace that with an airlock once the krausen starts to drop a bit, and take a reading. I never really need the blow off but, better safe than sorry.

JJD, what about doing some 1/2 batches to try to pinpoint this thing without breaking the bank?

jds said:

This tells me you got bad test strips. pH of 3.5 puts the acidity somewhere between beer (4.5), and lemon (3 ish). If that's your tap water pH, I'd be more than surprised.

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tap water may actually be that acidic if you don't let it off gas for a while.


I doubt the poland springs is that low though, so you're probably right on the strips.

This thread may interest you, regarding your water. I sent for the sample stuff and will be mailing in my water. I'll need to come here to have the super-smart people figure out what my results mean

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/how-send-water-ward-labs-test-129581/

Typically, I've had great results with "store bought" spring water. I don't use household water because of the water softner "influence". I don't boil for more than an hour as I feel it's unnecessary as it only provides a medium to dissolve the necessary flavors from the hops and adjuncts. Store bought water is cheap, realitively speaking, as great beer is great. Do the math and come as close as you can to the recipe, temps are important. Do the simple beer recipes first, solve your problems and then you can get into more complex recipes as you evolve.

Okay, I tasted the all spring water batch today, (just shy of two weeks primary) and it had that same off flavor. I no longer think it is my water. Or my mash since the bottled water would surely give me a different pH.

Back to the diacetyl reasoning.

That being said, I kegged the nut brown ale I made awhile ago when I made this post. I took it out of the primary 62 degrees, and put in in secondary ambient 72 degrees for two weeks. The off flavor was much less noticeable.

If it is diacetyl why is it only coming up in these brews and not ones from the past. Same recipes and all.

Should I start fermenting at the higher ends of my yeast tolarance, if so how do I avoid esters?

I did an extract recipe from NB the nut brown ale. The beer is not that good but it does not seem to have any off flavors. So, the off flavor I am getting must just be from my all grain batches. What the &@*% could it be?

Last Batch

I used spring water
Grain precrushed from NB
Beer Smith water and temp caculations.

Grain supply? Maybe the issue is with the grain itself?......