Late extract additions

For now, I am forced to use a very cheap/thin SS brewpot on an electric stove top. For now, I also do strictly extract (usually with steeping grains) but no mini-mash or all-grain. I've found that no matter how careful I am, some of the sugars scortch where the burner touches the pot (in a well defined spiral, Doh!). I believe its due not to undesolved extract sinking to the bottom, but the fact that the heat is not spread more evenly across the thin pot bottom and the sheer volume of sugars in the concentrated wort. I also notice the beers tend to be darker and have a sweeter (I believe carmelized) taste to them than I expect/desire. As a result I have decided to try moving all of the LME to flameout. My thought was I would use the wort from steeping, plus any DME for the boil and move all of the LME to flameout. The first question is whether or not that is ok, or if I need to try to use a specific ratio of the sugars for the boil? Also, I just ordered a few kits and one of them has steeping grains and LME, but no DME. So my next question is, with that kit, can I get away with just using the wort from steeping the grains and no extract during the boil and all of the extract at flameout or do I need to add some of the LME for the boil?

Thanks in advance for any help,
Dicky

Late additions of the extract will lighten the color a tad. The best way to add extract during the boil is to actually remove the kettle from the flame and slowly add the extract while stirring to keep the extract in suspension while it dissolves in, this will prevent the scorching you are experiencing. You need some of the extract in the wort during the boil to provide for proper hop utilization, it can not all be added at flameout.

You should read Palmer's book. He actually suggests doing this. You shouldn't harm your beer at all.

duboman said:

The best way to add extract during the boil is to actually remove the kettle from the flame and slowly add the extract while stirring to keep the extract in suspension while it dissolves in, this will prevent the scorching you are experiencing.

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This will probably fix your issue.

Thanks everyone. I will reply more later, but I will say for now, I have been very deliberate and careful about not scorching, but it keeps happening. I turn the burner off and remove it from the burner, I let it sit for probably about a minute stirring to ensure there aren't even hotspots remaining on the bottom of the pot, I stir in the LME, once it is all in there I continue stirring, I repeatedly scrape across the bottom and bring the spoon up to see if there is any indication of undissolved LME sitting on the bottom, I continue doing this until I feel kind of silly for not returning it to the heat already, then I stir it a bit longer and finally return it to the burner and turn the burner back on. when I am done and I rack the wort out of the pot, I see scortch marks. Not major ones, but there are faint, slightly darkened areas in a coil on the bottom of the pot where the burner would have been touching it. I assume that is not normal/good no matter if it is faint or not. I suppose I could stir more/longer, but honestly until I get a pot with a thicker base and/or start thinning out he boiled wort, I don't think i will completely get rid of it.

Thanks again for all of the feedback. I will try adding about a third of the total extract (dry first, then liquid if I need to) to the boil for hop utilization and the remainder at flameout.

Cheers!

Do you top these batches off at the end when you pitch your yeast.? Part of the problem is when boiling at only half the batch volume you create a super saturated solution. when you do this it will make it harder for all the malt sugar to dissolve thus increasining the chance for scorching. I would recomend getting a 7 gallon pot. amazon has a really nice one for about $65. Right now your just fighting the solubility laws of chemistry. Im not saying it cant be done with you set up but those are my thoughts as a chemist.

DickyBenfield said:

Thanks again for all of the feedback. I will try adding about a third of the total extract (dry first, then liquid if I need to) to the boil for hop utilization and the remainder at flameout.

Cheers!

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That sounds good, but you don't need extract in the wort for hops utilization- that's just not true. I've heard it said a few times, but I don't know of any scientific basis for that claim. To test, boil an ounce of hops in 2 gallons of water for an hour and drink it. I guarantee you it will be bitter!

Anyway, I think a good compromise is to use about a pound of extract (or equivalent if doing grains for part of the fermentables) per gallon of boil volume. So, for a 2-3 gallon boil, consider using 2 pounds of extract at the beginning, with the rest at flame out. I think you'll be happy with the results.

caioz1ip, yes, I boil about 2.5 - 3.0 gallons, then top off to 5 gallons at the end. That is sort of what I am thinking. I think it completely desolves, but the fact is 7 - 8 pounds of extract in 2.5 - 3 gallons is much more dense than the same amount of extract in 5 - 6 gallons, so it stands to reason that it could scorch easier. But if I cut that back to 2 or 3 pounds of extract it will be much closer to the gravity of a full volume boil. less darkening, less carmelization, less chance of scorch. As far as a 7 gallon pot, there are 2 problems with that. First is I don't have $65. I know it doesnt sound like much, but its just not in my budget right now. The second problem is that I don't think the burners on my stove top are capable of bringing that volume to a boil. Its a pretty lame electric range. If the pot were big enough to cover at least 2 burners, then it might. I just checked and if the pot were at least about 15" in diameter, then I think I could pull it off. I'll look at some pots and maybe in a couple of months I can pick one up.

Yooper, Thanks thats good to know. Im planning to brew Saturday. Thats definitely the route I'm going to go. I'll post how I think it turns out. But I'm confident that I will be pleased (hell, it doesn't take much to make me happy, so as long as I don't completely ruin a batch, I'm in good shape).

unionrdr, Thanks. I've been racking from the boil pot into the FV, but it takes most of the crap with it anyway, so I think I will try straining this time. To aerate, I've been shaking the hell out of the primary after I top it off, but after watching this "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vELwUsBmWQ" I think I might get a fish pump and stone... 25 minutes with an aquarium pump vs 15 minutes of shaking??? I think my arms would fall off!!! lol as far as the DME for the boil and LME at flameout, that is what I am thinking when I have DME in the recipe, but for example my NB Irish Red Ale kit doesnt call for any DME, just steeping grains and LME. I may add a pound of DME, but I don't want to add any more than a pound, and I may just add a little of the LME like 1/4 of it. But when possible, your method sounds like the way to go.

Thanks again...
Cheers,
Dicky

Yeah give t a shot, try doing about half the LME during the boil, remove from heat of course, then ad the rest at the end and stir for a good 5 minutes. As for you stove, and i fully respect your budget, you could look for low end outdoor turkey fryers. the propane heater works great and you can brew out side with them. my buddy did this because he had the same issue with an electric stove. just something to think about down the road.

unionrdr, Thanks again. I had not been continuing to stir throughout the boil. I will definitely try that as well.

caioz1jp, Thank you again too. I'll definitely give it a go on my brew this weekend. I definitely want to go to an outdoor propane burner and full volume boil, but that will definitely not be in my budget for a bit. What I have considered and may still end up doing, is splitting my batches into two half volume boils. Even though it would be more work, I could do that much sooner than I could get the stuff I need to do it all in one pot. Maybe I will try doing that on the batch after this one.

Cheers!