Looking for Bottle Carbing experts

Is there a site or book that really tells you all there is to know about bottle carbing.

Like how much is Corn sugar is needed for certain beers and how long it takes and all other of the hundred questions I have.

For instance.

I have a brew with 3.8oz corn sugar for carbing.

24 days - nothing yet. I SHOULD have something right - and if so why do some beers take 2 weeks and others longer ??? ??

I also have a Porter with 2.6oz (as recommended) and after 6 weeks nothing!! You would think I would have SOMETHING.

There's several threads and posts, and even a blog of mine about that very topic...if you'd actually use the search feature instead of starting a new thread everytime you want info (and calling anyone who dare suggest that you use the search feature a "search nazi" like you did to me once) you might actually find that there's a wealth of information ALREADY on here....

I have never measured sugar for bottling. I have just been using the coopers drops and it works perfect every time..

I use The Beer Recipator - Carbonation for my calculations.

When I was starting out, I think the following two sites were really the best, most informative reference for me:
Priming Procedures and A Primer on Priming (They contain a lot of the same info, but have a few differences between them)

This thread is helpful too: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/how-much-priming-sugar-use-40646/

As far as the two beers in question....... well, "the norm" says you should probably have carbonation by now. So let's start with a few questions, and see if we can uncover what's goin' on with these two "misbehavers", shall we?

First up, you said you used corn sugar/dextrose. How'd you mix it in? Can you tell me about your procedure for priming, right before you bottle?
Second, how long did the beer sit in primary/secondary before bottling? I know you've been brewing batches pretty rapidly, so I don't suspect it was more than a month. But sometimes, if let to sit for more than 6 or 7 weeks before bottling, the yeast can drop out, and not leave enough healthy cells to convert the priming sugar. Rare, but possible.
Third, how's the beer taste? Is it sweet? Do you have reason to suspect that the priming sugar is still there, in solution, and not converted? Or does it taste like it should, but flatter?
Fourth, how are you weighing out your sugar? Weight? Volume? Scale? Just curious - with dry powders, measuring can be a bit pesky.
Fifth, where/what temp are you storing these beers at? Cellar-to-room temp? Somewhere between 60*F-75*F? Temp can make the yeasties go sleepy, they might just need to be reawoken? (Probably not, but worth mentioning)

Let me know your thoughts on those ?'s, and we'll go from there. Sorry your beers aren't cooperating with you!

Revvy - blah blah blah.

you are the ONLY person on this site that irritates the hell out of me.

Thanks Chriso for being an adult and answering the question instead of aggressive pompous reaction.

First up, you said you used corn sugar/dextrose. How'd you mix it in? Can you tell me about your procedure for priming, right before you bottle?

pour the mixture into the mixture as the wort is spinning into the bottom of the bottling bucket.

Second, how long did the beer sit in primary/secondary before bottling? I know you've been brewing batches pretty rapidly, so I don't suspect it was more than a month. But sometimes, if let to sit for more than 6 or 7 weeks before bottling, the yeast can drop out, and not leave enough healthy cells to convert the priming sugar. Rare, but possible.
Third, how's the beer taste? Is it sweet? Do you have reason to suspect that the priming sugar is still there, in solution, and not converted? Or does it taste like it should, but flatter?

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For the beers in question 3 weeks in carboys. Does not taste that sweet.

Fourth, how are you weighing out your sugar? Weight? Volume? Scale? Just curious - with dry powders, measuring can be a bit pesky.

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Digital scale.

Fifth, where/what temp are you storing these beers at? Cellar-to-room temp? Somewhere between 60*F-75*F? Temp can make the yeasties go sleepy, they might just need to be reawoken? (Probably not, but worth mentioning)

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70 degrees

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So nothing really stands out and looking at the 8 books I have inhaled I can not see anything that stands out.

I have the knowledge but not the experience.

Just curious if there were any in deph studies (which a search did not bring up YET).

and the search police are not active.

Revvy - ALL you had to do was send me to your blog (which was not found in a search) instead of being aggressive and condescending.

Revvy was feeling a little frustrated, that's all. Let's keep it civil, and not let this spiral into a flame war, and just focus on the issue at hand, which is carbonation. We can all get along.

Everything looks fine in your process. I don't see anything sticking out. More in a little bit, I gotta mash in. The propane burner waits for no ones!!1

edit: I'm gonna park this link here ( http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Revvy/Of_Patience_and_Bottle_Conditioning/ ) - I know you found it already Grinder, just for the convenience of future searchers.

Yea - I'm sorry - wanted to delete my reply but no delete button on this forum.

His blog answered my questions sort of.

should be a sticky to his carb blog on this site.

Actually, as a Premium Supporter, you can delete your posts, just click Edit first. Then, at the bottom, a Delete button appears.

D'you think Apple Pie Amber Ale sounds good?

Sorry. I'm just second-guessing my recipe.

Damn these competitions. I always wind up making off-the-wall goofball beers for them, and it plugs up my beer pipeline. If I were brewing only for me, myself, and I, then I'd probably brew a SMaSH pale ale, and then a Hobgoblin, then another SMaSH, then more Hobgoblin, from now till the end of time.

*fret fret*

I hope I don't get another 12/50. That sucked.

I guess the question that I have SEARCHED for is WHY does some beer take longer then others - what is the chemical reason for this.

So I have only brewed and bottled 5 batches...the other two are in primary and secondary, but I have noticed that my bottle carbing is directly dependent on the temperature I store the bottles. My first two batches were being stored in a cool area and it took 3 weeks or so to carb to an acceptable level. The next batch wasn't that carbed after 10 days, but the room it was in got really warm for a few days as the temp increased outside and in the next 3 days fully carbed. I stored the next batch in the same room and it was carbed in 10 days @ 75 night 85 day temps. Got freaked out by the high temps and moved down to the basement and put bottles on the concrete floor. Temps averaged low 70's and it takes 2 weeks to carb and will finish in about 3.

So, if I want my beer to be full carbonated I will move it to a 80 degree place and it happens pretty quick. I also didn't notice any off flavors when bottles were carbed in a room at 80-85 degrees. Just made me feel more comfortable to have them at a lower temp that remained steady and basement was best place for that in the summer.

Grinder12000 said:

should be a sticky to his carb blog on this site.

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Revvy has a lot of really good info tucked away in his little brain...Even if you don't like the guy....it's worth it to be nice to him just to extract some of that knowledge....and once you get to know him...He's an alright guy...or maybe we are just the same kind of irritating

Naa - I hit a sore spot on him and he hit a sore spot on me so we both went off.

I really do apologize.

But back to carbing.

What steelerguy says is interesting - does anyone else want to raise their hand and say they have found this also??

Grinder12000 said:

Naa - I hit a sore spot on him and he hit a sore spot on me so we both went off. I really do apologize.

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I'm SO buyin' you both a beer. Glad to hear it!

As to carbing. I haven't bottled enough beer to know, to be honest. The one drawback to starting kegging so early (only bottled 6 batches) was that I didn't gain as much experience there as others did.

My 3rd batch, a blonde ale, was undercarbed due to a calculation error. That error still should've put me around 2.5 vols (instead of 3.0 vols), but it took forever to actually carb up. I remember putting them in a warm closet in December, and didn't start drinking them till April or May - but that was also partially due to oxidation from when I racked to the bottling bucket. (Was a dork and didn't keep the hose low enough. Just dangled it there and let 'er rip. D'oh!)

I'm trying to think who else around here has tons of bottling experience. So many of us love our kegs.

I have a fair amount of bottling experience (~15, 10-gallon batches) and have never noticed a problem like yours. I've bottled with corn sugar, spiese (saved wort), and carb tabs. Anytime I've bottled with a decent amount of corn sugar, they've come out decently carbed in 2-3 weeks.

There isn't really a significant science to carbing. It's essentially the same as any fermentation. You put in some sugar and the yeast in suspension slowly ferment it. As long as there are some healthy yeast in suspension (unless you filter, cold-crash, use finings, or do something else that would affect the amount of healthy yeast in suspension, there should be), stir up the beer/sugar solution well in the bottling bucket, and store at a temp close to primary fermentation temps, I can't imagine what could go wrong. So far, it sounds like you're doing all of this. Are your bottle caps not seating right and leaking? Are you using twist-off bottles or odd-sized bottles or mismatched bottle caps (size)? I guess what it comes down to is that there must be something wrong with the amount of yeast in suspension (or lack of viable yeast) or your bottles are leaking CO2. Your sugar amounts should be fine. That's all I got.

Another factor that comes into play is the viability of the yeast - and the effort they still have left to give. For example, I have a Dark Strong (12.5%) that is still carbing after 6+ months. Like most others, I check a bottle after about week 2 or so to see how it's coming, 95% of the time I have carbonation after 1 week. That one, it was 8 weeks before I even saw the tiniest hint of it.

So, like everything in homebrewing, lots of factors:

• Yeast Health
• Storage temperature
• Sugar evenly dispersed
• Gravity of wort (akin to #1)
• Leaks in capping (as mensa pointed out)

Grinder12000 said:

...what is the chemical reason for this.

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I'm not gonna hug you an sh*T...and I do think you could be a little quicker on the search function, and less on the posting for many of your questions...but that's neither here nor there...

The problem is you are trying to think of this in terms of Chemistry...Or at least in-organic chemistry (or like mixing koolaid; ) 2 dormant chemicals producing a reaction (like vinegar and baking soda.) That can pretty much be controlled, and calculated...

1 Ounce of Bicarbonate of Soda added to 1 fluid ounce of Vinegar produces X ounces of co2...

Although it SEEMS like it with beer, because we add x amount of sugar to the bottling bucket...it isn't really the case.

In brewing, carbonation has more in common with how you and I, and everyone on here eat and "process waste," than mixing vinegar and Bicarb. But as opposed to how we produce "certain compounds" (trying to be PC here) INCLUDING methane (hint, hint) the yeast produce Alcohol and CO2.

Different diets , different digestive systems, and different amounts of food will produce different "results," as well as the environmental conditions of where the organism is living in (Warm=more active, more hungry, more "waste" produced Cold=less active, less hungry, less "waste" produced.)

The kind of wast we want is CO2 absorbed back into the beer for carbonation. That means AFTER THE CO2 IS PRODUCED...it needs to be reabsorbed into the beer...the video I linked to on the blog shouws, what I call false carbonation.. That many new brewers swear that their 3 day old beer is carbed....It isn't...The beer is gassy, but the gas hasn't maxed out the headspace then gone back into the beer.

The kind of food, is the type of sugar used, as well as the type of fermentables already present after fermentation, the different digestive systems are the different types of yeast we use (they all have their own "eating habits." )

Also the size of the vessel can play a role as well....That's why it takes longer for a pint or a bomber to carb and condition than a 12 ouncer. (BK once explained it really well somewhere iirc.)

That's why if you play with numbers in beersmith, like, base style of beer, temp of beer at bottling time, temp of beer at storage, amount of priming sugar, size of bottle, type of priming sugar used (corn, brown, dme, krauzen,) you will get different volumes of co2 produced.

But even then it is a crapshoot...we are dealing with living things with their own timeframe and agendas...

That's why for "da n00bs" we recommend the "rule of thumb" 4-5 ounces of cprn sugar, 3 weeks @ 70 degrees...We know that it works in the ball park...maybe with an Efficiency of 80-90% of the time....good enough, and we can trouble shoot the rest.

But did you know that it is theoretically (at least from some books, and some number crunching in beersmith) to bottle carb your beer without any priming sugar at all? Just bottle, stick it in the closet and come back in a few months to drink...I can't say that I want to wait that long, nor would I be sure that the amount of carb produced would be enough to condition the beer enough to taste good.

(Remember "fizzyness" does a lot for the taste of something, as well as the body. That's way BMC's are so higly carbed....let one go flat and give it a taste...You'll see what I mean.)

Take a look at this post, from a highly contentious thread where a guy wanted to not prime some beer...I had ran some numbers on an esb, you can see how the different numbers affect the "output."

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/797980-post33.html

Hope this helps, clear it up for you....

Wow. I'm glad I missed that thread the first time around, Revvy. Talk about wanting to forcefully apply my #00 screwdriver directly to my eardrum.

Chriso said:

Wow. I'm glad I missed that thread the first time around, Revvy. Talk about wanting to forcefully apply my #00 screwdriver directly to my eardrum.

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It ACTUALLY got me thinking about that topic....and crunching numbers, which taught me a little more about the subject....That's why I say there's plenty of great sh*t on here, and it takes something digging...

I learned something that a lot of people don't realize about the search function...The default parameter for advanced searching is thread title...when you are searching for something, drop it down to search for the word or topic in the posts themselves...you'll get better results, especially if you know that someone on here might know about the topic...Like if I'm wanting Kegging info, and I know OllllO is "da bomb" on that subject, I'll type my search terms, set it for within posts, and add OllllO's name, and usually will find what I'm looking for in the first linkback...

Doing that might make people actually LIKE using search more, it get's better results than looking for thread titles...

Chriso said:

Wow. I'm glad I missed that thread the first time around, Revvy. Talk about wanting to forcefully apply my #00 screwdriver directly to my eardrum.

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I thought that thread looked familiar. I had to wait a few days before I posted just to see where it would go.

CO2 absorbed back into the beer

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An I presume this is what happened with a 11 day old brew that REALLY foamed up when I poured it into a glass a few nights ago. Surprised the crap out of me.

OK - so HOW does this carb get pushed back into the beer - what is the mechanism that does that!

(I'm not sure what I would use as a search criteria for that one)

It's pressure equalization within a closed vessel. It's the same thing that happens when you force carb beer in a keg. You are pressurizing the headspace, not the beer. Gradually, the beer absorbs the pressure from the headspace, into itself. That's why, when I hit a keg with 40psi when I've just put beer into it, and I come back 3 weeks later, the beer is still mostly flat, and the headspace is only at 5-10psi. It absorbed the small volume of CO2 in the headspace (very small physical area, even under pressure) into the very large volume of beer, and equalized the pressure.

So in the case of a bottle, the yeast eat the sugar, and poop out CO2. The CO2 goes out of the beer, into the headspace. The pressure builds, and builds. As the yeast stop producing CO2, and the beer stops releasing CO2, the beer begins to reabsorb it from the headspace.

I'm no physics nut, I'm just regurgitating what I've read. So if I mis-stated any of that, I'm very sorry, in advance.

Chriso said:

It's pressure equalization within a closed vessel. It's the same thing that happens when you force carb beer in a keg. You are pressurizing the headspace, not the beer. Gradually, the beer absorbs the pressure from the headspace, into itself. That's why, when I hit a keg with 40psi when I've just put beer into it, and I come back 3 weeks later, the beer is still mostly flat, and the headspace is only at 5-10psi. It absorbed the small volume of CO2 in the headspace (very small physical area, even under pressure) into the very large volume of beer, and equalized the pressure.

So in the case of a bottle, the yeast eat the sugar, and poop out CO2. The CO2 goes out of the beer, into the headspace. The pressure builds, and builds. As the yeast stop producing CO2, and the beer stops releasing CO2, the beer begins to reabsorb it from the headspace.

I'm no physics nut, I'm just regurgitating what I've read. So if I mis-stated any of that, I'm very sorry, in advance.

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I came to this party late, but it sounds like Chriso covered it all. The only thing I would add to this explanation is that being cold especially helps to force the co2 into the beer. What I mean is, a warm or only recently chilled carbonated beer may foam. Once it's thoroughly chilled, the co2 is less likely to come out of solution and cause foaming. Sometimes a foamy homebrew is actually just fine- it only needed to be chilled for 24 hours before opening.

Grinder12000 said:

An I presume this is what happened with a 11 day old brew that REALLY foamed up when I poured it into a glass a few nights ago. Surprised the crap out of me.

OK - so HOW does this carb get pushed back into the beer - what is the mechanism that does that!

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Chriso pretty well answered, Co2 maxes out in the headspace, so it has two choices, blow the top off the beer (or bottle bomb) for go back into the solution...since the lesser resistance is the liquid below, it will go back into the solution....It's after that gets maxed out (in over priming) and co2 is still building that bottle goes boom.

More than likely you caught it at that point where the co2 is high enough to gush and hasn't yet started to release the pressure by going back into solution....Or, less likely you have a gusher infection...

I'm betting too early. It sounds like you have what he showed in the first opening of the video I have linked on that blog...

[ame]http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlBlnTfZ2iw[/ame]

@Revvy- Too early is fine for the younger brew (and I agree) - but as Grinder mentioned, the Porter was bottled early August, and has been in the bottle for 6 weeks. (Grinder, is this the Dbl Choc Stout in your sig? Or a diff batch?)

Any chance you can chill one of those Lazy Porters in the fridge for a week, open, and report back? I wonder if that would increase the CO2 dissolved into solution?

This is half of why I switched to force carbing. WAY too much work trying to track "This jar of 2.1 vols for 2.5 gals at 3.1 ounces goes to beer X, and this jar of 2.8 vols for 5.0 vols at 6 ounces goes to beer Y." (Guess who severely undercarbed an IPA? This guy.)

Chriso said:

@Revvy- Too early is fine for the younger brew (and I agree) - but as Grinder mentioned, the Porter was bottled early August, and has been in the bottle for 6 weeks. (Grinder, is this the Dbl Choc Stout in your sig? Or a diff batch?)

Any chance you can chill one of those Lazy Porters in the fridge for a week, open, and report back? I wonder if that would increase the CO2 dissolved into solution?

This is half of why I switched to force carbing. WAY too much work trying to track "This jar of 2.1 vols for 2.5 gals at 3.1 ounces goes to beer X, and this jar of 2.8 vols for 5.0 vols at 6 ounces goes to beer Y." (Guess who severely undercarbed an IPA? This guy.)

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I thought he said it was only a few days in bottles....hmmm I have a similar issue with one of my porter recipes (it's a variation of Biermuncher's black pearle Porter) The started gushing after several weeks, they were fine intitially...I voted in my case for a gusher infection....They taste fine but they go woosh no matter how cold I get them...You open them, and there's a lag, and then woosh...foam city...

Revvy said:

I thought he said it was only a few days in bottles...

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I think that was a 3rd batch. There's "11 day old brew that REALLY foamed up when I poured it into a glass a few nights ago", 24-days-in-the-bottle batch, and 6-weeks Porter batch.

Do I have that right?

Correct - Porter Bottle date 8/10/08

The non-carbing is a Lazy Porter that I THINK was over diluted. Suppose to be a Porter but is pretty light tasting. I've looked at notes and all looks well. There IS a tiny bit of carbing and I did put a BUNCH (received rave reviews oddly) in the frig for a week.

To be honest I'm not personally excited about it anyway (Batch #2, Batch #1 was FUBR).

The 11 day old one (Batch #4) is a Maple Nut Brown where 1/2 cup of Maple syrup is added at bottling. Batch #3 is awesome tasting (seriously) and JUST starting to carb up nicely (just under 4 weeks).

Batch #5 was bottled yesterday Double Chocolate Stout.

The weird thing is AHS has a you putting 4.5oz corn Sugar in EVERY batch. That's not right. Why make a clone and drop the ball at the goal line.