How long before Kegging?

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medleblute

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This is a very general question and I'm sure my answers will be questions back to me - but if I'm brewing an average lager (I know, what exactly is an average lager) how long can something sit in the secondary? Or can I transfer to a tirtiary? How long can the beer sit before I bottle or keg it? I'm thinking about brewing again soon - I only have to corny kegs and currently they are both filled. OBVIOUSLY, I could work to empty them - but if I brew now, and it sits primary for 7-10 days, secondary for 4-6 days roughly... that is 2 weeks... what if it takes 4-5 weeks to get a keg empty?
 
medleblute said:
This is a very general question and I'm sure my answers will be questions back to me - but if I'm brewing an average lager (I know, what exactly is an average lager) how long can something sit in the secondary? Or can I transfer to a tirtiary? How long can the beer sit before I bottle or keg it? I'm thinking about brewing again soon - I only have to corny kegs and currently they are both filled. OBVIOUSLY, I could work to empty them - but if I brew now, and it sits primary for 7-10 days, secondary for 4-6 days roughly... that is 2 weeks... what if it takes 4-5 weeks to get a keg empty?
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It's not an issue so long as you don't have significant headspace with air (vs. CO2) possibly causing oxidation.

If you have two taps running, it's a good idea to have 4 kegs, especially if you're doing lager beers. You can ferment the normal time in the primary, cold crash, go straight to the keg and then cold lager it. It's nice to have one ready to hook up right after a keg kicks.
 
Are you lagering in the keg? 4-6 days in secondary isn't really lagering. Since you'll need to lager for a while anyway I'm not sure what the rush is. If you're talking about an ale, I wouldn't worry about it until it's 6-8 weeks in the primary.
 
If you truly want to make a Lager you should Secondary it at lagering temps for 8-12 weeks. That should give you plenty of time to open up another keg. I feel your pain though, I have 4 Taps and 4 Kegs. I can't consume it nearly fast enough to brew as much as I like. One of these days I'm gonna buy more kegs.
 
Yankeehillbrewer said:
If you truly want to make a Lager you should Secondary it at lagering temps for 8-12 weeks.
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That is way outside the necessary lagering time, if you ask me. Palmer recommends 8 weeks on the outside, and at the coldest temps:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-5.html

If I were the OP, I'd rack direct from primary to keg, tap it, and put at lager temps, then try it every few days, when your palate tells you its ready, its ready.

I bet if this is a normal lager-type beer (thinking 1.040ish, 3.5% ABV, light-body), it will be good to go in 2-3 weeks.
 
My standard brew schedule is:

Primary - 4 weeks - all beers
Secondary (beers with odd additions or dry hopping) - 2 more weeks then into the keg
Lagering - in keg 8-12 weeks to taste.
Once in the keg I have various schedules. Some beers will get topped with CO2 and put in the keezer to cold crash or lager. Some will get dry hopped at room temp with a minimal CO2 topping. Some will go right to the keezer to carb up for serving. I'll often transfer to a second keg for clarity after 2 weeks in the cold temps to leave sediment behind.

I'll keep sours, barley wines etc in the primary for much longer.
 
I gotta hand it to you guys, if I was waiting around 18-20 weeks for a beer to finish with 4-5 rackings to various containers, I would have given up this hobby a long time ago.

I'm skeptical of what sort of value you are adding in such a process (i.e. does this really improve the beer?), but whatever works for ya...
 
broadbill said:
I gotta hand it to you guys, if I was waiting around 18-20 weeks for a beer to finish with 4-5 rackings to various containers, I would have given up this hobby a long time ago.

I'm skeptical of what sort of value you are adding in such a process (i.e. does this really improve the beer?), but whatever works for ya...
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I should clarify - in the case of a lager my process looks like this:

4 weeks primary, racked carefully to keg, lager for 8-12 weeks to taste, drink.
 
brycelarson said:
I should clarify - in the case of a lager my process looks like this:

4 weeks primary, racked carefully to keg, lager for 8-12 weeks to taste, drink.
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So 16 weeks at the max...much better than 18 weeks! :)

Seriously, if you don't mind me asking...why so long? I'd be surprised if isn't at FG within 2 weeks of yeast pitch (and a diacetyl rest will get it there quick), then how much better does it get from say 3 weeks of lagering to 8? Are you really seeing a real taste difference there?
 
I think it depends on the beer. I've got a maibock lagering for 6 months. As that's what the author said when he thought it peaked. I do oktoberfests about the same. Lighter beers i'd do less time on.
 
I'm with broadbill here. I'm an all-ale guy so far, mostly because of all the extra time and effort involved in lager. How do you keep an all lager pipeline going (yes, I realize that you don't have to chose one or the other)?

I drink about a 5 gal keg per week so I brew a batch just about every weekend. I generally go grain to glass in about 14 days (a bit longer for my IIPA). I keep myself in ale with a bucket, two carboys, and two corny kegs (I have extra fermenters for mead, but that's another story). If I had to wait 12 weeks to drink a batch (on bryclearson's schedule), I'd need >4 fermenters and >8 kegs just to keep the pipeline going.

I admire your dedication.
 
For me on ale's I am grain to glass in about three weeks. Longer the higher the gravity.

I have a chest freezer so i'll do two lagers at a time and always have some in there lagering. When they're done and I have an open spot in the kegerator they go in.

My kegerator is 6 taps so I typically shoot to always have it full and two more ales fermenting waiting on open spots. I don't want to rush fermentation as beyond just hitting your target gravity there is more going on in there and I want to give it time to work out any off flavors.

Kegerator is full now so i'm working on my next recipes.
 
broadbill said:
So 16 weeks at the max...much better than 18 weeks! :)

Seriously, if you don't mind me asking...why so long? I'd be surprised if isn't at FG within 2 weeks of yeast pitch (and a diacetyl rest will get it there quick), then how much better does it get from say 3 weeks of lagering to 8? Are you really seeing a real taste difference there?
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I find that a month in the primary works for everything. Keeps things simple on my part. The taste of lagered beers does change out to at least 8 weeks, some beyond.

That said - I rarely lager because I can do a fantastic ale in 5 or 6 weeks, so the fermenter and keezer space isn't worth it.

I could move beers out of primary sooner than a month - but most benefit from the time. Cleaner, clearer etc. There are certainly beers I'll push through - if I need them for an event or if they style is better young - like the Belgian Wit I'm drinking the end of the keg of this week. It's tasty - but is starting to really clear up and get too basic tasting.

Edit for added note - I said above I can do an excellent ale in 5 or 6 weeks. I can also do a good ale in 3 weeks, but they're nearly always better another month down the road.
 
broadbill said:
That is way outside the necessary lagering time, if you ask me. Palmer recommends 8 weeks on the outside, and at the coldest temps:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-5.html

If I were the OP, I'd rack direct from primary to keg, tap it, and put at lager temps, then try it every few days, when your palate tells you its ready, its ready.

I bet if this is a normal lager-type beer (thinking 1.040ish, 3.5% ABV, light-body), it will be good to go in 2-3 weeks.
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If that works for you that's great. I'm looking at it from a historical perspective, which I fully realize doesn't really apply to today's brewing. It was also a bit tongue in cheek....guess that didn't come across so well.
 
Yankeehillbrewer said:
If that works for you that's great. I'm looking at it from a historical perspective, which I fully realize doesn't really apply to today's brewing. It was also a bit tongue in cheek....guess that didn't come across so well.
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Gotcha. I see that brewing "to history" means something to you...that's great, but I think it is good to point out the fact that doesn't mean that ALL lagers need to go that long. For example, just because they lagered Oktoberfests all summer at one point in history, doesn't necessarily mean that Oktoberfests as a style need to be lagered that long. In fact, I would bet the beer that is drunk at this years' Oktoberfest isn't any older than 6 weeks! (Even if they serve that style of beer still).

In any event, my comment was more directed to this misconception that seems to run rampant on this board that you need what wait, wait, wait to make beer. That there is a one month minimum primary fermentation for ales, and many months for lagers. If you have temp control, you can speed up the process greatly. Its how the brewing industry does it, homebrewers can do it too.
 
Almost all of my beers spend 10-14 days in the primary- including lagers.

I don't like the yeast character I find in beers with a long primary, especially in lagers which are supposed to be "clean" and crisp.

I rack to the keg at about day 10-14, depending on the beer and if it's dryhopping. Then, for a lager, I'll hold at 34 degrees for 1 week for every 8-10 points of OG (per Noonan's lager book). That means for a 1.068 lager, I'd lager it for 6-10 weeks. It can carb up on c02 while it's lagering in the keg.

For my ales, I carb and drink by about day 14-20.

A well made beer doesn't taste "green", and assuming the beer has had the proper amount of yeast pitched at the proper temperature and fermentation temperature held at the optimum temperature- the beer is ready pretty soon. Lagering does "crisp" up the beer (as it drops polyphenols out) so I don't rush lagering in my lagers.
 
Yooper said:
A well made beer doesn't taste "green", and assuming the beer has had the proper amount of yeast pitched at the proper temperature and fermentation temperature held at the optimum temperature- the beer is ready pretty soon.
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Well said. The month long primary advice is for better for novice brewers who under-pitch, don't oxygenate, and don't control their fermentation temperatures.

Commercial brewers are not letting standard gravity ales sit in their fermentors for 4 weeks. There's no reason it needs to be different for the homebrewer. The key is to take the necessary steps to to ensure an optimal fermentation.
 
Commercial breweries also do something else that gets their beer ready far sooner than the typical home brewer. Filtration. They filter out all those nasties that we wait to get chewed up by the yeast or drop out of suspension. I would say this is biggest reason we home brewers have to wait.
 
archer75 said:
Commercial breweries also do something else that gets their beer ready far sooner than the typical home brewer. Filtration. They filter out all those nasties that we wait to get chewed up by the yeast or drop out of suspension. I would say this is biggest reason we home brewers have to wait.
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No, most of the micros and brewpubs I frequent do not filter. The big breweries tend to, of course. I've had plenty of bottle-conditioned craft beer.

There shouldn't be any "nasties" floating around in there after about day 5-7 unless someone is a careless brewer. The yeast may be less flocculant (depending on strain) but even so by about 2-3 days after the beer reaches FG, the diacetyl that is going to be cleaned up will be cleaned up. A finished beer doesn't get "doner" by sitting. It may not harm the beer if you like the flavor the yeast imparts- but it may not help either.
 
Shakybones said:
I drink about a 5 gal keg per week so I brew a batch just about every weekend. I generally go grain to glass in about 14 days (a bit longer for my IIPA). I keep myself in ale with a bucket, two carboys, and two corny kegs (I have extra fermenters for mead, but that's another story). If I had to wait 12 weeks to drink a batch (on bryclearson's schedule), I'd need >4 fermenters and >8 kegs just to keep the pipeline going.
Click to expand...

One way to keep the pipeline full is to brew bigger batches. If you're drinking them that quickly, moving up to 10 gal batches will allow you to brew half as often to maintain the same pipeline.

You would still need more kegs, though.
 
archer75 said:
Commercial breweries also do something else that gets their beer ready far sooner than the typical home brewer. Filtration. They filter out all those nasties that we wait to get chewed up by the yeast or drop out of suspension. I would say this is biggest reason we home brewers have to wait.
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Proper fermentation temperature control:

morpheus beer.jpg
 
^ This is awesome. Although I bet Morpheus, in all his bada$$ery, goes from grain to glass in about an hour and a half.
 
kombat said:
:drunk:

That's almost 6 pints per night, every night of the week! The CDC defines "binge" drinking as 5 or more drinks (for men) in a 2 hour period.

I'm hoping you were exaggerating!
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Let's not comment on our thoughts on this- it's off topic, as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand, and it's also none of our business. Perhaps he has parties every Saturday, or perhaps not.
 
g-star said:
Commercial brewers are not letting standard gravity ales sit in their fermentors for 4 weeks. There's no reason it needs to be different for the homebrewer.
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Small nitpick - there is actually a difference due to the fermenter size and geometry. Large, tall, narrow cylindroconical fermenters exert a substantially higher hydrostatic pressure on the yeast, which is a facter in fermentation speed. Homebrewers typically ferment in small, short, wide buckets or carboys, which does not cause anywhere near such pressure, and will affect the speed of fermentation.
 
kombat said:
Small nitpick - there is actually a difference due to the fermenter size and geometry. Large, tall, narrow cylindroconical fermenters exert a substantially higher hydrostatic pressure on the yeast, which is a facter in fermentation speed. Homebrewers typically ferment in small, short, wide buckets or carboys, which does not cause anywhere near such pressure, and will affect the speed of fermentation.
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It shouldn't affect the speed of fermentation in the least. What it does do is put more pressure on the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter (not the ones in suspension that are actually doing the fermenting) so autolysis can be more of a concern if the beer is left to sit on the spent/flocculated yeast too long. The yeast cake doesn't "do" anything, as it's the active yeast that are doing the fermentation and cleaning up diacetyl, so the trub is typically dumped when it builds up.
 
kombat said:
Small nitpick - there is actually a difference due to the fermenter size and geometry. Large, tall, narrow cylindroconical fermenters exert a substantially higher hydrostatic pressure on the yeast, which is a facter in fermentation speed. Homebrewers typically ferment in small, short, wide buckets or carboys, which does not cause anywhere near such pressure, and will affect the speed of fermentation.
Click to expand...

Correct, just had that conversation with a pro-brewer who also works at my local HBS while measuring some grain. It's vastly faster to ferment in a large conical. While the process is similar - it's difficult to draw exact parallels between commercial and home brew.

I agree, you can get good beers in a very short time, that's not up for discussion. However, I have to defend the idea that beers continue to change for much longer than 3 weeks from brew day. I have good temperature control and pitch the right amount of healthy yeast - and when I rack to keg and carb my beers continue to change for a significant amount of time - almost always for the better.

If I just want good beer quick - the stores are right around the corner. If I'm going to go through the trouble of brewing my own I want to know that I'm getting as good a beer as I can. Time makes better beer. Fermenters are cheap - if you can't find 6 weeks to make a beer, buy more.

And, as I said earlier - I do make quick beers. My Belgian Wit is ready to drink in as little as 14 days. actually more like 10 if I want to force carb it. It's good - and doesn't get better with age. Nearly every other beer I make is better at 6 or 8 weeks than it was a 3.
 
Yooper said:
What it does do is put more pressure on the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter (not the ones in suspension that are actually doing the fermenting)
Click to expand...

Of course it does. That's why when you swim down to the bottom of a pool, you feel the pressure on your ears well before you reach the bottom. That's why if you want to dive into deep water, you need a metal diving suit. It's not simply the weight of the beer above pressing down on the yeast settled in the cone - it's the pressure all around them, and it increases with depth. That's what hydrostatic pressure is.

I'm not making this up; fermenter geometry is explored as a factor in numerous texts on brewing.
 
kombat said:
Of course it does. That's why when you swim down to the bottom of a pool, you feel the pressure on your ears well before you reach the bottom. That's why if you want to dive into deep water, you need a metal diving suit. It's not simply the weight of the beer above pressing down on the yeast settled in the cone - it's the pressure all around them, and it increases with depth. That's what hydrostatic pressure is.

I'm not making this up; fermenter geometry is explored as a factor in numerous texts on brewing.
Click to expand...

Correct. But it doesn't really affect the speed of fermentation in any meaningful way. The fermentation speed is mostly due to pitching rates, temperature, wort composition, etc.
 
brycelarson said:
Correct, just had that conversation with a pro-brewer who also works at my local HBS while measuring some grain. It's vastly faster to ferment in a large conical. While the process is similar - it's difficult to draw exact parallels between commercial and home brew.

I agree, you can get good beers in a very short time, that's not up for discussion. However, I have to defend the idea that beers continue to change for much longer than 3 weeks from brew day. I have good temperature control and pitch the right amount of healthy yeast - and when I rack to keg and carb my beers continue to change for a significant amount of time - almost always for the better.

If I just want good beer quick - the stores are right around the corner. If I'm going to go through the trouble of brewing my own I want to know that I'm getting as good a beer as I can. Time makes better beer. Fermenters are cheap - if you can't find 6 weeks to make a beer, buy more.

And, as I said earlier - I do make quick beers. My Belgian Wit is ready to drink in as little as 14 days. actually more like 10 if I want to force carb it. It's good - and doesn't get better with age. Nearly every other beer I make is better at 6 or 8 weeks than it was a 3.
Click to expand...

What sort of qualities are you referring to, that you are perceiving get better with age? My know my beer changes with age (for example, a sharp hop bitterness mellows with time, a change I DON'T appreciate), but there really isn't anything that I would classify as "improved".
 
broadbill said:
What sort of qualities are you referring to, that you are perceiving get better with age? My know my beer changes with age (for example, a sharp hop bitterness mellows with time, a change I DON'T appreciate), but there really isn't anything that I would classify as "improved".
Click to expand...

I've got only a moderate palette - so it's hard to exactly pinpoint. Don't get me wrong, I can tell that a beer is good early. Gravity samples tell me I'm going in the right direction - and when I'm checking carbonation I can tell it's going to settle into quality. Once it's carbed and stable usually the next few weeks in the keg on a younger beer there is a subtle shift. It's something mostly on the malt side - and depending on the beer it's from a few days to a few weeks until it just tastes right. At that point it's normally stable and stays pretty consistent until more extreme aging.

I don't know what the process is - would love to find out so that I can more closely control it.
 

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