Ommegang (WLP410?) issues

Harvested some yeast from the bottom of 2 750mL bottles of Ommegang. Stepped up the starters over the course of ~10 days. Had a nice thick layer of yeast. Starter tasted good (although it never fermented dry). Brewed a Hennepin clone.

8# Pilsener
3# 2 row
2# Corn sugar (last 15 minutes)

Mashed at 154 for 70'
OG 1.066

Took a while for the beer to take off at 74. Aerated by shaking very well for 5 minutes and pouring into the carboy from a good height. I had steady airlock activity after ~6 hours but it took almost 60 hours to show any real krausen. At peak krausen had a nice healthy looking 3 inch krausen. Not as robust as some people say, but I wasn't too worried. After about a week the krausen fell almost completely. Temp had risen to ~78 during fermentation. I just check the gravity this morning, just to see, and it is only at 1.050. Should I just keep rousing the fermenter? I know some people have said 410 is a slow starter, but does it ferment out slowly too? I know yeast color doesn't mean too much, but some of the videos I have seen online have 410 as really white, this stuff is a darker tan color but the yeast layer is probably 3 inches thick now. I am going to leave it, obviously, but just wanted to see if there is anything I can do to help it along.

Rouse, rouse, rouse, rouse. Blow off some of the CO2, get the yeast back in suspension, and they should finish the job.

If the yeast has flocc'd out already rousing isn't going to do much. When they decide they're done, they're done.

Some things to consider. Some yeasts do not produce much krausen, however Belgian strains tend to produce ample krausen with the exception of WYeast 3711.

Are you sure you read your hydrometer correctly? I find it hard to believe that even a under pitched pack of dry bread yeast wouldn't have taken the gravity further than 16 points down. There is a chance that something else was going on during your peak krausen and you pitched a very low viability culture of yeast. Keep an eye on it for a few days to see if activity spurs back up.

If all else fails call in the destroyer wyeast3711. Make a small starter using some of your underattenuated wort and pitch at 12-18hrs straight back into the beer. If that doesn't do the trick there's always brett.

Also where'd you hear WLP410 is Ommegang? I've used WLP410 in the past and I'm pitching it tomorrow or wedneday into a wit I have souring with lacto currently. I have not had an issue with it picking up and going and or finishing.

smokinghole said:

If all else fails call in the destroyer wyeast3711.

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haha, ain't that the truth.

smokinghole said:

If the yeast has flocc'd out already rousing isn't going to do much. When they decide they're done, they're done.

Some things to consider. Some yeasts do not produce much krausen, however Belgian strains tend to produce ample krausen with the exception of WYeast 3711.

Are you sure you read your hydrometer correctly? I find it hard to believe that even a under pitched pack of dry bread yeast wouldn't have taken the gravity further than 16 points down. There is a chance that something else was going on during your peak krausen and you pitched a very low viability culture of yeast. Keep an eye on it for a few days to see if activity spurs back up.

If all else fails call in the destroyer wyeast3711. Make a small starter using some of your underattenuated wort and pitch at 12-18hrs straight back into the beer. If that doesn't do the trick there's always brett.

Also where'd you hear WLP410 is Ommegang? I've used WLP410 in the past and I'm pitching it tomorrow or wedneday into a wit I have souring with lacto currently. I have not had an issue with it picking up and going and or finishing.

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The Mr. Malty strain chart lists 410 as Ommegang. I am sure about my hydrometer reading. It was degassed and at RT and I have been checking several other brews at various times and getting normal readings recently. It is still very sweet too. My starter went from ~1/4" of yeast on the bottom of a 2L flask to well over 1/2" in 18 hours. I would be surprised if it wasn't viable, but I guess anything is possible. I did find another blog where they used Ommegang dregs and got a much more violent fermentation than I got.

That's just weird. I can't offer much other help with out being able to look at it with a microscope and maybe some testing media.

If you absolutely want it destroyed in a few days there's always 3711. I just tossed some in a saison with dupont yeast that is taking longer than it should. It's been fermenting for three weeks and this point and hanging around 1.010. I want it down around 1.003 for blending with my other half. I just hope I don't come home to a mess because there's almost no head space.

smokinghole said:

That's just weird. I can't offer much other help with out being able to look at it with a microscope and maybe some testing media.

If you absolutely want it destroyed in a few days there's always 3711. I just tossed some in a saison with dupont yeast that is taking longer than it should. It's been fermenting for three weeks and this point and hanging around 1.010. I want it down around 1.003 for blending with my other half. I just hope I don't come home to a mess because there's almost no head space.

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Do you think it's worth it? It's pretty estery (obviously it is young). I wonder if it can be saved. I roused it pretty well this morning so we'll see what it's doing this evening.

If you can easily get 3711 I'd say it's worth it. I keep it on hand all the time. I just regrow the culture from time to time, I never use it as a primary yeast though. I just use it for its finishing and drying capabilities on stubborn saisons. Your other option would be to add 3711 and a brett to get rid of some of that estery character. The brett will consume some of the excessive esters. Now sure how willing you are to play with brett at this point though.

Or maybe try getting some more dregs and making another small starter? Just a thought. I just pitched a starter I made of some Ommegang dregs into a Witte clone and she took off like nothing I've ever seen. Krausen out the ass.

I also agree that 3711, "the destroyer" is a good backup plan.

bwomp313 said:

Or maybe try getting some more dregs and making another small starter? Just a thought. I just pitched a starter I made of some Ommegang dregs into a Witte clone and she took off like nothing I've ever seen. Krausen out the ass.

I also agree that 3711, "the destroyer" is a good backup plan.

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Wait. Drink more Hennepin AND potentially solve my problem. I like the way you think!

4 more days of rousing and no change. So I sent a squadron of 1.5L of 3711 at it. We'll see who's boss.

I just did a hennepin clone last sunday with pretty much the same grain bill. Went from 1.072 to 1.010 in about 3 days. Took the dregs of one bottle in 100ml then stepped it to 1l on a stir plate for a couple days. It was very milky white.
Pitched at 64 and let it rise to 80 and stopped it there.
The sample I took after 5 days was still white with suspended yeast.

stat said:

I just did a hennepin clone last sunday with pretty much the same grain bill. Went from 1.072 to 1.010 in about 3 days. Took the dregs of one bottle in 100ml then stepped it to 1l on a stir plate for a couple days. It was very milky white.
Pitched at 64 and let it rise to 80 and stopped it there.
The sample I took after 5 days was still white with suspended yeast.

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Oh well. I guess I'll have to try again.

i remember seeing/watching somewhere that the ommegang strain is different from duvel. cant remember where.

mewithstewpid said:

i remember seeing/watching somewhere that the ommegang strain is different from duvel. cant remember where.

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Yeah they are listed as different on Mr. Malty. Ommegang supposed to be 410 and Duvel is 570.

smokinghole said:

If you can easily get 3711 I'd say it's worth it. I keep it on hand all the time. I just regrow the culture from time to time, I never use it as a primary yeast though. I just use it for its finishing and drying capabilities on stubborn saisons. Your other option would be to add 3711 and a brett to get rid of some of that estery character. The brett will consume some of the excessive esters. Now sure how willing you are to play with brett at this point though.

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Holy Moses. Dropped the gravity down to 1.002 in 6 days

Taste is not bad already. A little warm, obviously, but it is still very young.
Thanks for the tip. We'll see how it ages.

Good to hear you got attenuation. That 3711 is a beast but the issue with it is that it doesn't really stop, as you just experienced.

smokinghole said:

Good to hear you got attenuation. That 3711 is a beast but the issue with it is that it doesn't really stop, as you just experienced.

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Well I guess 1.002 is better than 1.040! Lesson learned for next time: If your bottle-harvested starter is not fully attenuating your starter, start over.

thanks for this thread guys, i just learn something, i have a saison on schedule and was going to use 3711 for it but now i think i will use 3787 in one carboy and 3711 in another one, in case 3711 is to dry i will blend it

The only thing wrong with your plan is that unless you get all the 3711 out of the beer that's too dry it will likely consume the remainder of the extract left behind 3787. I like my saisons bone dry but I use 25% adjunct grists with rye or spelt and it goes very well with 1.002 and so on that I've been getting with ECY03.

thats true, somehow i missed that, it could work for someone who keg but i just bottle so you saved me 70 bottle bombs, thanks i guess i will just do two beers with 3787 and 3711 and dont blend them

Polboy said:

thats true, somehow i missed that, it could work for someone who keg but i just bottle so you saved me 70 bottle bombs, thanks i guess i will just do two beers with 3787 and 3711 and dont blend them

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Sounds like a cool experiment. Let us know how it goes.

I have used the dregs of Ommegang Witte, as has another poster on this thread. Hennepin is about 7.7% ABV - if I recall. Witte is a good bit less. Because of the higher alcohol in Hennepin, the yeast from the dregs may be more stressed to start. Maybe you'd have better success pulling the yeast from a few bottles of Witte.

smokinghole said:

Good to hear you got attenuation. That 3711 is a beast but the issue with it is that it doesn't really stop, as you just experienced.

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Thanks to everyone that suggested 3711. The beer is stronger than I had planned but it is very drinkable and it is only 10 days in the bottle. Most of the heat is gone and there is a little "funk" left behind. I think this is going to turn out to be a pretty darned good beer. It's not Hennepin, but it is a good (strong) saison.