Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging

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It's not called hot break but rather mashout. However, you don't need to mashout if you're batch sparging. Skip that 2qt addition before the sparge. At the end of the mash, drain the tun. In this brew that would have left 3 gal, and 2.5 gal respectively to sparge with. You're in a good spot with the sparge temps of about 180F but did you by chance measure the temp of the grainbed after you stirred the sparge in?

I suspect skipping that 2 qt mashout addition will give you a couple extra points of efficiency but you're missing it by a lot. I have to wonder about the crush. Take a picture of it next time.
 
At the end of the mash time, I didn't actually add 2qts of hot H20. It came from the Vorlauf, which I simply poured back on top of the grain bed.

No, I didn't remember to measure the temp of the grain bed after adding sparge water. Theoretically, it should be close to 170, right?

I'll try to get a pic up later
 
Kaiser said:
That was the driving point behind the two articles that I wrote about efficiency: to raise awareness that there are 2 major processes at work. Which are both mostly independent and which can even be measured as that.

One of the problems is that many use an old style mashing technique and expect modern day brewhouse efficiencies. Don’t get me wrong there is nothing bad about using old techniques. But single infusion mashing with about 1.25 qt/lb and a coarsely milled grist w/ batch sparging was never expected to produce efficiencies in the 90s. It’s what old Britsh ale breweries have used and some of them probably still use. To get into the 90s you need to use more modern techniques, which may not be the right choice for a traditional English ale but work for most modern beers. And that is a more tightly milled girst and/or more intense mashing (e.g. agitated mash) to allow better access to the stach. I’m also convinced that a thinner mash (1.5-2 qts/lb) does better. Recently I read that high sugar concentrations can raise the gelatinization temp of starch, i.e. make it harder for the mash to convert the last bit of starch.

Kai
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I am a beginner at this brewing, based in UK, and trying to make sense of so much. I do know a little bit about barley as my husband grow 400 acres of Maris Otter and what you say there about the traditional route for English efficiencies corresponds to what I got taught when I went on a microbrewery installation course (I'm converting our dairy for friends to play at brewing in hopefully one day with our own barley).

Anyway I got taught that for traditional UK bitters, IPAs and porters micros don't worry so much about the efficiency as high efficiencies can come from fermentable extracts that you dont want in the flavour for traditional ales (perhaps not the case in modern US ales).

Milling depends on size of grain but traditional 'cracked' not 'crushed', then mashing 'hot and thick', all these things reduce efficiencies down to 60-70% but leave the fermentable extract that you don't want behind.

So far I have always gone coarse grind and 'Hot and thick', usually 2.7kg grain:1 Litre water at 67C and 77C sparge.
I dont really understand yet just trying to stick to the Coarse grain/Hot and Thick Mantra for now til I understand better.

as they say 'there are many ways to skin a cat'...........:)https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
 
TimothyTaylorslLandlady said:
I am a beginner at this brewing, based in UK, and trying to make sense of so much. I do know a little bit about barley as my husband grow 400 acres of Maris Otter and what you say there about the traditional route for English efficiencies corresponds to what I got taught when I went on a microbrewery installation course
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Nice to hear that I’m on the right track with this. Initially I thought that one always wants to convert all the starches (i.e. 100% conversion efficiency) based the mostly German background of my brewing. But then I learned about the English mashes and that they may not get to that point b/c of the coarser crush and mash thickness.

Anyway I got taught that for traditional UK bitters, IPAs and porters micros don't worry so much about the efficiency as high efficiencies can come from fermentable extracts that you dont want in the flavour for traditional ales (perhaps not the case in modern US ales).
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That is interesting. But I think that additional extract doesn’t have to come from higher fermentables as long ad the initial heat (I think that’s what they call the starting temp in the UK, at least Briggs, a British author calls it that) of the mash is hot enough.

So far I have always gone coarse grind and 'Hot and thick', usually 2.7kg grain:1 Litre water at 67C and 77C sparge.
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Are you sure? 1 liter water to 2.7 kg of grain is about 0.37 l/kg or 0.17 qt/lb. This wouldn’t cover the grains at all and I think that you will need more water than that to gelatinize and convert the starches. Maybe you meant 2.7l to 1 kg of grain (i.e. 1.27 qt/lb)

I dont really understand yet just trying to stick to the Coarse grain/Hot and Thick Mantra for now til I understand better.
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That seems to be traditional and the best for the styles of beer you are brewing.


Kai
 
FlyGuy said:
• Also when batch sparging, it is critical that you stir the mash fully after adding mash-out water and/or the first sparge water addition. It may help to stir before each subsequent sparge water addition, but that depends on your system.
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I would only stir a few inches deep in order to avoid disturbing the grain bed which has sealed up and allowed the running to clear. If you disturb the grainbed, you will have to let the running clear again by cycling.
 
Originally Posted by FlyGuy
• Also when batch sparging, it is critical that you stir the mash fully after adding mash-out water and/or the first sparge water addition. It may help to stir before each subsequent sparge water addition, but that depends on your system.
Click to expand...

I would only stir a few inches deep in order to avoid disturbing the grain bed which has sealed up and allowed the running to clear. If you disturb the grainbed, you will have to let the running clear again by cycling.
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My procedure is this and I have done 40 plus this way with no problems:

Add my first water addition (mash out if you will) and stir deep and fully. Then vorlauf one to two quarts until clear and drain.

Add my second addition and stir deep and fully. Then vorlauf one to two quarts until clear and drain.

No shallow stirring here. The grain bed settles quite well without waiting after the stir but immediately start my vorlauf.
 
impatient said:
I would only stir a few inches deep in order to avoid disturbing the grain bed which has sealed up and allowed the running to clear. If you disturb the grainbed, you will have to let the running clear again by cycling.
Click to expand...
If you want to save a small bit of time, this would be true. However, this thread is about maximizing your efficiency, in which case it is a good idea to stir your mash after adding new sparge water (stirring and vorlaufing only takes me a couple of minutes, so it is worth it IMO).
 
FlyGuy said:
If you want to save a small bit of time, this would be true. However, this thread is about maximizing your efficiency, in which case it is a good idea to stir your mash after adding new sparge water (stirring and vorlaufing only takes me a couple of minutes, so it is worth it IMO).
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Cool, I'll try it next time.
 
Denny wrote:
My process and results are like Jerry's.
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My process and results I learned from Denny. :D

Thanks Denny,

You have helped me and countless others with your batch sparge writeup and your posts on various forums.:rockin:
 
I was getting in the sixties with my 'into the boiler' efficiency. My process was to mill the grain at the LHBS that is set at .40, mash for 60 minutes and then do a single sparge. I was unhappy with my eff into the boiler, so I started doing an infusion to bring the grain to 170 before lautering. That raised my eff a few points, but I was still in the sixties.

I made a friend and used his crankandstein set at .30 and my eff went up to the mid seventies, but it is a pain to borrow his mill every time I want to brew.

Finally, after almost two years of brewing, I discovered that I can use grain crushed at .40, mash for 60 minutes, infuse with boiling water to raise temp to 170 and then lauter slowly into the kettle, then sparge at 170, then lauter slowly, and I can get in the eighties for eff into the kettle.

My mash tun has copper tubing connected to a ball valve to get the wort out. For two years I had been just opening it up and letting it rip when I lauter. For grain milled at .30 my efficiency is good when I lauter fast, but for grain milled at .40 I need to lauter slower to get good efficiency.
 
mummasan said:
For grain milled at .30 my efficiency is good when I lauter fast, but for grain milled at .40 I need to lauter slower to get good efficiency.
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What is the mash thickness that you use to mash with?

One thing that can happen is that as you thin out and raise the temp of the mash that you convert some more of the starches that haven't been converted so far. The slower you lauter the more time you give this conversion. Since the conversion happens at higher temps you should have also seen a drop in attenuation for the beers done with .40 grain and a slow lauter compared to the ones done with .40 grain and a fast lauter.

Another effect might be that it takes longer for the sugars to be washed out of the larger grits and that a longer rest after the addition of sparge water benefits this process.

Kai
 
My last batch I tried mashing with 2 qt/lb and skipped the mash out - I got 74% efficiency into the kettle. I'm happy with this - I can skip the mash out and just do one sparge which makes the brew day a bit quicker.

Now I can follow recipes and come close to the target gravities. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Nice work. I m also trying to build up some good points on extraction efficiency. I will surely share all related issues here. Hope it may prove useful for some. For more details, members can pm me. I m always there at the service.
 
This comment doesn't increase efficiency from the Mash, but it is something I've learned that should be kept in mind by all grain brewers.

The two most important numbers during the brew are the OG after the boil and the gravity before the boil (in my humble opinion!).

I did all sorts of reading and research before starting to brew and didn't really see a lot about checking the gravity before boiling. It really is one of the most important checks in the process. If you know your boil off rate (you should) you can calculate what the gravity should be in order to nail your OG. When I batch sparge, I just keep batching and diluting whats already in the boil kettle until I hit my desired pre-boil gravity. Ever since I started doing this I've never missed my OG.

Pangea
 
So in some cases you might start the boil with, say, 8.5 gallons of total runnings for a 5 gallon batch and just boil, boil, boil...... ?
 
Recently I made a 10 gallon batch of cream Ale and decided to close the gap on my mill a little. I placed 2 credit cards together and used that as a feeler gauge. I did notice that it was a finer grind.

I use a stainless steel mesh for lautering and had my first stuck sparge.

Im not sure if it was my crush or the fact the I use a pump and pump the wort into the kettle. Im thinking that it may have been a combination of both the grind and the grain bed collapsing.

It sucked I had to lift the 15 gallon keg with 16 lbs of grain and 5 gallons of water and dump it into a cooler to Lauter.

My previous brew days were fine with the less fine crush. I did how ever notice that my efficiency went up a little.

Im going to try using a manifold I made next time. See how that goes.
 
Yes, great info on mash, sparge etc.
1st Question: What is "batch sparging"? I usually start my sparge water going, as well as starting to collect the runoff, but then stop the runoff when the level gets towards the grain bed (I know enough to keep plenty of h2o in the mash tun, above the grain, so I don't get stuck). Then I alternate between letting it in & letting it out until I've collected all my wort.
Q#2: Since I cannot add heat to my igloo mash tun, should the initial sparge h2o be @ 175 or more to raise the temp of the mash, or should I add small amount of near boiling water to the mash to raise temp to mash out temp? I've been using the 1st method, and usually the water in my hot water tank cools a bit during sparging, and I seem to get good results and gravity, so should I not worry (or be slightly concerned) about it or just brew?!?
 
mrsunshades said:
Yes, great info on mash, sparge etc.
1st Question: What is "batch sparging"? I usually start my sparge water going, as well as starting to collect the runoff, but then stop the runoff when the level gets towards the grain bed (I know enough to keep plenty of h2o in the mash tun, above the grain, so I don't get stuck). Then I alternate between letting it in & letting it out until I've collected all my wort.
Click to expand...
Your method is more like fly sparging, although you aren't continuously adding sparge water.

Batch sparging is when you drain the tun of wort, then add a 'batch' volume of sparge water, mix well, and drain again (sometimes 2 or 3 times). The water going in and the wort coming out is in discrete 'batches', hence the name.

Q#2: Since I cannot add heat to my igloo mash tun, should the initial sparge h2o be @ 175 or more to raise the temp of the mash, or should I add small amount of near boiling water to the mash to raise temp to mash out temp? I've been using the 1st method, and usually the water in my hot water tank cools a bit during sparging, and I seem to get good results and gravity, so should I not worry (or be slightly concerned) about it or just brew?!?
Click to expand...
Actually, you CAN add heat to your igloo mash tun, but that is another topic (see my steam mash thread in my sig). Anyways, whether or not to perform a mash out is a topic of debate. The bottom line is that for batch sparging, it is not necessary. However, you can (usually) gain a benefit from sparging very hot so that at the end of your sparging, your grain bed is up around 170F.
 
mrsunshades said:
Yes, great info on mash, sparge etc.
1st Question: What is "batch sparging"? I usually start my sparge water going, as well as starting to collect the runoff, but then stop the runoff when the level gets towards the grain bed (I know enough to keep plenty of h2o in the mash tun, above the grain, so I don't get stuck). Then I alternate between letting it in & letting it out until I've collected all my wort.
Click to expand...

see www.dennybrew.com for an explanation and technique
 
Hello Denny,

Sounds like you mill your own malt but have you see/heard how well the grind is at the Valley Vintner? I've been using them but have been having a hard time getting above 60-65% eff on my mash.

--BN
 
I usually shop at the "other" HB shop in town, so I don't have any first have experience with the crush at Valley. If I had to guess, I'd say it's too coarse. What is your system like? Could you be leaving wort behind? Is your water OK? Have you looked at Kai's work on conversion efficiency vs. extraction efficiency?
 
I'm thinking the water may be the issue. I'm in Rainbow water district and it tastes great so have never treated it. I do know from my my fish tank that the PH levels run a little high. I think it is around 6.5-6.8. I'll take a look at a pH stabilizer and see if that helps. Maybe submit a sample for testing.

I'll also take a look at Kai's worksheet later when I get home. I think I have most of the numbers needed to make the calculations there.
 
Has anyone ever tried to split the sparge into two let's say if you sparge with 6 gal you can do two with 3 gals each. The thought behind this is simple diffusion where sugars will more readily move into water when there is less sugar in the water to begin with. There for by starting with 2 fresh water additions the final amount of sugar extracted will be higher. Has anyone friend this?
 
This is the preferred method for a lot of people. I have tried it both ways and found that it didn't do much to improve my efficiency, but others have found it to be very helpful. It is definitely worth trying for yourself.
 
I fly sparge without a mash-out and get around 75% efficiency but more is always welcome. I like a thin mash - the thinner the better. Normally I aim for around 3L / kg but increase the ratio untill my 42L MLT can't take any more (normally not much more than 3L/kg for a 44L batch.

I'd be interested to hear what is a better procedure for increasing eficiency : mashing thicker (say 2.5L/kg) which will allow space in the MLT for a mash-out or going as thin a mash as possible without a mash-out.
Any guesses ?
 
ekjohns said:
Has anyone ever tried to split the sparge into two let's say if you sparge with 6 gal you can do two with 3 gals each. The thought behind this is simple diffusion where sugars will more readily move into water when there is less sugar in the water to begin with. There for by starting with 2 fresh water additions the final amount of sugar extracted will be higher. Has anyone friend this?
Click to expand...


I've tried it and I didn't find enough gain to justify the time and effort. If you really wanted to eke out every last gravity point, it would do that. To me, it's a waste of time.
 
Denny said:
I've tried it and I didn't find enough gain to justify the time and effort. If you really wanted to eke out every last gravity point, it would do that. To me, it's a waste of time.
Click to expand...

I think there is some validity to that theory though.

Back when I was doing countertop partial mashes (in a 3G cooler) with full boils I would do 3 sparges of 2.5 gallons each. I would get really high efficiency- Always in the 90s.

Now I do AG in a 10G cooler and have been doing one 3.5 G batch sparge. These days I usually get 80%. I am still pretty happy with 80%, don't get me wrong but I might try splitting my sparge as an experiment next time and see what happens
 
Denny said:
I usually shop at the "other" HB shop in town, so I don't have any first have experience with the crush at Valley. If I had to guess, I'd say it's too coarse. What is your system like? Could you be leaving wort behind? Is your water OK? Have you looked at Kai's work on conversion efficiency vs. extraction efficiency?
Click to expand...

I tried the pH stabilizer 5.2 with my and jumped 10 points in my efficiency and overshot my target OG of 1.056 to 1.064 which brought it my eff up to around 74%. :) Much better.
 
I also increase my sparge water temp about 5 degrees. I usually bring the grain up to 165 on the sparge and brought it up to 170 this time. I'm hoping it is not a fluke but will see on the next batch. Not sure if it was the temp or the stabilizer but my sparge OG was 1.042 with an estimated pre-boil gravity of 1.048.
 
I really doubt it was the temp. I haven't sen that have any effect and Kai's experiment with cold sparging seems to back that up.
 
Denny said:
I really doubt it was the temp. I haven't sen that have any effect and Kai's experiment with cold sparging seems to back that up.
Click to expand...

Denny -- something for you to consider is that you are already getting pretty much optimal efficiency at 85%+. It is not surprising that when you make changes/improvements to your process, such as pH buffers or hot sparges, that you don't see an increase in your efficiency. You have no where left to go!

But for someone struggling with low efficiency, these little tips can sometimes make a world of difference.

Cheers! :mug:
 

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