caps leaking shortly after bottling mead....

So I just bottled my mead yesterday after adding sorbate and metabisulfite a couple weeks ago. I have had bottles stored at a downward angle (as you would for corks). Noticed today that a few of the caps are slowly leaking... like a couple had accumulated about a drops worth on the undersurface of the cap overnight. I have had the caps for a few years and used them a 3-4 times.

These are the kind of caps: "28mm PolySeal Screw Caps"
http://www.homebrewing.org/Polyseal-Caps-28mm_p_3131.html

So what is the best course of action? I was thinking about buying all new new caps and replacing all of them. This shouldn't ruin the batch, correct?

Why store them upside down? That's just to prevent cork dry-up.

If you're planning on storing these for a while, you might want to cork them. It will probably oxidize quicker with these caps.

You only need to store laying down when using natural corks, to prevent them from drying out. If you're using caps (of any kind) or synthetic corks, it's not needed.

I did just check my wine bottles. I can't see how these things could work on them...

Only storing them like this because that is how my wine racks were built- to hold the wine sloping down.

You do need special bottles to use these caps. Caps are a lot easier than corks and I had read articles in the past saying that today's caps are just as effective as corks. The trouble is that I reused old caps :/

My real question is if it will hurt to replace all caps today or if I should only replace the ones that are noticeably leaking?

fun4stuff said:

Only storing them like this because that is how my wine racks were built- to hold the wine sloping down.

You do need special bottles to use these caps. Caps are a lot easier than corks and I had read articles in the past saying that today's caps are just as effective as corks. The trouble is that I reused old caps :/

My real question is if it will hurt to replace all caps today or if I should only replace the ones that are noticeably leaking?

Click to expand...

I would replace them all with corks.

Make sure you screw them down TIGHT by hand and store them standing up. I am assuming you are putting these and the right kind of bottlew and not just a random collection of different bottles you have been collecting for this batch? I just uncapped an 2008 dried elderberry mead using this very same cap, the wine was excellent, no oxidation, no leakage, so they are good for at least 5 years. Good Luck, you might to uncap the leakers, clean around the treads and cap again. Did you soak the caps in some KMeta before you used them? WVMJ

fun4stuff said:

So I just bottled my mead yesterday after adding sorbate and metabisulfite a couple weeks ago. I have had bottles stored at a downward angle (as you would for corks). Noticed today that a few of the caps are slowly leaking... like a couple had accumulated about a drops worth on the undersurface of the cap overnight. I have had the caps for a few years and used them a 3-4 times.

These are the kind of caps: "28mm PolySeal Screw Caps"
http://www.homebrewing.org/Polyseal-Caps-28mm_p_3131.html

So what is the best course of action? I was thinking about buying all new new caps and replacing all of them. This shouldn't ruin the batch, correct?

Click to expand...

Golddiggie said:

I would replace them all with corks.

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_wine_closure#Screw_caps

fun4stuff said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_wine_closure#Screw_caps

Click to expand...

Don't care, NOT going to put fun king screw caps on my bottles of mead. Besides, they're made for corks, not screw caps. I have no issue with laying [natural] corked bottles on their sides. I even have some synthetic corks (used them in my blackberry melomel as a test). But there's no fun king way I'm going to change over my bottles and use the low-class screw tops.

Golddiggie said:

Don't care, NOT going to put fun king screw caps on my bottles of mead. Besides, they're made for corks, not screw caps. I have no issue with laying [natural] corked bottles on their sides. I even have some synthetic corks (used them in my blackberry melomel as a test). But there's no fun king way I'm going to change over my bottles and use the low-class screw tops.

Click to expand...

And despite all the advances in materials and closures, caps etc, if plastic and/or crimped metal caps are so effective, why does it seem that once you get past the budget bin in the wine store, all the better/best stuff is still capped with cork ?

Of course, it might be just a tradition thing, or practical cost consideration of new plant and accessories installation, or heaven forbid, because corks work....

fatbloke said:

And despite all the advances in materials and closures, caps etc, if plastic and/or crimped metal caps are so effective, why does it seem that once you get past the budget bin in the wine store, all the better/best stuff is still capped with cork ?

Of course, it might be just a tradition thing, or practical cost consideration of new plant and accessories installation, or heaven forbid, because corks work....

Click to expand...

Exactly. Corks have been used for millenia. IF they didn't work well, we wouldn't have 50+, or 100+ year old wines that are viable to go to glass. Granted, you need to properly care for the wines, but anyone that's serious about it will do so.

Personally, I won't buy a wine that's not corked.

As mentioned, all my bottles are made for corks. I'm not about to replace them just so I can put screw caps on them. I'm actually getting ready to get a new floor corker (sold my old one) so that I can cork more things. I'll be able to cork champagne bottles with the new one. So I could use those bottles, for even better presentation. Even if what's in them is not carbonated.

So i've only corked a couple batches before and it did not turn out well. First of all, at the time I was a student and could not afford a corker, so I was putting them in basically by hand with the aid of this plastic piece that you used to squish the cork into the bottle. It was tiring and painful on the hands. I even broke a bottle putting a cork in and nearly sliced my hand open.

Additionally, I think the corks must have been cheap because some of them leaked (like after a few months a few drops of thick, syrup-consistency wine seeped out and beaded up at ends of the bottles. Not sure if this is normal. The other thing was that when I tried removing the corks, they crumbled and came out in pieces (crumbs in the wine). I had to filter the wine with coffee filters to get the fine crumbs out.

I never corked since (~6 years ago). I did have some mead that I was able to keep for 3 years (bottle capped) that was fine to drink. Another batch went bad after ~6 months (but i tried only using sorbate without sulfites and think that was the problem). The rest of my batches i have finished drinking within 2 yrs.

So you think I would have a better experience with corks if I bought a corker and higher quality corks?

Is there going to be a high chance of oxidation if I remove the caps and then cork?

So first time you went cheap and had pain and fail because of it. Probably used the cheapest corks you could find/buy too, right?

The absolute lowest cost corks I'll use are the amalgamated. Otherwise I go for the best corks I can find. Better corks will hold up far better. I have mead that's over two years old in bottles (over a year for most of what I have left) that have had zero issues. I didn't chemically treat the batch either, so don't blame that for the issue batch you had.

IMO, if you have a good corker (my preference is for a floor corker) then you'll have far less issues. Soak the corks to make sure they're safe and go for it. I would remove the cap right before you insert the cork in it's place. If you have any doubts, then get a CO2 source and give it a little squirt before you push the cork in.

IMO/IME, trying to go the cheapest route (cost wise) is often going to become the most expensive route.

What about wax? Makers Mark looks cool with the wax, and it's cheap.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/2010/11/20/wax-sealed-home-brew-tested/

twalte said:

What about wax? Makers Mark looks cool with the wax, and it's cheap.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/2010/11/20/wax-sealed-home-brew-tested/

Click to expand...

They also don't use twist-off caps. I picked up a bottle of MM46 before the holiday. They use 'zorks' in the bottles, covered in wax until opened.

IF you wanted to use zorks, you would need to be sure they fit tight, and then dip them into hot wax to seal up.

I've been using PVC sleeves to go over the bottle tops, more for presentation than anything else. They are heat-shrink covers, so they close up around the tops nicely. IMO, gives it a bit more class than just corks alone. But, I still use good quality corks there.

Golddiggie said:

So first time you went cheap and had pain and fail because of it. Probably used the cheapest corks you could find/buy too, right?

The absolute lowest cost corks I'll use are the amalgamated. Otherwise I go for the best corks I can find. Better corks will hold up far better. I have mead that's over two years old in bottles (over a year for most of what I have left) that have had zero issues. I didn't chemically treat the batch either, so don't blame that for the issue batch you had.

IMO, if you have a good corker (my preference is for a floor corker) then you'll have far less issues. Soak the corks to make sure they're safe and go for it. I would remove the cap right before you insert the cork in it's place. If you have any doubts, then get a CO2 source and give it a little squirt before you push the cork in.

IMO/IME, trying to go the cheapest route (cost wise) is often going to become the most expensive route.

Click to expand...

You soak every one of your corks? You must be a pro cork soaker by now! How many can you do at a time? What are your favorite kinds to soak?

m_stodd said:

You soak every one of your corks? You must be a pro cork soaker by now! How many can you do at a time? What are your favorite kinds to soak?

Click to expand...

Container with Star San solution. :rockin: I do enough at one time to cork the batch at hand. A 6 cup container (Glad, Ziplock) holds enough. I put them in, cover in Star San, place the lid on and let them soak while I'm getting setup. Then, when I'm ready to cork, I just drain them and go ahead and use them. No nasty chemicals are added to the batch, and they're sanitized fully. They also slide down into the bottle nicely, but don't come back out either.

Golddiggie said:

So first time you went cheap and had pain and fail because of it. Probably used the cheapest corks you could find/buy too, right?

The absolute lowest cost corks I'll use are the amalgamated. Otherwise I go for the best corks I can find. Better corks will hold up far better. I have mead that's over two years old in bottles (over a year for most of what I have left) that have had zero issues. I didn't chemically treat the batch either, so don't blame that for the issue batch you had.

IMO, if you have a good corker (my preference is for a floor corker) then you'll have far less issues. Soak the corks to make sure they're safe and go for it. I would remove the cap right before you insert the cork in it's place. If you have any doubts, then get a CO2 source and give it a little squirt before you push the cork in.

IMO/IME, trying to go the cheapest route (cost wise) is often going to become the most expensive route.

Click to expand...

Yeah, bought cheap corks. Was a student at the time and could barely afford my rent and utilities.

That is pretty impressive- 2 years and you do not add sorbate or sulfite? Do you fill your bottles to the brim or use CO2 to get all oxygen out?

I've used wax with corks, as well. It was pretty messy removing the wax afterwards. But again, I think I used regular old candle wax. Maybe it would be less messy with what is suggested above.

fatbloke said:

And despite all the advances in materials and closures, caps etc, if plastic and/or crimped metal caps are so effective, why does it seem that once you get past the budget bin in the wine store, all the better/best stuff is still capped with cork ?

Of course, it might be just a tradition thing, or practical cost consideration of new plant and accessories installation, or heaven forbid, because corks work....

Click to expand...

To answer your question, why we still use corks, it has more to do with psychology than quality. Ironically, the rest of your statement helps explain it. People have a perception that "fine wine" uses corks and only cheap wines use twist tops because it is cheaper to bottle that way, regardless of quality loss. The cheaper wines switched over first, because the process is cheaper, and it makes a big difference since they make their profit on volume. Since cheaper wines switched first, people started associating screw tops and budget wine, same with boxes, regardless of the merits of the process. you saw the data, screw tops do actually preserve wine better.

So the question is, are you more interested in quality mead or the appearance of quality that you associate with corks?

This is similar to a recent concept called "conspicuous conservation", where people are more interested in the appearance of being environmentally minded than actually doing so. Economists studying the phenomenon have found that people installing solar panels overwhelmingly opt for the most visible spot on their roof (like a northern facing front of the house) rather than a more efficient placement (southern facing rear of the house).

fun4stuff said:

Yeah, bought cheap corks. Was a student at the time and could barely afford my rent and utilities.

That is pretty impressive- 2 years and you do not add sorbate or sulfite? Do you fill your bottles to the brim or use CO2 to get all oxygen out?

I've used wax with corks, as well. It was pretty messy removing the wax afterwards. But again, I think I used regular old candle wax. Maybe it would be less messy with what is suggested above.

Click to expand...

The batches that I gave enough time too (I bottled the first two too early) haven't had any issue at all without being chemically treated. I have the stuff on hand, just don't need to use it (nor do I want to). I simply bottle normally, filling to the top with the wand/filler/beer gun in the bottle then remove. Leaves enough head space for the corks to fill nicely.

I use bottle wax, not candle wax, on mine. I've melted some of the black and red so far (in separate pots) and plan on using the gold with a future batch (the one that I want to push to the limits of WLP099).

nitack said:

To answer your question, why we still use corks, it has more to do with psychology than quality. Ironically, the rest of your statement helps explain it. People have a perception that "fine wine" uses corks and only cheap wines use twist tops because it is cheaper to bottle that way, regardless of quality loss. The cheaper wines switched over first, because the process is cheaper, and it makes a big difference since they make their profit on volume. Since cheaper wines switched first, people started associating screw tops and budget wine, same with boxes, regardless of the merits of the process. you saw the data, screw tops do actually preserve wine better.

So the question is, are you more interested in quality mead or the appearance of quality that you associate with corks?

This is similar to a recent concept called "conspicuous conservation", where people are more interested in the appearance of being environmentally minded than actually doing so. Economists studying the phenomenon have found that people installing solar panels overwhelmingly opt for the most visible spot on their roof (like a northern facing front of the house) rather than a more efficient placement (southern facing rear of the house).

Click to expand...

Switching over to screw-tops isn't cheaper if it means you need to toss all your existing bottles in order to make the change. It's cheaper to continue using the bottles you have on hand, and buy more corks. Since cork trees are actually NOT cut down to harvest, it's a sustainable resource. The cost of high quality cork will go up and they don't wait long enough for the trees to recover, but that's an issue with the industry.

IMO, tossing away the plastic screw tops is more environmentally unfriendly than using biodegradable corks.

Since corks can provide a tight seal, provided you use the correct size for the bottles, I don't see the need/reason to go the cheap route.

As for the solar panel example... Most of the people I know that have thought about it haven't given a rat's posterior as to what it looks like. They were more interested in placing them where they'll perform to the maximum. More than a few were told that their roof simply wasn't facing the right direction for panels to be a viable option. When I get a house, I'll look at all the additional energy source options available to me. If I have a place that can support it, I'll get a wind turbine (or two, or three) installed. If I can get solar panels on the roof, I'll get them too. Anything I can do to get less power from the grid. If the house has a fireplace, I plan to use it too. Either just a good fire when needed/wanted, or install a stove to use it (pellet, coal, whatever I can get installed). Provided the fuel for the stove doesn't end up costing more per season than running the heating system.

Am I reading your post right that you have reused these caps 3-4 times already? And you wonder why they leak when you store them on their side which isnt the way they are supposed to be stored anyway? They are so cheap get a bag of 100 at a time, they work well NEW! WVMJ

fun4stuff said:

So I just bottled my mead yesterday after adding sorbate and metabisulfite a couple weeks ago. I have had bottles stored at a downward angle (as you would for corks). Noticed today that a few of the caps are slowly leaking... like a couple had accumulated about a drops worth on the undersurface of the cap overnight. I have had the caps for a few years and used them a 3-4 times.

These are the kind of caps: "28mm PolySeal Screw Caps"
http://www.homebrewing.org/Polyseal-Caps-28mm_p_3131.html

So what is the best course of action? I was thinking about buying all new new caps and replacing all of them. This shouldn't ruin the batch, correct?

Click to expand...

WVMJ said:

Am I reading your post right that you have reused these caps 3-4 times already? And you wonder why they leak when you store them on their side which isnt the way they are supposed to be stored anyway? They are so cheap get a bag of 100 at a time, they work well NEW! WVMJ

Click to expand...

I am only storing on their side because that is how my wine racks are made- to store wine in the traditional fashion, sloping down. Are the caps I have listed above really less effective when stored in this manner?

These caps are made to be reused more than once (see link). I figured out why a few were leaking. In case anyone else ever has this problem, this is why I think they are leaking: these caps have an inner seal formed by a hollow plastic piece shaped like a cone with the narrow portion pointed toward the bottle (See picture in link). While washing, water would get trapped between this plastic cone and the cap. TO get the water out, I would push in on the cone in order to release this water. Well, after pushing them in so many times, it deformed the cone and broke that seal. My solution to anyone else would be to let the water run out of them/evaporate for a couple days after washing them, then carefully wash them with the sanitizing solution right before bottling.

Golddiggie said:

Switching over to screw-tops isn't cheaper if it means you need to toss all your existing bottles in order to make the change. It's cheaper to continue using the bottles you have on hand, and buy more corks. Since cork trees are actually NOT cut down to harvest, it's a sustainable resource. The cost of high quality cork will go up and they don't wait long enough for the trees to recover, but that's an issue with the industry.

IMO, tossing away the plastic screw tops is more environmentally unfriendly than using biodegradable corks.

Since corks can provide a tight seal, provided you use the correct size for the bottles, I don't see the need/reason to go the cheap route.

As for the solar panel example... Most of the people I know that have thought about it haven't given a rat's posterior as to what it looks like. They were more interested in placing them where they'll perform to the maximum. More than a few were told that their roof simply wasn't facing the right direction for panels to be a viable option. When I get a house, I'll look at all the additional energy source options available to me. If I have a place that can support it, I'll get a wind turbine (or two, or three) installed. If I can get solar panels on the roof, I'll get them too. Anything I can do to get less power from the grid. If the house has a fireplace, I plan to use it too. Either just a good fire when needed/wanted, or install a stove to use it (pellet, coal, whatever I can get installed). Provided the fuel for the stove doesn't end up costing more per season than running the heating system.

Click to expand...

Corks- not necessarily environmentally friendlier. Most use binders and resins that do not biodegrade and render the cork itself non- biodegradable.

Solar panels - well data doesn't lie http://areweb.berkeley.edu/fields/erep/seminar/Prius_Effect_V1.5.1.pdf

OK, but I think they mean to reuse on the bottle it was originally put onto for the time it takes you to use the product, not to keep reusing them for several years on different bottle, but hey, no problem, I am not the one with leaky bottles WVMJ

so if you're storing them upright, are the PolySeal Screw Caps useable for long term storage?