Propane or Electric

This summer, I hope to put together a system for all grain brewing. At this point I'm very early in the planning phase. What I have is two big aluminum pots in the 20-30 gallon range. (not sure of the exact size they are being donated by a friend)

The first question I need to answer is propane or electric? I am hoping HBT can help me with this decision.

Is it safe to use propane inside a garage or should this be done outside?
Do I need a 240v source for electric?
What about overall costs?
What are the other factors that I need to consider?

Thanks in advance,

Art

I use propane inside a garage all the time, I just keep the door mostly open and the burner closer to the edge.

I don't know enough on electric to help but I would like to know the pro / con situation also since I am starting to go down the same road.

A propane rig will be cheaper to build. Electric is better (IMO) if you want an automated system. Is that a design goal?

I use propane in the garage, but unless you scoot way up towards the door, it gets pretty bad pretty quick. I keep a fan running, and I have an CO sensor that I take with me, just to be super safe. With electric, you don't always need 240 VAC to run the system, there are a few heating elements that run off 110.

Electric is usually going to be a more substantial initial investment. We're talking ~$180 per heating element unless you DIY it (which I do not recommend, unless you really know what you're doing with electrical equipment). Propane burners are $50-$150 each depending on the quality you want, but you can get a damn fine propane burner for $100. Just keep in mind that you'll have buy propane tanks if you don't already own a couple, and you'll have to pay to refill them. Propane seems to be the more expensive setup over a long period of time.

Personally, I'm still deciding between Blichmanns or Coolers, but I've got 6 months to plan my setup. Just be sure and post pics when you build yours! You know how we all love beer porn.

+1 to Lil Sparky. I think it depends on your ultimate goals on which system is better. I will try a quick stab at pros and cons of each, but the list is by no means comprehensive, so if someone sees something blatantly wrong, please let me know.

Propane Pros:
-Cheaper to build
-Portable
-Open flames are always cool

Cons:
-Realizing you are out of propane before a brew day
-Keeping multiple propane tanks on hand
-ventilation if brewing indoors
-Cost of propane adds up over time

Electric Pros:
-Can automate
-Cheaper brewday (I think I say it cost about $1 in electricity for a brewday)
-Dont need extensive ventilation
-can brew indoors more redily

Cons:
-finding power source if you want to go 220V
-not as portable
-more complex=more things can go wrong
-Must make sure elements are covered at all times or it can be bad.

To the cons list for electric, I would add that it's a PITA if you're using coolers. How many "OMFG the heating element melted my cooler!" threads have we had around here?

Other than that, good write up, my young Pro Vs. Con Padawan.

Would you guys say noise is an issue with propane? I know when I'm blasting my kettle it sounds like a Fighter Jet is stuck in my garage with me.

llazy_llama said:

Electric is usually going to be a more substantial initial investment. We're talking ~$180 per heating element unless you DIY it (which I do not recommend, unless you really know what you're doing with electrical equipment). Propane burners are $50-$150 each depending on the quality you want, but you can get a damn fine propane burner for $100. Just keep in mind that you'll have buy propane tanks if you don't already own a couple, and you'll have to pay to refill them. Propane seems to be the more expensive setup over a long period of time.

Click to expand...

I don't know how much heating elements cost, and I don't really know how much electricity they use over the course of a 10 gal brew day. Those are high wattage elements running for a few hours, so I'd guess a few bucks. That's about what I spend in propane. I can get between 2-3 brews out of a tank that costs $11 to refill (talking 10 gal batches here).

I'm guessing your $50-150 quote for propane burners is really for some kind of turkey fryer setup. My 3 burners + plumbing + regulator that I have on my stand only cost ~ $100 all together. Even if you wanted to have multiple turkey friers, you can usually find them for ~ $30 if you look around.

Anyway, I think propane is cheaper to build and about as cheap to operate over the long haul.

Aleforge said:

Would you guys say noise is an issue with propane? I know when I'm blasting my kettle it sounds like a Fighter Jet is stuck in my garage with me.

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Depends on what kind of burner you have. The ones I have are loud, too, but not all of them are.

llazy_llama said:

To the cons list for electric, I would add that it's a PITA if you're using coolers. How many "OMFG the heating element melted my cooler!" threads have we had around here?

Other than that, good write up, my young Pro Vs. Con Padawan.

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FWIW, I use electic in coolers and have never had a problem. I actually think there is a PRO to coolers, they are more efficient at retaining heat. Which when you consider the low BTU output of electric elements in comparison with propane or NG, makes them attractive when dealing with electricity.

I have never read a post about an element melting a cooler, except where the brewer ran the element dry, which also ruins the element. The element melts and ruins the cooler. I dont know many people running electricity in coolers, except myself and those on HBT that have been building my rig for themselves.

This wont happen unless the system is ignored and something goes wrong.

If you have 20-30 GALLON kettles, you will DEFINATLY need 240VAC, there is no 110VAC setup that will provide enough Watts/BTUs to heat that volume.

I missed the 20-30 gal bit. I'd definately lean toward propane then. It would be much easier to build. Big burners are easy to find and easily put out enough BTUs for that. Having everything in 220V would be a PITA IMO.

Yeah, for a 20-30 gallon boil kettle, youd want at least (2) 5500W elements. That equates to 46A draw. So you are looking at a 60A 240VAC circuit to run the BK really.

You are better off with gas, A LOT of gas BTW. If you have natural gas at your home, Id pull it from there. Otherwise you are going to be filling up little 20lb tanks quite often if you are filling those kettles.

A high density, 2000w heatstick will melt spots in a cooler, trust me.

You can't just leave the stick in a cooler, you have to move it around.

I still use hybrid heat. I use the heatstick and propane burner to get the boil going, then turn off the burner and keep a rolling boil going with the heatstick alone.

Cpt_Kirks said:

A high density, 2000w heatstick will melt spots in a cooler, trust me.

You can't just leave the stick in a cooler, you have to move it around.

I still use hybrid heat. I use the heatstick and propane burner to get the boil going, then turn off the burner and keep a rolling boil going with the heatstick alone.

Click to expand...

Or you can mount it in the cooler so that it is not too close to the plastic. Mine is mounted in the bottom and I have never had a single issue with this.

What element (240v) would I need to boil a 15 gal keggle?

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

What element (240v) would I need to boil a 15 gal keggle?

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Well, ONE 5500W element will do it. May be better off with a couple 4500W elements though.

The Pol said:

If you have 20-30 GALLON kettles, you will DEFINATLY need 240VAC, there is no 110VAC setup that will provide enough Watts/BTUs to heat that volume.

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Guess I'll need to check the feasibility of getting 240 into the garage. My cousin is an electrician and loves beer. Installation would just be a matter of material costs.

(240 would also present some interesting options for power tools!)

Cpt_Kirks said:

I still use hybrid heat. I use the heatstick and propane burner to get the boil going, then turn off the burner and keep a rolling boil going with the heatstick alone.

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Interesting approach Cptn, using both propane and electric. What size is your brew kettle? Do you use a 240v heater?

I'm wondering if I use the hybrid method, can I get away with a 110v heater to keep the boil rolling?

The Pol said:

Well, ONE 5500W element will do it. May be better off with a couple 4500W elements though.

Click to expand...

Like This one? $25 including shipping? Please say yes!

Hey Deathweed, thought I'd modify the Pro/con list a little with my experience with electric. I agree with your propane analysis, I brewed on propane for 1.5 years before switching to electric.


Propane Pros:
-Cheaper to build
-Portable
-Open flames are always cool

Cons:
-Realizing you are out of propane before a brew day
-Keeping multiple propane tanks on hand
-ventilation if brewing indoors
-Cost of propane adds up over time

Electric Pros:
-Can automate
-Cheaper brewday (I think I say it cost about $1 in electricity for a brewday)
--This is what I've found, even with 10 gallon batches
-Don't need extensive ventilation
-can brew indoors more readily
--I hated running out of propane during a brew so almost always having the power to brew was a big plus for me

Cons:
-finding power source if you want to go 220V
-not as portable
--I have mine all set up to use a dryer outlet, any house I go to that has an electric dryer will allow me to brew. Still not as portable as propane, but a little more so with this addition.
-more complex=more things can go wrong
-Must make sure elements are covered at all times or it can be bad.
--Using Ultra low watt density elements you can dry fire them, I don't recommend this though.


I had plans to go natural gas in the basement but after some thought and talking with my wife I decided to spend the extra cash to go electric. I was going to be as safe as possible but I think there is more risk with an open flame than with an electric rig-with grounding and GFCI protection.

My HLT is a keg (I transfer to mash in the cooler) so I have not melted anything of course. I think most of the people that melt their coolers are using a heatstick.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Like This one? $25 including shipping? Please say yes!

Click to expand...

I prefer ULWD elements in sugary wort. Some say scorching doesnt exist. I got my 5500W ULWD element at True Value Hardware for like $18.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Like This one? $25 including shipping? Please say yes!

Click to expand...

I think several people have bought this one

Camco 2963 5500W 240V Ripp Element - Plumbing & Heating - Plumbing Appliances & Accessories - Water Heater Repair

Works wonderfully for me.

conpewter said:

I think several people have bought this one

Camco 2963 5500W 240V Ripp Element - Plumbing & Heating - Plumbing Appliances & Accessories - Water Heater Repair

Works wonderfully for me.

Click to expand...

Thanks! I have a new project!

I have mine all set up to use a dryer outlet, any house I go to that has an electric dryer will allow me to brew. Still not as portable as propane, but a little more so with this addition.


Would it be easier to just use the appropriate breaker and run a new line out to your normal brewing area? Or so you run a long ass cord through your house (or brew in the laundry room)?

And can you have that type of voltage by code in housing "outside".

Thanks

I have never seen a regular dryer outlet on a GFCI circuit.

I boil 46 liters batch (~50 liters pre-boil) with a single 4500W element. I use an additional 3000W to accelerate the time it take to reach boil (~40 minutes with 4500W while 16 minutes with 3000W + 4500W) from ~60°C.

One aspect that wasn't mentioned is the noise. A good friend of mine have a SABCO rew magic (gas powered) and when he recently visit for a split batch, he was amazed that my electric RIG produce about no noise. When I don't run an exhaust fan, you couldn't tell I'm brewing... well, there's the odor...

+1 electric brewing is absolutely silent.

If you have a cousin that is an electrician then running 240V to your garage is NO problem. I am an amature DIY guy and with a little research I easily ran 240V GFCI circuit to my garage. Even wiring up all my PID's, heating elements and pumps was a day in the park.

Last time I calculated how much money I was spending on my heating elements it came to ~$0.75/5 gallon batch! This is WAY cheaper than propane for sure! I also enjoy my electric setup because I can hit my temperatures dead on and there is a lot of set it and forget it I can do.

I'm not sure how difficult it would be with 30 gallon batches but if your cousin is an electrician I'm sure he could help you rig up something that controls 3 4500W elements on a 60 Amp circuit. Actually now that I think about it you could have 3 elements independently operated so that you could switch them on and off at will. If you put these at different hieghts in your BK then you could easily do 10, 20 or 30 gallons batches.... Anyways before I drag this on further I'll get your response.

On the cost factor; according to my numbers, it cost me $0.51cad to boil with a 4500W element for 90 minutes. It would cost $0.84 with 7500W (3000W + 4500W). Make you wonder... We're known to pay too little for electricity here in Québec.

Aleforge said:

I have mine all set up to use a dryer outlet, any house I go to that has an electric dryer will allow me to brew. Still not as portable as propane, but a little more so with this addition.


Would it be easier to just use the appropriate breaker and run a new line out to your normal brewing area? Or so you run a long ass cord through your house (or brew in the laundry room)?

And can you have that type of voltage by code in housing "outside".

Thanks

Click to expand...

The Pol said:

I have never seen a regular dryer outlet on a GFCI circuit.

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The cord I bought was a 15' cord that has an inline GFCI, it is a very beefy cord. Kal bought one as well.

I have a brewery that happens to also have a washer and dryer in it Luckily the room is actually fairly large, has the electric panel at one end, the brewery at the other and I can plug my controller in to the 30 amp dryer outlet I wired in (my dryer is actually gas).

If I were to pull the two kettles to make it portable I'd either need to be close to an outlet or buy a long 8 gauge extension cord that I'd rewire with the appropriate plugs.


Edit: For true portability I have an extra keg that I will probably put a spigot on, get a large enough bag to do BIAB and take a propane burner along. I don't think you can get an easier AG portable setup than that.

I plan on splitting my dryer breaker into a second outlet in my garage and put a GFCI Outlet on it to plug my HLT into once I get around to building one instead of a GFCI Breaker in the box. This is the same functionally right?
Where did Lazylamma get his $180 heating element pricing from????

IrregularPulse said:

I plan on splitting my dryer breaker into a second outlet in my garage and put a GFCI Outlet on it to plug my HLT into once I get around to building one instead of a GFCI Breaker in the box. This is the same functionally right?
Where did Lazylamma get his $180 heating element pricing from????

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He may be referring to PID control and install of it?

IrregularPulse said:

I plan on splitting my dryer breaker into a second outlet in my garage and put a GFCI Outlet on it to plug my HLT into once I get around to building one instead of a GFCI Breaker in the box. This is the same functionally right?
Where did Lazylamma get his $180 heating element pricing from????

Click to expand...

They don't seem to make GFCI outlets above 20 amps. You'll probably need a GFCI breaker or an inline GFCI for a 30 amp plug (or 50 amp if you are using an electric range outlet)


Edited for clarity and fixing wordzz

conpewter said:

They don't seem to make GFCI breakers above 20 amps. You'll probably need a GFCI breaker or an inline GFCI for a 30 amp plug (or 50 amp if you are using an electric range outlet)

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They definately make GFCI breakers larger than 20A... 50A and 60A too.

The Pol said:

They definitely make GFCI breakers larger than 20A... 50A and 60A too.

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Sorry meant outlets. Edited that post.

IrregularPulse said:

I plan on splitting my dryer breaker into a second outlet in my garage and put a GFCI Outlet on it to plug my HLT into once I get around to building one instead of a GFCI Breaker in the box. This is the same functionally right?
Where did Lazylamma get his $180 heating element pricing from????

Click to expand...

What happens if someone tries to run the dryer at the same time?

IrregularPulse said:

Where did Lazylamma get his $180 heating element pricing from????

Click to expand...

Electric Brew Heater w/15" Element :: Midwest Supplies Homebrewing and Winemaking Supplies

$180

2200W for $180... OMG

If you can change a heating element in a water heater, you can build a brew system with them. $18 from True Value.

Does anyone know how then formulas for calculating the BTUs required to attain and/or maintain a boil for a given HLT or MLT capacity?

I'd be happier to keep everything at 110 if possible. The hybrid propane/electric method mentioned earlier is interesting.

The Pol said:

Or you can mount it in the cooler so that it is not too close to the plastic. Mine is mounted in the bottom and I have never had a single issue with this.

Click to expand...

You're using low density 240V elements, too, aren't you? They are cooler to the touch, I think.

Yeah, the tip of the element was sitting against the plastic. It did not melt through, but it did melt some dimples. I won't do that again. Funny thing is, the beer came out tasting fine.