A Rant About Online Homebrew Supply Shops

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amrmedic

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Ok, this is a rant to get this off my chest. Not aimed or about any one in particular supplier/retailer.

I am frustrated. There are many internet based homebrew supply shops. In my area, I do not have a convenient LHBS (the closest one is over an hours drive 1 way). So I do most of my shopping on the internet.

What I find frustrating is the fact there is not one supplier who carries everything. I frequently find myself have to go to multiple sites in the hope of finding everything I need in one place. But this is rare. I find myself having to order from several stores. And when I do find what I want, it is often out of stock.

The reason I want everything in one place is due to the exorbitant shipping fees. One retailer wanted to charge me 15 dollars to mail me my order which consisted of 2 small brass fittings and a pound of flaked barley. This might have weighed 1.5 pounds. USPS has flat rate shipping of like $5 for priority mail. And yes, this order would easily fit in the box. Another site was charging me $75 to ship a kettle! Sometimes I feel we get gouged on prices due to the limited suppliers of hobby.

Now, many of you would reply "Well if your unhappy, then start your own store". I am looking into it, but I want to have a retail and internet store and it takes time and money, which I am working on.

Another comment may be that a store can not have everything or manufactures may have shortages like Blichmann does now. I understand those shortages.

I plan to create a Super Wal-Mart of homebrew shops. One stop shopping. This will take money and time. One of the things I feel is important is to have a customer feedback and since I can not think of everything a brewer may want, have a system for brewers to make special requests or give input on what I carry.

Sorry for the long winded rant, but its frustrating.
 
I wish some of the online guys were down the street from me. Let me know when you open up your online discount supply shop and I would be happy to give it a try.
 
You will never find a shop that has everything and everything in stock. Ever.

For shipping, some places have flat rate shipping for most items except heavy/bulk items which are charged actual shipping costs. Northern Brewer comes to mind. So does MoreBeer.

Mail order companies often use only one shipping company and it's generally not the US mail service. Adding a second or third option is not efficient and USPS is expensive on heavy items. With UPS or FedEx, you get an actual tracking number that's updated daily, not a confirmation number when it's finally arrived. You are also covered for insurance up to $100 at no additional charge. None of that you will get for $5 small flat rate box shipping with USPS.

Opening your own store will give you a hard lesson teaching you it's impossible to please everyone every time.
 
Isn't there a homebrew shop in Tampa? I know there is a big homebrew club there, too.

As far as online ordering, plan out your brews in advance, buy in bulk, and have a backup for any crucial equipment. That way, you can order incrementally every few months from different stores, completing your inventory that way.
 
My only big issue is the shipping. Sometimes I will only need 5lbs of grain and somehow shipping is 11 bucks... Thats anoying... Even though its flat rate shipping it's still good if you order a lot of stuff but as for me I only order small orders because of money issues.
 
I know you can not have everything and please everyone all the time. I even said that in my post. Thats why it would be great for suppliers to have a system to allow for requests. Maybe if enough people want something, they can stock it.

I have run my own business before and know the ups and downs.

Yes there is a homebrew store in Tampa, however I live over an hour away, and driving to Tampa and dealing with the traffic is awful.

I think the shipping costs are the biggest sore spot. And using more than one carrier and having options is not hard or difficult. You can get a tracking number from USPS and the flat rate priority mail is great and cheap. Its awful when shipping is more than the total cost of the order.

The downside to using internet suppliers is being able to go to the shop and talk "shop" and ask questions. HBT is my substitute for that though.

This is just a rant to get this off my chest.

I see other people feel somewhat similar about the shipping costs.
 
My closest LHBS is at least 45 minutes, and the somewhat better one is over an hour. I rarely order stuff online. In fact, I'm so stupid if I would like to brew on the weekend, I could order something on Wed. and have it delivered to my door for less than the gas money it would take to drive there and back. But I rarely do this. I enjoy going to the LHBS and looking around and BSing with the store people.

Let's assume your car gets 25 MPG. And your LHBS is 1 hour away. That's 2 hours round trip. At 60 MPH that's 120 Miles.

Divide 120 miles by 25 miles per gallon and get 4.8 gallons of gas. Multiply by the price of gas (let's say $3.50/gallon) and it would cost $16 just to drive to the store and back. When most places online have $7 and $8 dollars shipping, that's VERY good deal. Even higher rates than that can make it worth it in not just gas, but time savings as well.
 
A few excerpts from previous posts:

"I think the shipping costs are the biggest sore spot."

"Divide 120 miles by 25 miles per gallon and get 4.8 gallons of gas. Multiply by the price of gas (let's say $3.50/gallon) and it would cost $16 just to drive to the store and back. When most places online have $7 and $8 dollars shipping, that's VERY good deal. Even higher rates than that can make it worth it in not just gas, but time savings as well."

Excellent points, both. Shipping rates have escalated dramatically in the past 10 years; this is reality. Handling is handling, and there are fixed costs to getting out an order. That cost does diminish as a percentage of the total as the order size increases. I have a half-hour drive to the only place that has some homebrew supplies in our area, and that will consume a gallon of $3.67 gas each way. Even for a small order, a flate rate of $6-7 makes sense to me.

I do try my best to come up with orders for 4-5 batches at once (about what will account for a 50 lb. bag of 2-row). Right now, I'm looking for some way to reduce the price of that big bag of malt locally.....but so far, no good. My last order was with Northern Brewer, which was a good deal, but as was stated in an earlier post, they won't cover a big bag of malt with that flat rate shipping.

My personal view of the OP is that it will be difficult or impossible to cut into the current shipping charges much. As for $75 to ship a brew kettle.....well, that sounds like eBay shipping to me. ;)
 
I feel your pain!!! I am in the same boat.

I had to make a run this weekend, like you it's an hour one way, and I drive a diesel truck. 180 miles at about 17mpg @$3.75/gal.


$75 seems very steep to ship a kettle. I actually got my kit shipped free because I ordered >$100 from a supplier.
 
Ok, this is a rant to get this off my chest. Not aimed or about any one in particular supplier/retailer.

I am frustrated. There are many internet based homebrew supply shops. In my area, I do not have a convenient LHBS (the closest one is over an hours drive 1 way). So I do most of my shopping on the internet.

What I find frustrating is the fact there is not one supplier who carries everything. I frequently find myself have to go to multiple sites in the hope of finding everything I need in one place. But this is rare. I find myself having to order from several stores. And when I do find what I want, it is often out of stock.

The reason I want everything in one place is due to the exorbitant shipping fees. One retailer wanted to charge me 15 dollars to mail me my order which consisted of 2 small brass fittings and a pound of flaked barley. This might have weighed 1.5 pounds. USPS has flat rate shipping of like $5 for priority mail. And yes, this order would easily fit in the box. Another site was charging me $75 to ship a kettle! Sometimes I feel we get gouged on prices due to the limited suppliers of hobby.

Now, many of you would reply "Well if your unhappy, then start your own store". I am looking into it, but I want to have a retail and internet store and it takes time and money, which I am working on.

Another comment may be that a store can not have everything or manufactures may have shortages like Blichmann does now. I understand those shortages.

I plan to create a Super Wal-Mart of homebrew shops. One stop shopping. This will take money and time. One of the things I feel is important is to have a customer feedback and since I can not think of everything a brewer may want, have a system for brewers to make special requests or give input on what I carry.

Sorry for the long winded rant, but its frustrating.

I look forward to your best attempt of outdoing the current options out there. There's always room for a better store out there. Of course you realize that running a super walmart of xyz takes a billion dollar company's worth of logistics to stay profitable. Now, I know it's not anywhere near the same scale because the total number of items would be 100 times fewer, but it would be someone's full time job to source materials and track inventory, and place orders (or adjust standing order quantities based on demand).

If you always want things to be in stock, you have to carry more stock. If your estimate of demand is off, you end up hitting expiration dates and have to throw it away. Doing that causes your costs to go up and therefore your pricing has to adjust. Next thing you know, someone on the internet is complaining that your prices are too high.

Maybe you understand all of this but my armchair quarterback detector is on 11.
 
I know you can not have everything and please everyone all the time. I even said that in my post. Thats why it would be great for suppliers to have a system to allow for requests. Maybe if enough people want something, they can stock it.

This is exactly what we do. When enough people request a product we carry it. We also special order products for customers that are willing to wait for a non stock product. You can request products by posting in our main thread, on facebook or through our contact us form.

We have doubled the number of products that we carry since we have been open. Many of them were from requests from customers. I did a special order today for a new 3 gallon ball lock keg for a customer that asked for it in our main thread.

Thanks,

Ed
 
That's cool Ed, didn't know you could do that. To respond to the OP, I find that a lot of things involved with homebrewing (aside from ingredients) are normally oddities or specialty items that you can hardly find anywhere else online anyway. I know my LHBS doesn't carry 90% of what's sold online just because there's a limited market for most of it. For example, I don't expect every homebrew store (online or otherwise) to carry cartridge filters. I'm pretty sure the only reason Midwest even had them in stock to begin with was because they also have a hydroponics store which sells them to filter water. Also, a lot of things you can buy from hardware stores, so you might want to try looking at HD or Lowes.
 
The thing that kills me is the pricing disparity I find on the cheaper consumable items. I found belgian corks at a great price through St. Pats in Texas. I needed more cages though and though their cork prices were rock bottom they were already out of cages. So I shopped around. I like ordering from BMW but they don't have cages, Austin Homebrew has some of the highest prices on cages at almost $0.25 each. Northern Brewer is cheaper and Midwest Cheaper yet. Morebeer has the lowest price by far at $0.10. I was going to just order 1000 and pay $0.065 each but they were out of stock (and wouldn't give me the 1000 pc price for ordering 10 lots of 100).
 
I can only brew in some weekends throughout the year, but when I do have that brewing weekend available, I brew 2-4 batches in 2-3 days! So, since I tend to order a bunch of stuff at the same time, I always go over the exercise of checking stocks and prices of what I want in 2-3 major online stores plus my LHBS, which is half hour away, for comparison. My LHBS is nice but they do charge a handling fee for preparing large amounts of ingredients, so the online guys usually have a better deal at the end of the day.

Actually, the last couple of times I have gone through the exercise, the same online store had the best deal overall. I think I will do the exercise just one more time, if they came back as the best option again, I will just stick with them from all batches for now on and save me some time...
 
I am actually in the process of opening an online homebrew supply store, and am having a very difficult time trying to find a shipper that will allow me to have a flat rate option but not lose most of my profit margin to shipping costs.

Shipping is damn expensive, particularly on homebrewing items. Grain, extract, carboys, etc. are all heavy items, and they're simply not cheap to ship. Offering flat rate shipping rates eats into a company's profit margins, which in turn bump up the final cost to the consumer.
 
I have studied economics and business. I know that having everything everyone wants at the right time and in stock all the time is a fallacy. But it is frustrating when the shipping is more than the order. Also, some sites have high prices compared to others so sometimes you are forced to pay higher prices in order to get everything from one place, in order to minimize the shipping.

Most stores do not advertise that they will special order or take requests, thats great to know you do. I use Brewmasters Warehouse frequently, I will probably be contacting you for some special orders.

Having different shipping options would be best. Offer USPS flat rate, it doesnt cost you anything. And its cheaper than Fed Ex and UPS.
 
The tricky bit is having to build a shipping size attribute into each item and then have it guess if what you've ordered allows for a small flat rate, etc. Sure, order 3 vials of yeast and it can hit the flat rate box. What about a racking cane? I'm not trying to bust your marbles. I run what I'd consider a specialty shop and even with the limited items I offer, having the shipping charges come out right is very difficult. Some things are small and heavy while others are bulky and light. You can make these decisions one by one but when order volume picks up, it's a nightmare. Granted, I use paypal's shopping cart and the calculation options are directly out of 1992.
 
This thread has been very revealing. I have never studied the technical aspects of running a business like this, but it's interesting to compare what the consumer demands with what the businesses do in response. It's also easy to miscalculate and do the wrong thing in response to consumer demand- such as overextend, stock too much / too varied inventory, etc. I can think of one startup company supplying homebrewers that has appeared on HBT for only three or four months. They have been trying very conscientiously to meet customer demands, but I'm far from certain that they will be successful.
 
Most stores do not advertise that they will special order or take requests, thats great to know you do. I use Brewmasters Warehouse frequently, I will probably be contacting you for some special orders.

Having different shipping options would be best. Offer USPS flat rate, it doesnt cost you anything. And its cheaper than Fed Ex and UPS.

I guess I really do not advertise that we do special orders but we certainly do them, especially for customers that order from us a lot. So let me know when your ready what you want and I will see what I can do for you.

As far as USPS Flat Rate the lowest price for flat rate is $5.00 for a small flat rate box. If you put in a small order and asked for USPS small flat rate box if possible then we would do that, and give you your $1.99 back. We ship USPS to Canada, Alaska, and/or Hawaii just about everyday so that is not really a big deal. Anything larger than the small USPS box costs more to ship than our flat rate shipping.

Ed
 
So let me know when your ready what you want and I will see what I can do for you.

Now how can we do that when there is no customer service from internet retailers. OOOPPPS sorry just looked at your site and others. Why they have a button that says contact us. Huh when did that happen ? email-phone# even address. Dang technology always amazes me. :)
 
Well, I have asked other retailers online for special orders or help in getting certain products and have been brushed off as a nuisance. So before you make a smart comment and go negative, think of all possible explanations.

I started this thread as a means to express my frustration I have with online retailers and in a way, the lack of a convenient LHBS.

This hobby/addiction we have has a unique supply chain. Its not like you can walk into Wal Mart and pick up your brewing ingredients (though most of my brew gear does come from Home Depot lol). Also, the demand for our needs is limited, so there is not always going to be a LHBS that is convenient. So, we turn to this marvelous invention called the internet. I think we all have utilized an internet retailer at one time or the other. I frequently find myself having to go to all the major online retailers pricing what I need, including shipping to see where I can get the best deal. Shopping around when buying something is important, when making a large one time purchase, however I do not think that you would want to go to every grocery store chain every week to check the price of milk when you need it. You find a store that you like and you stick with it. Creating customer loyalty is a key aspect to a business' success. it is time consuming and at times frustrating when you find a store that has most of what you need or not in stock, but then having to go to a second store for the remainder of the stuff. Often times, I go back to my recipe to see if I can change it to get it one stop shopping. I find myself not having one retailer loyalty, yet.

However, as I write this, my recent purchases from Brewmasters just arrived.
 
I really like the LHBS in my area, the guys are very friendly and helpful. I'm glad to do business with them and help them out a little bit.
 
I get frustrated too by online retailers because I find it way too easy to keep adding stuff to my order to get free shipping. Wish I had the problem of not finding what I wanted.

Of all the hobbies I've been involved with I've found this one to have some pretty darn good e commerce options and I have found the shipping to be more than fair when I factor in the time it saves me.
 
This is exactly what we do. When enough people request a product we carry it. We also special order products for customers that are willing to wait for a non stock product. You can request products by posting in our main thread, on facebook or through our contact us form.

We have doubled the number of products that we carry since we have been open. Many of them were from requests from customers. I did a special order today for a new 3 gallon ball lock keg for a customer that asked for it in our main thread.

Thanks,

Ed

I am in the same boat as a lot of people in that my preferred LHBS (Brewmasters Warehouse) is about 1 hour away. However I have a friend that works in Atlanta and he doesn't mind stopping by and picking up my grocery list.
 
The problem I have with my local shop is the freshness. The hops are always old and the grains are just never fresh. So I am always shopping with usually NB or Brewmasters Warehouse. Between the 2 they almost always have what I need. ANd if not they will usually have it shortly. Both of them offer great flat rate shipping that is more then fair. Bottom line is we have a heavy hobby haha
 
Last weekend I was in St. Louis and i decided to check out a local HBS, St. Louis Beer and Wine Making. It was in a decent location and the store was very clean. I wanted to buy a Russian Imperial kit for my brother in law and the price was $60. UGH! I can understand some amount of mark-up by the LHBS but this is crazy. So I decided to check out a nearby mega liquor store and found the exact same kit for $42.

So here it is, if you are going to open brick-mortar store, don't think you can get away with absurd mark-up just for the sake of convenience for your customers. There are just too many other options out there.
 
It could be worse - you could be in China! I looked up a 1# can of invert syrup yesterday from an online retailer - once shipping rates and customs were inputted the cost was in excess of $70!
When I need specialty items over here, namely hops, I have had the items shipped to my parents in NJ, then they turn around and ship it over here, but it still isn't cheap. Shipping $20 worth of hops routinely costs close to $40 to ship to Beijing.
Since we just started brewing over here, we will be relying on trips home as well as visitors to ferry specialty supplies over to us.
On that note, if you happen to be visiting Beijing any time in the future please let me know and I'll give you a shopping list - then I'll buy you a noddle dinner and a beer for your troubles!
 
Heh, for the record, I ordered a TON of stuff from northern brewer once: march pump, three boilermakers, toptier, therminator, fermenting buckets. Basically an entire brewery setup (I was upgrading). Total shipping: $7.99. When they say flat-rate, they mean it. :p
 
I guess I really do not advertise that we do special orders but we certainly do them, especially for customers that order from us a lot. So let me know when your ready what you want and I will see what I can do for you.

...

Ed

Ed was great when I made an order a while back. I use a lot of gypsum due to my water chemistry and my penchant for IPAs. Ed cut me a deal on 2 lbs of Gypsum to last me a long time, instead of getting 32 1 oz orders or whatever. Very cool.
 
Not sure if anyone has pointed this out but there is a big LHBS shop in Pinellas Park called The Beer and Winmaker's Pantry. And if you don't mind making a trip across the bridge, I highly recommend Southern Homebrew and Winemaking Supply right off of 275 and Busch. Huge selection of specialty malts and the staff are incredible! They're even moving into a giant building not too far down the road.
 
Of all the hobbies I've been involved with I've found this one to have some pretty darn good e commerce options and I have found the shipping to be more than fair when I factor in the time it saves me.

I completely agree. Rebel Brewer is my LHBS yet I still find myself paying for shipping after factoring in the time and gas savings with a 40 mile round trip. Unless I've got a huge, heavy order, I'll gladly spend 10 bucks shipping to save 45 minutes of my time and 2 gallons of gas.
 
Well, I have asked other retailers online for special orders or help in getting certain products and have been brushed off as a nuisance. So before you make a smart comment and go negative, think of all possible explanations.

I started this thread as a means to express my frustration I have with online retailers and in a way, the lack of a convenient LHBS.

This hobby/addiction we have has a unique supply chain. Its not like you can walk into Wal Mart and pick up your brewing ingredients (though most of my brew gear does come from Home Depot lol). Also, the demand for our needs is limited, so there is not always going to be a LHBS that is convenient. So, we turn to this marvelous invention called the internet. I think we all have utilized an internet retailer at one time or the other. I frequently find myself having to go to all the major online retailers pricing what I need, including shipping to see where I can get the best deal. Shopping around when buying something is important, when making a large one time purchase, however I do not think that you would want to go to every grocery store chain every week to check the price of milk when you need it. You find a store that you like and you stick with it. Creating customer loyalty is a key aspect to a business' success. it is time consuming and at times frustrating when you find a store that has most of what you need or not in stock, but then having to go to a second store for the remainder of the stuff. Often times, I go back to my recipe to see if I can change it to get it one stop shopping. I find myself not having one retailer loyalty, yet.

However, as I write this, my recent purchases from Brewmasters just arrived.

Can you tell us which retailers you're specifically frustrated with? Because it seems like you're just using fly-by-night/less than great online retailers in the first place. Shipping from most retailers isn't that bad. Also you sorta sound like a USPS spokesperson.
 
Is homebrewing even legal over there? When are you guys going to protest and riot like all the Muslim countries and demand democracy? :D
Damned if I know if it is legal or not - they (The Man) tend to leave the foreign devils alone as long as we aren't stoking the fire of discontent.

Mike - You're welcome! The noodles are good here - and you can bring 2 50# pieces of luggage on the plane - that's a lot of hops...
 
Well, I use Northern Brewer, Rebel Brewer (who just got a huge order from me recently), MidWest, Austin, Hearts Homebrew, Brewmasters, Morebeer, Homebrewheaven, etc. Three of these retailers offer flate rate or free shipping.

I will give you an example of an item I am looking for. Pretty basic item, whole vanilla beans. Some homebrew shops carry them. Local grocery stores do not, unless I travel a distance to find a whole foods or specialty store, and then you pay like 10 dollars for them. When I order the ingredients for my next recipe, it would be nice to be able to get everything at one stop. Only one online retailer carries vanilla beans and they dont have flat rate shipping, so when I put together my recipe with shipping is was too expensive.

One other factor that plays in to where to shop is how an itme is sold. I found only a couple retailers offer exact amounts of grain, and rarely anyone sells hops in less than 1 oz increments. This is ok if you want extra that you can use in future recipes, but the item may go stale before then. So, if I need 12 oz black malt, I have to order a pound then weigh it out myself. Thats the nice thing about LHBS, you get exactly what you need.

At least most places will crush your grain (except for a 55lb bag) for free.

I actually picked out an all grain recipe for a RIS, and priced it out, including shipping, at the major online retailers. There was about a 12 dollar difference between the cheapest and most expensive, with Brewmasters warehouse cheapest and Mid-West being the most expensive. The widest selection of grains was found at Rebel Brewer, and they did offer the grains most often used in quantities less than a pound, at a price/ounce. The had the lowest price for the recipe, but ended up in the middle of the range due to shipping.

Food for thought.
 
http://www.beanilla.com ships beans via USPS my last order was $12 including shipping. I got 10 Madagascar Vanilla beans for $8.99 and $3 shipping for a total of $12.32 thats a crapload of beans

-=Jason=-
 
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