How to connect spa panel to full breaker box?

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bigljd

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Below is a pic of my breaker box - obviously there is not room for adding another breaker. Is there some way to connect a spa panel directly to this breaker panel?

In a previous thread I talked about running an extension cable from the laundry room (dryer outlet) to my brew shed. I realized that if I could tie the spa panel straight into the breaker panel and plug a 10/4 cable into the spa panel, it would greatly reduce the length of extension cable required to reach the brew shed. When not in use, the 10/4 cable would be rolled up and the spa panel breaker would be turned off.

This is something I'd have an electrician do (if it's possible to do). I'm reasonably knowledgeable when it comes to smaller electrical projects, but have little experience with 240v and home wiring projects. I'm not comfortable poking around in breaker panels, even with the main breaker off.


My full breaker box
10232011124.jpg


Utility room where breaker box lives, and my brew shed in the background.
10232011125.jpg
 
I just hooked up a hot tub extension where I had the same problem, no breaker room.

I pulled the front panel (around the breakers) off. I was able to hook the wires to the backplane underneath the lowest breaker.

Be sure to run the correct size wire for the breaker that you are going to use. A spa breaker is 50A GFCI and requires 6 AWG wire.
 
Just curious. Have you ever pulled the front cover off the panel? You might be surprised to find that not all breakers aren't live (i.e. wired up to a house circuit). I had a similar deal and was able to move some things around to make room for a 50A double-breaker.
 
Just curious. Have you ever pulled the front cover off the panel? You might be surprised to find that not all breakers aren't live (i.e. wired up to a house circuit). I had a similar deal and was able to move some things around to make room for a 50A double-breaker.

I haven't pulled the cover off - I assumed all the breakers are in use since all of them are marked as being used on the back of the panel door. I'll have to take a peak behind the panel cover when I'm home to see if all the breakers are wired up, but for now I'm thinking they are all being used.
 
Only way to be sure is to pull the cover (or start flipping breakers and see if one fails to turn off anything obvious). I think I'd vote for option #1.

When popped the cover on my panel nearly 30% of "ON" breakers were unwired. Basically the previous owner must have decided it was cheaper to install breakers than blanks. . . go figure. The 50A I used was basically a freebie. . . Lucky me I guess.
 
I just hooked up a hot tub extension where I had the same problem, no breaker room.

I pulled the front panel (around the breakers) off. I was able to hook the wires to the backplane underneath the lowest breaker.

Be sure to run the correct size wire for the breaker that you are going to use. A spa breaker is 50A GFCI and requires 6 AWG wire.

Not to be a downer or anything, but this is a VERY bad idea. Not only are you overloading your breaker panel but you are also risking your life and property

If there is a fault in your line to your spa panel you have NO protection what so ever and the panel will feed the fault endlessly
and if your house burns down the insurance company WILL NOT pay the claim
 
Here's a naked view of the panel, with all her private parts on display. She's definitely in full use.

Panel_view.JPG


The 5 lower breakers on the right are all 15 amp, so it sounds promising that I could swap out 4 of those for the 2 tandem 15 amp breakers, and then throw in a 50 amp 240 breaker at the bottom. I forgot/didn't know that the tandem breakers existed.

I think this is a viable solution on how to power my electric brewery (unless someone jumps in and tells me otherwise). I've already put together a parts list for a control panel (based on a PJ design), so now I have some incentive to start building it.

Thanks for the input!
 
Not to be a downer or anything, but this is a VERY bad idea. Not only are you overloading your breaker panel but you are also risking your life and property

If there is a fault in your line to your spa panel you have NO protection what so ever and the panel will feed the fault endlessly
and if your house burns down the insurance company WILL NOT pay the claim

No so. The backplane that I hooked up to is on the protected side of the panels master breaker.
 
redman67 said:
Yea my bad, 200 amps is nothing dont worry about it

It's called a tap and is fine if done properly. There is not enough info to know if that is the case here.

Edit...btw, I would go the tandem route as suggested above.
 
Personally If I where you, I'd hire an electrician to upgrade your service to a 200amp service. I have a 1100sf house too,and had mine upgraded before I moved in. $120 for the permit, and $1350 for the electrician. Money well spent if you ask me.

With all the energy hungry stuff in a modern house hold, you might have trouble brewing if someone is in the kitchen cooking and doing laundry...and watching TV with 150amp service. Also then you can have the electrician hook up the spa panel where you want it.
 
OK, so I’ve been thinking about this, and I think it may be simpler to skip the spa panel and just add a 30 amp 2 pole GFCI to the breaker panel and wire the 10/4 cable directly to the breaker. I know the GFCI breakers are pricy, but if I have to buy a 50 amp 2 pole breaker and run 6AWG wire to the spa panel, the 30 amp GFCI breaker solution with no spa panel would cost about the same, I think.

Here’s the GFCI breaker I’ve been looking at – let me know if this would not work for my plan.
http://www.mrsupply.com/murray-circuit-breaker-mp230gf-brand-new.html

So here’s a repost of the breaker box picture, with my plan below it (assuming I decide to tackle this project on my own.)

Panel_view.JPG


STEP 1: Turn off the main breaker and remove the panel cover

STEP 2: Test the breakers with a multi-meter to make sure there is no juice flowing thru the lower panel

STEP 3: Replace 4 of the 15 amp breakers with 2 of the tandem breakers linked in post 7 to make room in the panel for the GFCI breaker

STEP 4: Install the 2 pole 30 amp GFCI breaker. Connect the GFCI pigtail to the neutral/ground bar.

STEP 5: Knock out one of the bottom breaker panel knockouts. Cut a 4 prong dryer receptacle sized hole in the drywall next to a stud about 6” beneath the breaker panel. Feed 10/4 cable thru the drywall hole and into the panel. Secure the cable with a NM clamp. The cable I’m looking at using is linked here (yes, it’s expensive):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/75-SOOW-10-...aultDomain_0&hash=item2a12abd752#ht_699wt_952

STEP 6: Inside the breaker box, remove the 10/4 cable sleeving up to the clamp. Wire the cable’s 2 hot leads and 1 neutral lead to the GFCI breaker. Wire the cable’s ground wire to the neutral/ground bar.

STEP 7: Below the breaker box, cut the 10/4 cable long enough to run thru a gang box and wire it to a 4 prong dryer receptacle mounted beneath the breaker panel. Wire the remaining cable to a 4 prong dryer plug. The cable will be unrolled out to the brew shed for a brew session, and plugged into the brewery control panel with a locking plug.

Is there anything in my steps that looks wrong/stupid? I feel confident that I can do this, but I want to make sure it’s to code and safe. If either criteria are not being met I won’t do it. I’m not going to build my control panel until I’m certain I have a safe way to power it up.

Thanks in advance for your input.
 
Looks pretty good. For step 5 you may want to consider a surface mount receptacle. It will be easier than cutting in a recessed box. Also some 10/3 NM cable will be easier to work with between the panel and the receptacle.
 
I see 2 220v breakers on the top, why not piggy back to one of them? I would think one is for the kitchen stove & one for the dryer. As long as the appliance isnt in use while you brew you should be OK. Run the 10/3 out to the shed and connect it in a sub panel for a shut off switch.When you brew just throw the switch. Bury the cable in pvc conduit to protect it & your done. Just my 2 cents ,ask an electrician. good luck cheers;)
 
I see 2 220v breakers on the top, why not piggy back to one of them? I would think one is for the kitchen stove & one for the dryer. As long as the appliance isnt in use while you brew you should be OK. Run the 10/3 out to the shed and connect it in a sub panel for a shut off switch.When you brew just throw the switch. Bury the cable in pvc conduit to protect it & your done. Just my 2 cents ,ask an electrician. good luck cheers;)

I had thought of that, but can pretty much guarantee it's not to code. There's actually 3 220 breakers in there now, a 25 amp for the A/C, a 30 amp for the dryer, and a 50 amp for the stove. The problem is I brew on Saturdays when the wife is home and during the summer the A/C will likely be on, she'll be doing laundry and probably have something cooking on the stove.
I know there are shortcuts that can be taken to save some $$, but I'm looking to learn how to do this the correct way and as safely as possible.

Thanks for the thought though. :mug:
 
Looks pretty good. For step 5 you may want to consider a surface mount receptacle. It will be easier than cutting in a recessed box. Also some 10/3 NM cable will be easier to work with between the panel and the receptacle.

Good idea on the surface mount receptacle.
Is 10/3 NM basically Romex, and does it have a ground? Can I get shorter lengths at HD or Blowes?

Thanks
 
I originally looked at a similar option (i.e. long cord with receptacle), but I'm pretty sure the wife would have hated the giant cord hanging under the breaker panel.

What about the following?

1. Run #6 THHN wire to run from the GFI breaker to your gang box. Pretty cheap at $1.30/ft at HD.

2. Mount one of these receptacles on your gang box: (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

3. Use an RV extension cord like this to your control box:
http://www.elecordset.com/moreinfo.aspx?pid=QREX046047638130&cs=/default.aspx&ai=M

Just a thought. . . and might save you some dough.
 
bigljd said:
Good idea on the surface mount receptacle.
Is 10/3 NM basically Romex, and does it have a ground? Can I get shorter lengths at HD or Blowes?

Thanks

Yes romex and it should have a ground. I believe you can buy it by the foot at most stores.
 
I originally looked at a similar option (i.e. long cord with receptacle), but I'm pretty sure the wife would have hated the giant cord hanging under the breaker panel.

What about the following?

1. Run #6 THHN wire to run from the GFI breaker to your gang box. Pretty cheap at $1.30/ft at HD.

2. Mount one of these receptacles on your gang box: (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

3. Use an RV extension cord like this to your control box:
http://www.elecordset.com/moreinfo.aspx?pid=QREX046047638130&cs=/default.aspx&ai=M

Just a thought. . . and might save you some dough.


That's a pretty good deal on the RV cord, except 50' won't make it to the shed. I need 75', and I couldn't find any longer rv cords on google that were cheaper than the 75' 10/4 cable on Ebay.
I could build a rolling brew stand that I could roll up to the patio so I wouldn't need so much cable, but I like to brew in my brew shed/man cave. It gets me out of the house and my shed protects me from the rain and cold weather. Wish I had a friggin garage, but I don't.
 
Bummer. 75' is pretty long run and it's one huge coil of cable in 10/3. If it were me, I'd consider BOBrob's suggestion to dig a trench out to your brewshed, and bury a cable in conduit. Assuming you don't already have power in your brewshed, why not run 50A (6/4) to your shed in conduit, and then mount a subpanel in the shed with breakers for 220 and 110V. That way you could brew with 220 and have 110 available for lights and other fun toys. 50A also opens up the possibility of having a welding rig . . .
 
Bummer. 75' is pretty long run and it's one huge coil of cable in 10/3. If it were me, I'd consider BOBrob's suggestion to dig a trench out to your brewshed, and bury a cable in conduit. Assuming you don't already have power in your brewshed, why not run 50A (6/4) to your shed in conduit, and then mount a subpanel in the shed with breakers for 220 and 110V. That way you could brew with 220 and have 110 available for lights and other fun toys. 50A also opens up the possibility of having a welding rig . . .

Buring the feed is a good idea. That is what I did to up the feed to my garage. And a bigger feed is usually not a bad idea either. I ran 100A. You can get direct bury cable also. I have used UF cable (like romex but rated for underground) up to #6. For my feed, I used direct bury aluminum cable because it is much cheaper than copper. The aluminum is either UD or USE. I used UD (single conductors) and ran an insulated copper #6 for the ground.
 
Yup code I wasnt sure how you feel. Still rather than messing with the panel in the house just bury the cable, connect to a sub panel in the shed 220 &110 V and have an electrician connect to the Main below the meter. That way you are up to code and good to go. Hauling out that much cable is work. I also see this fishing pole in the photo, go fishen and drink about it. Cheers;)
 
I also see this fishing pole in the photo, go fishen and drink about it. Cheers;)

Spoken like a true yooper, eh? I'm a former Michigander myself (not a yooper, but born and raised for 30ish years in the Grand Rapids area), so I'm enjoying getting advice from 2 different yoopers.

I've thought about burying cable out to the shed, and may still do it, but there is a possibility we may have to move in the next year. Since I'm not sure if we are staying or not, I've been trying to set things up to be portable so if we move I can pull everything out and take it with me.

I did do some searching on the UF cable, and it turns out it's cheaper than the cable I was looking at, so I may use that as my 'extension cable' for now and if we plan to stay I can just bury it and hard wire it to the panel. I know it will be a pain in the arse to unroll all that cable, but I'm OK with doing it for now.
I don't expect to need more than 30 amps in the shed - it's only 10x12 and it works well for a brew shed but it's not really big enough for a workshop since I have all my lawn and garden stuff jammed in there too.

If I do bury the cable later on, how deep does it need to go? The ground here is rock hard red clay with rocks the size of bowling balls randomly scattered underground.
Also, the ground under the shed floods to about 12" deep with water during a storm (the shed is on 12" piers). It's in a small gully. Is there a problem with the UF cable coming up thru the water and into the shed?

Thanks again!
 
Holy @#$@#

I see people complaining about sketchy electrical advice being throw around HBT and I didn't believe them until now.

What you want to do is consolidate four of the existing breakers into two duplex breakers which will free up two full positions for a 240v breaker.

image.php



Then run that out to the shed and put the spa panel out there.

I wouldn't trust my advice on this either.
 
Holy @#$@#

I see people complaining about sketchy electrical advice being throw around HBT and I didn't believe them until now.

What you want to do is consolidate four of the existing breakers into two duplex breakers which will free up two full positions for a 240v breaker.

image.php



Then run that out to the shed and put the spa panel out there.

I wouldn't trust my advice on this either.

Yup, that is roughly what my plan is, except I'll use a 30 amp GFCI breaker in the main panel and skip the spa panel.

I'm going to start assembling parts for a control panel next week, and when I've made some progress I'll start a thread to show my work. When I get the controller built and need to run power out to the shed I'll come back and update this thread.

Thanks for the help I've gotten from everyone, especially the diagrams from PJ that inspired me to start this project. :mug:
 
If I do bury the cable later on, how deep does it need to go? The ground here is rock hard red clay with rocks the size of bowling balls randomly scattered underground.
Also, the ground under the shed floods to about 12" deep with water during a storm (the shed is on 12" piers). It's in a small gully. Is there a problem with the UF cable coming up thru the water and into the shed?

Thanks again!

I believe code requires 18 inches for residential. I can guarantee there is cable buried in my yard that is not nearly that deep and I'm not worried.

Water is not an issue with underground rated cable. Just be carefull when you install to not nick the insulation (it is pretty tough anyway). A bit of sand surrounding the cable is good insurance.
 
Well, the only reason to go with the spa panel is that it's a lot cheaper than the 30a Murray GFCI. The bonus is that you get a local disconnect at your brewing location.

True, the spa panel is cheaper than the breaker, but if I installed the 50 amp spa panel in the shed, I'd also need to buy a 50 amp 2 pole breaker for the main panel, and then run #6 cable to the shed. The extra breaker and heavier cable would overrun any savings from the spa panel.

Having GFCI protection all the way from the main panel would be a good thing too, I think, in the event the cable gets nicked or damaged some how and there's a current leak somewhere along the line. The GFCI should trip before I get zapped.

The local disconnect would be nice, but I guess I'll have to rely on PJ's diagrammed E-stop button to kill power to the brewery in the event of an 'Oh sh*t' moment.
 
I believe code requires 18 inches for residential. I can guarantee there is cable buried in my yard that is not nearly that deep and I'm not worried.

Water is not an issue with underground rated cable. Just be carefull when you install to not nick the insulation (it is pretty tough anyway). A bit of sand surrounding the cable is good insurance.

Thanks, that helps me a lot. If I do bury it I'll have to do it in the winter when the ground is wet and soft. In the summer it's dry and 95-100 everyday, and the red clay is literally as hard as cement.
 
Having GFCI protection all the way from the main panel would be a good thing too, I think in the event the cable gets nicked or damaged some how and there's a current leak somewhere along the line. The GFCI should trip before I get zapped.

Actually it could cause a lot of "nuisance" trips. I think a good number of underground feeds would trip on a GFCI. The GFCI device is probably best installed closer to your brewery. You can still use the 50A breaker with 30A wiring as long as you have the feed protected at 30A ahead of the spa panel. The breaker will only provide the GFCI protection then and not overcurrent protection.
 
Actually it could cause a lot of "nuisance" trips. I think a good number of underground feeds would trip on a GFCI. The GFCI device is probably best installed closer to your brewery. You can still use the 50A breaker with 30A wiring as long as you have the feed protected at 30A ahead of the spa panel. The breaker will only provide the GFCI protection then and not overcurrent protection.

That's good to know, and I stand corrected. I just got home from a beer tasting and I'm a little slow right now, but I think you're saying I could throw a 30 amp breaker in the main panel, run 10/3 with ground to the shed to a 50 amp spa panel. The 30 amp main breaker would trip if I exceeded 30 amps, and the spa panel GFCI would trip if I had a current leak some where.
That's seems pretty logical - I'll re-read it in the morning to see if it still makes sense then.... :drunk:

Edit - Maybe I wouldn't need the ground wire running to the shed if I'm using the spa panel?
 
bigljd said:
That's good to know, and I stand corrected. I just got home from a beer tasting and I'm a little slow right now, but I think you're saying I could throw a 30 amp breaker in the main panel, run 10/3 with ground to the shed to a 50 amp spa panel. The 30 amp main breaker would trip if I exceeded 30 amps, and the spa panel GFCI would trip if I had a current leak some where.
That's seems pretty logical - I'll re-read it in the morning to see if it still makes sense then.... :drunk:

Edit - Maybe I wouldn't need the ground wire running to the shed if I'm using the spa panel?

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. And you said it better with beer in you than I did sober;)

I think the ground wire is good insurance. I always run one with an underground feed. I believe if you do skip it you should install ground rod(s) at the shed which is probably more costly.
 
I think the ground wire is good insurance. I always run one with an underground feed. I believe if you do skip it you should install ground rod(s) at the shed which is probably more costly.

A ground wire is probably a good idea, but not necessary. Look around and you'll find ideas on wiring a spa disconnect with either 3 or 4 wires coming in (assuming 240V). Perfectly acceptable as the GFIC begins in the spa disconnect.

Also, you're correct about using a 50A GFIC to protect a 30A circuit. The GFI is only their to monitor leakage and trip if there's a problem

Good luck!
 
I assume you mean neutral and not ground. 240v is Hot, Hot, Ground. Spa panels have a neutral bus because many spas will have a 240v heater but 120v for pump, lights, and control. You probably want to run a 120v pump at least so you want hot, hot, neutral and ground out to the shed.
 
I'll probably run the ground wire too. I think I've got a good plan, now I just have to get started building. I'll update this thread when I'm ready wire things up.

Thanks all
 
Here's an update on my electric brewery build project. I'll start a new thread when I make some progress on my control panel. I'm waiting for some parts to ship to me for the control panel, so in the mean time I decided to wire up the receptacle from my main breaker panel.

I drilled out a hole in the breaker box with a step bit and ran some 10/3 with ground romex out and thru a hole in the drywall. After shutting off the main breaker I replaced 4 of the 15 amp single breakers with 2 of the tandem 15 amp breakers. Then I added in the 30 amp 2 pole breaker and wired it up. Then I wired up the receptacle and tested for continuity with my multimeter. Everything looked good so I powered up the main panel and flipped on the new 30 amp breaker and I'm getting 240 volts at the receptacle so everything seems to be OK.

Last weekend I scored a Hoffman 12x12x6 metal enclosure on Ebay for $26 (plus $13 for shipping). It's supposed to arrive on Monday so I can start building the panel next week. I posted some pics below. It's got a few holes in it already, but I'll either use them or fill them in.

Thanks again for the advice, all!


My new 30 amp receptacle:
DSCN2053.JPG


DSCN2054.JPG



My Ebay enclosure being UPS'd right now:
enclosure_1.jpg


enclosure2.jpg
 
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