Water is important

So, apparently, Death is not the master brewer he thought he was.

I've had a string of bad beers. All of my beers have been getting a nasty flavor and its most prominent in my lighter alcohol and lighter colored beers.

i gave some to my friend last night and he nailed it: chlorophenols.

now, i've never treated my water and i always thought i had "good water" so i didn't have to worry.

i always top off with bottled or distilled water (if i top off) and i figure anything bad would just get boiled out...apparently that's not the case with chloramine.

why was i making great beers before? why is this flavor just showing up in my batches from the last couple of months. answer: temperature. when things warm up, algae grows and the city uses more chemicals. so all the beers i brewed in late summer are crap.

so, yeah, check your water and take the necessary precautions. i'm going to buy a filter in about 30 minutes.

i has been humbled

Maybe your well water is tapped from the bowels of hell! BTW, I'm getting all nostalgic about my high school days and I'm listening to Suicidal Tendencies right now! I know, off topic, but This is DEATH I'm speaking to!

no, no, no...you have it wrong. ****ing Slayer, man! ****ING SLAYER!

:rockin: :rockin: :rockin:

Not sure how it is in the Bay Area, but up here they really up the amount of chloramine in the city water during the summer. I think to counteract the larger amount of turbidity (literally, crap) that grows in the warmer months. I had a Kolsch not too long ago that had some cholophenolic taste to it...at least I think that's what it is. I've bottled a few, so maybe I'll ship it down for a taste test. The funny thing is...I've ALWAYS used a filter. Pretty frustrating trying to track down an off-flavor that people rarely get.

1 Campden Tablet in 20 gallons of water, takes care of Chloramines in about 10 minutes. Best addition to my process ever, besides sanitation.

Cheers

That's it, your water came from South of Heaven!:rockin:

I read someplace that Chloramines have sort of a cumulative affect, they build up. For example it's not JUST that it is in your mash&boil water for example, but also that a brewer sanitized all his equipment, then rinses and sanitizes his fermentor, THEN his secondary, then his bottling bucket, his hoses, his lines of bottles or keg. ANd it's also worse if you use chlorine based cleansers and those who sanitizes with bleach, then rinse with tap water.

So what happens is your wort/beer comes into contact with a lot of chlorine in it's journey from grain to glass, and each time leaving behind a little bit, and depending on the rest of your water chemistry, and how that helps or hinders it, you can sometimes end up with your beer tasting like your does...

And then you clean up your gear after with the water as well...


That's why it's REALLY a good idea to get away from the "old school" ideas of sanitizing with bleach, that a lot of old timers still do as well as new brewers who stumble upon it in books and and boards, and they want to cut corners. If the brewer is using tap water anywhere else in the cycle AND THEN adding bleach is an invitation to trouble...

For the rest of us who don't sanitize with chlorine, we can still have it build up to the point that chloramines effect our beers. My understanding is that it's a crap shoot, some people water just reacts with the rest of our gear and bam...So we need to be aware of how much chlorinated water we use, and try to limit it as much as possible.

The biggest part obviously is not brewing with it, and mixing up our santizers withRO water as well...

Hang in there buddy, you'll get through it!!

I have been using bottled spring water from the store

.65 cents a gal

DeathBrewer said:

no, no, no...you have it wrong. ****ing Slayer, man! ****ING SLAYER!

:rockin: :rockin: :rockin:

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nah, i HAVE to agree!!! although, i have to make a change...

Infectious Grooves

ahh yeah...... that brings back memories.... Slayer, good. White Zombie, better.... Infectious grooves!!! anyone remember The Plague That Makes Your Booty Move >???????? (yeah, yeah,,, it was suicidal tendencies, but it was better.



ohh, about your water, that does suck indeed.

I have well water, in the southern Sierra Nevada mountains (yep, the same Sierra Nevadas as the brewrery (that brewery is NOT in the Sierra Neavadas btw!!) and my water is ****.
i buy water from rite-aid, or Vons grocery store @ a buck a gallon for their branded "spring water"....
sad part, i have a whole house water filter system that cost me a pretty penny to install, and you still cannot drink my water, tastes like licking a chain link fence... very metallic (reminds me of metallica, back when they did not suck, say..... justice album and before....ride the lightning anyone???) not good for brewing, or even washing clothes...

anyway, what was the post again?
i am going to download some S.T. mp3's and rock out, while drinking the best damned porter i have ever drank.... funny thing is, it is my second batch of homebrew, and it f'n rocks!



last thought, Deathbrewer, i made this brew (extract with steeping grains) due to your crazy huge thread about partial mash...so, here is to you!

thanks. this actually is a good beer. P.M. me your shipping info, i will send ya a bottle to try and see what you think. (but hurry, im down to the last case)

Death, I have only been brewing seriously for three years and by all rites that makes me a noob! But I will say that i have an insane friend that obsesses over every aspect of brewing. Spending time with him and talking brew talk with him has accelerated the learning curve for me. He simply breaks beer down to percentages, what is the percentage of water in beer as opposed to other ingredients? Enough said, water chemistry makes my head hurt, but getting a water report of my local water, investing in a water filter and a ph meter and looking at Palmer's Excel spreadsheet has totally improved my beers in every way.


Eastside

I've made an order through morebeer for some misc brewing stuff, and along with that order is a 4# tub of PBW, and a 32oz container of StarSan. I've been using Iodophor and regular washing techniques...but times they are a changing. My order comes in on Monday, and the whole brewery is getting a thorough cleaning. Next brew day will be sanitized with StarSan...everything else will stay the same, mainly 10" carbon filter for brewing water and I'll be brewing up either a citrus wheat or an Amber...something light so I can see if the chlorophenol taste still exists. I'll keep you updated!

DB, I'm sure it probably is your water BUT... I would find out from your utility co. just to be sure. May I ask what type of yeast you are using (and how you are pitching it)? This phenolic flavor has been turning up a lot lately (here and on other forums). The wierd thing is that so far the only common denominator among all of us is that we are using dry yeast, usually safale s-04 or us-05.

What exactly is a chlorophenol taste? Just curious so I can be on the lookout when I get a batch that is different from prior ones.

Hey thanks Death, I have been meaning to start this thread. Just kept forgetting.

Yes. The folks who say, if it tastes okay you can make beer with it I say BULLSH!TE!

I was having similar problems. They got worse recently in fact I can now smell the chlorine as it comes out of the tap. The water dept. says they do not use chloramines... yet.

Thing is, I have an under the sink carbon filtration system. It is not enough. Even with fresh filter cartridges it still affects my beer.

Fortunately for me I remembered a natural roadside spring a friend had shown me. I had toyed with the idea of using that for a while and finally did recently.

WOW. Wicked difference. Water quality is THE most important thing I feel now.

Pro-brewer has a great two part paper on Chlorophenols...I haven't seen it before, but I was googling for the original description/link I was talking about earlier..this looks even more promising.

It's in pdf form.

Part 1
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library/42-phenolic.pdf

Part 2
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library/43-phenolic.pdf

I can't promise since it's from probrewer that it is not going to be difficult to understand, but maybe we non science tyoes can find help deciphering it

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

I've made an order through morebeer for some misc brewing stuff, and along with that order is a 4# tub of PBW, and a 32oz container of StarSan. I've been using Iodophor and regular washing techniques...but times they are a changing. My order comes in on Monday, and the whole brewery is getting a thorough cleaning. Next brew day will be sanitized with StarSan...everything else will stay the same, mainly 10" carbon filter for brewing water and I'll be brewing up either a citrus wheat or an Amber...something light so I can see if the chlorophenol taste still exists. I'll keep you updated!

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I don't understand why you are making a switch from iodophor? What does that have to do with phenolics? Iodophor is not a chlorine based product, so doesn't create chloraphenols. And at the right dillution it doesn't impart any flavors in your beer.

Revvy said:

Pro-brewer has a great two part paper on Chlorophenols...I haven't seen it before, but I was googling for the original description/link I was talking about earlier..this looks even more promising.

It's in pdf form.

Part 1
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library/42-phenolic.pdf

Part 2
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library/43-phenolic.pdf

I can't promise since it's from probrewer that it is not going to be difficult to understand, but maybe we non science tyoes can find help deciphering it

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Yes I also read through most of those two papers. The causes they mention are "wort spoilage organisms" and Phenols in water supply. There is a brief mention of chlorine as a "new" sanitizer (my guess is these were written in the late '50's early 60's based of reference texts) and it could contribute to chlorophenols.

shecky said:

What exactly is a chlorophenol taste? Just curious so I can be on the lookout when I get a batch that is different from prior ones.

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I've seen it described as any of the following: band-aids, plastic or burnt plastic, clove-like, solventy, burnt rubber, or even smoky. If you get it as bad as I have, the beer is undrinkable and it only gets worse with age.

From the research I've been doing, the culprits are:
1. Chlorine/chloromides in the water (produces chlorophenols)
2. Chlorine as a sanitizer which is not rinsed properly (produces chlorophenols)
3. Wild yeast (produces phenols)
4. Yeast "strained" by high ferment temps, high re-hydration temps, or basically anything that causes stress to or reacts with the yeast to produce phenols (I know, very vague which is what I'm trying to nail down).

Revvy said:

I don't understand why you are making a switch from iodophor? What does that have to do with phenolics? Iodophor is not a chlorine based product, so doesn't create chloraphenols. And at the right dillution it doesn't impart any flavors in your beer.

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Yeah, I know it's probably NOT the source of my off flavor - but the bottom line is that I don't know for a fact that the taste I'm getting is chlorophenolic. On the off chance it's the sanitizer, I'll be able to identify it after the switch...and I've been wanting to try StarSan anyways. I know the local water company puts chloramine in our water, but I can't taste/smell it after it goes through my filter. However, the filter I'm using has a pretty high flow rate and here's the info on morebeer.com about my filter:

Water Filter (10") - Carbon Block | MoreBeer

After talking to different manufacturers it is our understanding that chloramines can be removed by carbon filtration if the water has a long contact time with the carbon. It is recommended to use at a fill rate of less than 1 gallon per minute in order to remove chloramines.

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Funny thing is...I've been using the same water and filter as other brewers in the area, and their beer doesn't have taste. Oh well, I guess I'll try filtering the water very slowly...and if that doesn't work I'll just purchase some water from the grocery store.

That's it...I'm fed up with the off taste whatever the hell it is. I'm going to the LHBS today to pick up the identical recipe I brewed two weeks ago. No other changes EXCEPT I'll use a different water source...probably store bought bottled water. Hopefully in another two weeks I'll be able to tell if my tap water is the culprit.

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

That's it...I'm fed up with the off taste whatever the hell it is. I'm going to the LHBS today to pick up the identical recipe I brewed two weeks ago. No other changes EXCEPT I'll use a different water source...probably store bought bottled water. Hopefully in another two weeks I'll be able to tell if my tap water is the culprit.

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It is indeed very frustrating. Its hard to RDWAHAHB when your HB tastes like s***. Keep us posted...

no phenolls here but i have a wicked iron problem, so for everything brewing related i use store RO water, starsan mix here is cloudy right after mixing its so bad.

i've found that RO works best with the addition of 5.2ph buffer at a rate of recommended dosage but use it for all water involved not just what goes into fermenter, ie if you use 8g making a 5.5g batch don't just use 1 tbl use 1tbl+2tsp for the extra water that you lose in boil and mash.

I found my local water report. I have no clue what it means for brewing. Anyone want to take a look?


Its in PDF format.

http://www.cottagegrove.org/publicworks/2007 Consumer Confidence Report.pdf

-TH- said:

It is indeed very frustrating. Its hard to RDWAHAHB when your HB tastes like s***. Keep us posted...

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So, brewed up the same citrus wheat recipe. The only 2 changes I've made were: a)Run water through my filter at a slow rate (for more carbon contact time) and b) 1/2 Campden tablet in 10 gallons of my strike water. Everything else is the same, so only time will tell whether these changes will eliminate this taste. I'll post back in a couple weeks with results...fingers crossed!!!

I'm a relative noob in the homebrew world, but I'm not sure if chloramines are the main problem. Portland treats the water with chlorine to disinfect the water and then "adds ammonia to ensure the disinfection remains adequate throughout the distribution system" (from the annual city water report online). They say they use chlorine to combat giardia and fecal coliform and other stuff that I wouldn't want too much of in my water.

I fill up the pot with tap water, go through all the steps and top off with Brita water with a year-old filter and maybe some more tap water if I don't feel like waiting for the pitcher. I'm sure my brews could be better in general, but everyone who tries mine says they taste great. It's definitely far away from getting a "nasty flavor".

Maybe Portland's different.

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

So, brewed up the same citrus wheat recipe. The only 2 changes I've made were: a)Run water through my filter at a slow rate (for more carbon contact time) and b) 1/2 Campden tablet in 10 gallons of my strike water. Everything else is the same, so only time will tell whether these changes will eliminate this taste. I'll post back in a couple weeks with results...fingers crossed!!!

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I was going to add Campden tablets to my water but the MoreBeer Riverside guy said don't bother. I have always set up a slow trickle through my carbon filters, sometimes the night before and don't have any problems. I heard the same thing, carbon will remove chloramines at a slow discharge rate only.

gonzo brewer said:

I was going to add Campden tablets to my water but the MoreBeer Riverside guy said don't bother. I have always set up a slow trickle through my carbon filters, sometimes the night before and don't have any problems. I heard the same thing, carbon will remove chloramines at a slow discharge rate only.

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I wonder why he said not to bother...campden tablets (potassium metabisulfite) is said to instantly remove chlorines and chloramine. Seems like a sure-fire way to get rid of those chemicals entirely. I'm using both the charcoal block filter and tablets...so we'll see if this works.

Campden tablets - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Campden tablets (potassium or sodium metabisulphite) are a sulphur-based product that is used primarily in wine, cider and beer making to kill certain bacteria and to inhibit the growth of most wild yeast: this product is also used to eliminate both free chlorine, and the more stable form, chloramine, from water solutions (i.e., drinking water from municipal sources). Campden tablets allow the amateur brewer to easily measure small quantities of sodium metabisulphite, so it can be used to protect against wild yeast and bacteria without affecting flavour.

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Filtering will only remove a minimal amount of chloromines if any.

1/2 campden tablet crushed then dropped into the water will do the trick.

my filter specifies that it will remove chloramine. it's the only one i saw that said that, however.

in any case, i will definitely be checking in the future to ensure the water is good to go, especially when trying to stay within the style guidelines.

Same here, filter first and then add campden (potassium metbisulfit).

I make sure to use the Potassium blend because I already have high levels of Sodium in my water.

Once the chemical process is complete (within minutes) the Chloramine is broken down and you are left with slightly increaded levels of Sodium/Potassium, Chloride, and Sulfate. There is also traces of liberated Ammonia but, the levels are so low and Ammonia is so volitile that it should dissapate before it has a chance to effect anything.

I learn all this during a lengthy discussion with a Water Quality Lab Manager.

I've had a similar experience. I'm on a well with a water softener.

I was getting an astringent taste in my beers that feels extremely dry at the back of the tongue. After some drinkable but not excellent brews, I invested in a filter and bypassed the softener. The beer seems to be getting better. Next brew I am going to be using a carbon filter, low flow rate and 5.2 stabilizer in the mash.

There is so much more to beer than just boiling some malt extract and throwing some yeast at it.

Linc

missing link said:

There is so much more to beer than just boiling some malt extract and throwing some yeast at it.

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You're right - that's just what we were told initially so we would get hooked on homebrewing!!!

Reverend JC said:

Filtering will only remove a minimal amount of chloromines if any.

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Anecdotal, I know, but when I fill a bucket straight from the tap, it has a definite green cast. When I fill it slowly through a carbon block filter, it has a light blue cast. Am I not removing chloramine?

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

Funny thing is...I've been using the same water and filter as other brewers in the area, and their beer doesn't have taste. Oh well, I guess I'll try filtering the water very slowly...and if that doesn't work I'll just purchase some water from the grocery store.

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I set it at a trickle and let it run through into a bucket, when I remember the water I forgot was filling I dump the excess from the overflowing bucket and I'm good to go.

missing link said:

I've had a similar experience. I'm on a well with a water softener.

I was getting an astringent taste in my beers that feels extremely dry at the back of the tongue. After some drinkable but not excellent brews, I invested in a filter and bypassed the softener. The beer seems to be getting better. Next brew I am going to be using a carbon filter, low flow rate and 5.2 stabilizer in the mash.

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Municipal tap water has maybe 5ppm Chloramine or 50ppm Chlorine. A water softener will easily add 300ppm of Chlorine, or more depending on the hardness.

So, not to hijack this thread any more than I already have (sorry OP), but how do the breweries filter their water? Or do they boil or treat it in some other way?

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

So, not to hijack this thread any more than I already have (sorry OP), but how do the breweries filter their water? Or do they boil or treat it in some other way?

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We use a 900 gallon RO tank and build our water, a lot of places do that for more consistant brews.

Revvy said:

I read someplace that Chloramines have sort of a cumulative affect, they build up. For example it's not JUST that it is in your mash&boil water for example, but also that a brewer sanitized all his equipment, then rinses and sanitizes his fermentor, THEN his secondary, then his bottling bucket, his hoses, his lines of bottles or keg. ANd it's also worse if you use chlorine based cleansers and those who sanitizes with bleach, then rinse with tap water.

So what happens is your wort/beer comes into contact with a lot of chlorine in it's journey from grain to glass, and each time leaving behind a little bit, and depending on the rest of your water chemistry, and how that helps or hinders it, you can sometimes end up with your beer tasting like your does...

And then you clean up your gear after with the water as well...

Click to expand...

This bothers me...hmmmm. I don't use anything other than star san and PBW, but it's all mixed with tap water.

I'll go the distilled/RO route with star san but I can't see there being a good solution for cleaning with anything but tap water.

Reverend JC said:

We use a 900 gallon RO tank and build our water, a lot of places do that for more consistant brews.

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By build, you mean add elements back into the water that give you "brewing quality" water?

Saccharomyces said:

Municipal tap water has maybe 5ppm Chloramine or 50ppm Chlorine. A water softener will easily add 300ppm of Chlorine, or more depending on the hardness.

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water softeners add Chloride, not chlorine. I would also think that 50ppm of chlorine is too high for a municipal supply, I've typically seen 2-5ppm on reports for both chloramine or chlorine.

TwoHeadsBrewing said:

So, brewed up the same citrus wheat recipe. The only 2 changes I've made were: a)Run water through my filter at a slow rate (for more carbon contact time) and b) 1/2 Campden tablet in 10 gallons of my strike water. Everything else is the same, so only time will tell whether these changes will eliminate this taste. I'll post back in a couple weeks with results...fingers crossed!!!

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What were the findings?