My beers are too dry!

It seems like I've got a problem with over-attenuation. My first one, the DFH 60 clone, used pacman yeast and I mashed at 154. It finished at 1.010, which I attributed to the pacman yeast. Since it started at 1.070, I was expected 1.018 or so.

The second too-dry beer was my Lil Bastard. Mashed at 155, used nottingham yeast. Finished at 1.010, not too far off the 1.012 I was expecting.

The third- BP's 777. Followed the instructions he gave and mashed at 147. Started at 1.068, finished at 1.006. Nottingham yeast again, due to some unfortunate issues with the liquid yeasts I had.

The fourth- Fat Tire clone from AHS. Mashed at 154-155, og 1.053, fg 1.005. Nottingham yeast again.

My thought is I need to mash at a higher temp- but how high? I generally like a medium bodied beer and thought I'd get that by mashing in the 154-155 range. Is it ok to mash my next couple in the 158 range, just to see what's going on? I'm not brewing until next week, when my order from AHS comes. I'm making the three in my signature next.

Nottingham yeast really likes to eat, those numbers don't look at all out of line. PacMan is pretty darn voracious as well.

The only one that is really shocking of the four is the Fat Tire; all the others, for one reason or another, should have attenuated pretty highly (the Pacman, the low temp on the 777). Why not give another yeast a shot - maybe Windsor?

I don't understand how the Fat Tire would have finished so low, though; 1.005 is REALLY low even with a low mash temp (and you mashed pretty high). No chance a wild yeast got involved, is there?

What is your water to grain ratio? A high water to grain ratio will produce more fermentables and lead to a lower finishing gravity. I typically use a ratio of 1.1qts/lb and end up with slightly high finishing gravities. I wouldn't change your mash temps if you are sure your thermometer is correct.

First thing I'd do is check your thermometer.

After the first two low f.g's, I bought a new thermometer. I use two in the mash, and double check them. Water boils at 212, ice water is 32. My candy thermometer only goes down to 100, but I use that as my backup in the mash.

I mash with about 1.2 quarts/lb. The last one, the Fat Tire, was pretty darn thick. I wanted that one to finish higher, particularly.

I've use nottingham many times in the past, and had no issues. The pacman I used once before, and that batch (mini mash) finished at like 1.018. No wild yeast issues- everything tastes fine and no gushers or anything weird. The temperature has been on the cool side in my fermentation area- the thermometer on the carboy shows the beer in the 63-64 degree range. That will change as summer comes, but that was the temp of the last 4 beers.

I guess I could try yet one more thermometer in the mash- a new one. That would be the quick and easy fix. I was thinking that I'd make the hobgoblin clone next- I could mash that one at say, 158, and see what's going on.

I second trying the Windsor for tests. It will finish high and produces a pleasant fruityness...although you might not want it in some styles.

You can, as you have speculated, mash at 158 °F. It does indeed work and I have at least one recipe where I do so.

Thinking some more on this though you are really hitting a low FG. That is really dry and many people have a hard time hitting it if they try. Make certain you are mixing well and rechecking your temp 5 minutes into the mash after it has equalized. I have had reading as much as 10 °F off from mash in and stir to 5 minutes in fwiw.

How long into the mash are you getting conversion?

-Mash slightly higher
-Use something other than Nottingham
-Add maltodextrin to the boil
-Double-check your post-boil volume. I've been surprised by low SG before, only to realize that I didn't allow for enough time to boil down and it was merely diluted.

Thanks for all the input so far.

Let's see- I have some Windsor anyway, and I was planning on using that for the Hobgoblin anyway.

I stir the mash often (maybe every 10 minutes) and only lose maybe a degree in an hour. I'm using the 10 gallon Gott with a false bottom.

The ironic thing is in my extract batches- I NEVER got as low as I wanted! I always had a bit of residual sweetness. Not bad in the Dead Guy or Fat Tire, but not really wanted in the pale ale! All the extracts finished around 1.018 or so.

I've only checked for conversion at the end- so 60 minutes mash, except for the rye IPA, that was 75 minutes I believe. I could check earlier next time, and see when it's actually converted.

As far as ingredients, the rye had 15% flaked rye and 8 ounces crystal; the DFH was all 2-row (except for 8 ounces maris otter added), the FT clone had 48% munich malt, 43% 2-row, 8 ounces crystal, 4 ounces victory, 3 ounces biscuit, and the Lil Bastard had 28% each munich, wheat, maris otter. and 3-4% each of special B, crystal, aromatic, caravienne. Totally dissimilar recipes!

Everything tastes ok, except a bit dry. But it's pretty well covered by the flavors- dryhopping the DFH and rye IPA, the late 1 ounce centennial addition in the Lil Bastard, etc. The FT clone is a bit dry but it has such little flavor to me that it's just a lawnmower beer anyway and my husband likes it. Still, I'd like to correct this!

Yooper Chick said:

I've only checked for conversion at the end- so 60 minutes mash, except for the rye IPA, that was 75 minutes I believe. I could check earlier next time, and see when it's actually converted.

Click to expand...

Checking your conversion time seems like the next step to me. I have heard that conversion can take place in as little as 15-20 minutes. If you're getting conversion right away, by continuing the mash all you would be doing is drying it out.

Edit: Also, when I am faced with dryness, I have found that a little back massage can help get things going in the right places...

Chairman Cheyco said:

Edit: Also, when I am faced with dryness, I have found that a little back massage can help get things going in the right places...

Click to expand...

I'll refrain from making a comment that involves "keg lube"

Err... I guess I won't.

the_bird said:

I'll refrain from making a comment that involves "keg lube"

Err... I guess I won't.

Click to expand...

+1!

Mods!!! This is OT!!1

Shouldn't you be babysitting the drunken politics section, or something?



Feel free to delete this bird, just messin' with ya.

No, nobody's deleting nothin'! This is MY thread and I like it.

Cheyco says: Edit: Also, when I am faced with dryness, I have found that a little back massage can help get things going in the right places...

Well, I've never had this problem before, so I appreciate all your experience with this.

Ok, my plan for the next batch is: Mash at 158; check conversion and mash out and and batch sparge as soon as conversion happens, regardless of time; use Windsor yeast.

Anything else I'm missing?

Carapils

My Hobgoblin recipe has 7 ounces caraPils in it, in a 10 pound grain bill. Is that enough?

'tis for me, but go for it if you want.

Yooper Chick said:

My Hobgoblin recipe has 7 ounces caraPils in it, in a 10 pound grain bill. Is that enough?

Click to expand...

In a 10 gallon batch or grain bill total? Otherwise, no, a half pound would be better. No wonder!

Honestly, I'm 100% certain it is your thermometer.

I've been having this problem lately as well. I've increased my mash temp to no avail. I'm not sure what's going on with your brews, but I'm beginning to think I have an infection that isn't showing up as a flaw I can taste (other than dryness). My suspicion is if I leave it in the bottle for awhile the wild yeast will keep fermenting in the bottle and I'll be able to taste it sooner or later. Interestingly, one of my beer didn't have the problem and turned out perfect, but the last one I just kegged was over attenuated again.

Have you checked that your hydrometer is reading correctly?

Yes, I checked the hydrometer. I bought a new one between brews (my old one finally broke) but I did check it. It's 1.000 at 60 degrees. I'll try it with a different thermometer again- and Orfy says that that .5 pound of caraPils is enough for him, so it's good enough for me! (It's Orfy's recipe that we converted to American measurements). A five gallon batch.
Maybe it is the thermometers I've been using. I really doubt it's an infection- maybe once, but a not tastable infection that produces no symptoms except dryness in four AG batches? And it's dry out of the primary, after a normal ferment.
Well, thanks for all the info. I"ll be trying next week. I think the key will be doing a faster mash, based on conversion, and a higher temp. mash. I'll let you all know how it turns out.

My guess is the thermometers/hyrometers. How has the taste been? Have they tasted dry, or is it just the math that's coming out that way?

Beyond that you may be right with the infection.

If not I'll go along with the high mash temp/ carapils solution.

It's funny. I've been going for lower gravities, and been getting finals in the mid teens. I'll have to try these yeasts you folks are talking about...

Y.C., I haven't read the whole thread carefully, but I generally put half a pound to a pound of cara-pils in per five gallons.... It's habit, I guess, and I'm trying to cut back. -p

Man..nottingham is crazy. I pitched it dry..and not 4 hours later it was bubbling away like mad. It droped 30 points overnight. I will be using it a lot more often. Pacman is the same way.


Dan

Well, the taste is ok. Actually, the DFH clone was fantastic. But I think the dryhopping enhanced it so much, that it was my best beer ever. BP's 777 tastes fine, but maybe the rye and dryhopping cover any dryness. The FT clone was just bottled the other day- so out of the secondary it tasted like it should have, except a bit dry. I think the Lil Bastard is a bit too dry and the centenniel hops prodominate so much because if it. I told the_bird that it tastes like flowers. It's getting better, but the floral-ness is definitely there and I think it's because there isn't any residual sweetness to balance it out. No gushers or any problems, though. And once it hits the f.g out of the primary, it doesn't drop any more. I left a couple of them in secondary for 2-3 weeks, and the f.g. was the same. The beers are clear with nice head and open with a nice pffft. The DFH clone lasted about 2- 2 1/2 months before I drank it all, and it was still the same at the end.

Again, thanks so much. I'll see what happens next week when I make Orfy's Hobgoblin clone.

I had a problem with mash temps and had a longish post regarding it with my solution.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=214654#post214654

No more temp uncertainties!

depending on your type of thermometer you can adjust them after checking for accuracy.

I have a couple like this and I check them from time to time



Determine your boiling point for your altitude here

Then test your thermometer in boiling water.

Next also test it in ice water. Crush some ice and place it in a glass with some water and leave it for a few minutes.

If you have this same style of thermometer adjusting it is done by turning the nut under the dial face until the needle points to the correct temp (either freezing or boiling)