I completely underestimated role of oxygen

Yakima 728
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So on the one hand we have Chris White of White labs and Jamil Z who both basically eat sleep and breath yeast who say 8 ppm of O2 isn't optimum for yeast health and on the other side we have some home brewers who say my beer is fine with shaking.....Tough one , but I'm going with Chris White on this one....I bought the kit las week.:D

This was great info and pushed me over the edge to go ahead and spend a few bucks on this. Besides , the stone / wand are a 1 time expenditure and the o2 costs like 33 pennies per batch , so why the hell not?
This would be a good sticky.Can we stick this thread?Lots of good info in here.:mug:
 
scadieux said:
I made the same recipe (oatmeal stout) with and without oxygen.

Day and night result.

Took less time to ferment, reached FG and much better taste. Drier and more grain flavor coming through.
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Thanks for sharing your findings. This is exactly what I was looking for. I also felt like the results were day and night, but it is nice to hear someone put a batch head to head and confirmed my thoughts.

Joe
 
Fact is beer is fine with shaking... I was making my oatmeal stout without oxygen and I thought it was good. It is just *better* with oxygen...

Oxygen is like you don't know what you've been missing until you try it.
 
All I'm saying is that you guys just aren't shaking hard and long enough. When I'm done shaking my carboy, it's nothing but a pile of glass and fear. I have caused foundation problems in my house I have shaken that thing so hard. The carboy is just a shadow of its former self now, I have shaken all that is good and noble out of it. Until they make an oxygen tank that will put the fear of God in my carboy, then I'm sticking with shaking.

But that's just anecdotal so YMMV.
 
TTB-J said:
All I'm saying is that you guys just aren't shaking hard and long enough. When I'm done shaking my carboy, it's nothing but a pile of glass and fear. I have caused foundation problems in my house I have shaken that thing so hard. The carboy is just a shadow of its former self now, I have shaken all that is good and noble out of it. Until they make an oxygen tank that will put the fear of God in my carboy, then I'm sticking with shaking.

But that's just anecdotal so YMMV.
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Your carboy shaker was made by nicola tesla, then?
 
Just finished knocking out 11g of an all-Chinook Amber. Knocked out 5.5g of 1.052 wort into two carboys. One carboy got my usual aeration treatment, which is 60s of a mix stir driven by a drill. 20s one way, 20s the other way, and then 20s back the first direction. I always get a good vortex and tons of splashing, leaving a bunch of foam on top when I'm done. The other carboy got 60s of pure O2, courtesy of my little set up with 1.4oz O2 tank and regulator.

There's a bit of a learning curve to the O2 set up. First, I don't know what type of stone I've got on there, since my girlfriend bought it as a gift and can't remember where. So it could be a 2 micron, it could be a .5 micron. Those seem like the two most common sizes. Second, it came with a regulator with a barbed output, over which was a really small diameter hose, which was then hand-fit into a hose with an ID the same as the OD of the small hose, which then went through what I assume is a sanitary air filter and down to the stone. Of course, when I started to hit the carboy with O2, I felt/heard it leaking, and traced the leak to where the hose off the barb was hand fit into the larger hose. I tried pinching it off as best as I could, but clearly all the O2 leaving the tank didn't make it to the stone. I'll have to get a clamp or something on there to make a real, secure fitting between the hoses.

At the end of the day, the mix-stir carboy had a bunch more foam on it than the O2. But hopefully what O2 foam there was was 100% O2, so it doesn't need as much.

Both carboys got pitched at 1:30 central with a bit under 1.5L of an intermittent-shaking starter of WY1026, British Cask Ale. They're sitting in a controlled chest freezer with a sp of 67 and diff of 1. I'll keep an eye on how they do and let everyone know the progress.
 
+1 on pure oxygenation. I use an inline oxygenator, and its positive effects are undeniable. If you don't want to oxygenate, then don't; home brewing means making your own beer your own way. You will not hurt my feelings either way, I promise.
 
So my oxygenation kit arrived last week as well. Do you guys sanitize the inside of the gas line (from the regulator to the stone) or just the stone and outside of the tubing?

It would seem a real hassle to sanitize the inside part of the tubing, and part of me is hoping nothing nasty would go through the stone, either due to size or the O2 concentration inside the line. But I'll admit, I don't really know what could and couldn't live in a pure O2 environment for how long. Any takers?

Also, I may be trying a split batch sometime soon as well, if I can find the time and carboy space. I'll post back here with any differences.
 
Nothing survives in pure O2. I only sanitize the exterior tubing + stone (put in boiling water for 5 min).
 
+1 on the "yeast" book this book will give light on the mysteries of fermention!
 
jfowler1 said:
Lets slow down a minute here.

The fact that pure O2 is a really good/better method for aeration is not up for debate any longer. Why, because I'm the OP and I can say whatever I want. Can we agree it is a pretty good method? I think we can. You think shaking things around is just as good - okay. I know I fell into this trap for a few posts too, but maybe we just need to agree to disagree about the science here. Some people think humans rode around on dinosaurs. Who am I to say they didn't? After all, I haven't conducted any experiments to prove my point.

Now that that is out of the way.

First of all, no, I will not be conducting any sort of experiments for comparing a beer with O2 to a beer without O2. I've got a little hunch the beer with the O2 will be better (because I made 24 batches without, and 1 batch with, and the "with" wins - coincidence?). And since I only get to brew about once a month, I am not going to start undercutting my beer quality for the sake of "experiment" to appease some doubting Tom. Buy a kit and see for yourself, or don't. It is not effecting me.

Second, experimentation about dissolved oxygen concentrations has already been done. How can you possibly say you read the entire thread and didn't see anything concrete to that effect? As I am typing this, I am on my couch, and kind of shrugging in disbelief. Even I feel confused. Personally, I quoted and referenced experiments done by Wyeast and White Labs. I offered page numbers and links. But whatever, if that is not enough for you - fine. It is not effecting me.

Finally, I do not have any desire to "convince" anyone who was not already thinking seriously about making this process tweak. The truth is, if you don't want to start doing it, I just don't care. I will never have to drink your beer, so if you are happy with it, then I am happy you are happy. Just brew, shake that carboy up really well, and enjoy. Okay? It is not effecting me.

So in summary, if anyone has been on the fence, and wants to take my "anecdotal" findings at face value - great. I have a feeling you will be happy with your "anecdotally" improved results. For those that responded to my post about finding great improvements with O2 by saying "I disagree!"; that's okay too.

I have no agenda, and I do not want to become the "O2 guy", but for anyone already on the fence, don't let "I disagree!" keep you from making better beer. "I disagree" can stick to what has worked for them for so long now. They obviously know what they are doing, and their beer has no room for improvement. It was ridiculous for me to suggest such a thing.

In fact, I could have been wrong from the start. After all, I have nothing to offer but some anecdotal evidence of one great batch of beer. It was probably dumb luck. And maybe my taste buds aren't even that good. I still haven't drank my beer back to back with some poorly handled Guinness; so how can I compare it? You're right, this whole thread was probably just a waste of everyone's time. So I apologize to anyone who has contributed.

Now excuse me, I have a stout to go choke down.

Joe
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Fantastic response.
 
nfazz said:
I'm not going to come on here and brag about my credentials, but I have more degrees and have done more research than the rest of the people on this board, I assure you.
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Excellent! The effects of oxygen on fermentation including the downstream impacts on beer flavor and tasting panel reaction are discussed ad naseum in the professional and academic literature. A scholar and gentleman such as yourself will have no problem finding this literature.

The kinds of homebrewer kitchen science experiments you propose have also been performed. In fact I read about several each year. You should have no trouble finding write-ups on these as well.

If you want the reader's digest version what you will find is that in terms of tasting panel preference, optimal oxygen levels vary by yeast strain. For many ale strains the ~8 ppm that is possible (but not likely achievable unless you have a mix-stir or an aquarium pump and a lot of patience) via saturation with air is close enough to optimal. For most lager strains it is not. For wheat beer strains, counter-intuitively higher oxygen suppresses ester and phenol production but tasting panels prefer that. Very high gravity beers may have optimal oxygen levels higher than those of their standard gravity counterparts.
 
Thanks Eric.

And as an aside, thanks so much for all the work you do cataloging all the CYBI recipes. You have no idea how many times I have run a google search to find a recipe I know you posted somewhere. That is awesome work.

I have another anecdote for anyone still interested.

My wife and I went to my parents house for dinner. I brought a few of my stouts to have with my dad.

I poured, we drank, and his exact words were, "Wow, this tastes like a real beer." My mom kind of snickered, so he followed with, "No, I mean, like it came from a real craft brewery." I thought of this thread right away.

My dad has tried every beer I ever made. That is roughly 24 batches. This is the first time he said that it tasted like a "real" beer. Again, coincidence?

Kind of backs up the earlier comment I made where I tried to contrast between a great homebrew and a great beer.

Happy Easter,
Joe
 
jfowler1 said:
Thanks Eric.

And as an aside, thanks so much for all the work you do cataloging all the CYBI recipes. You have no idea how many times I have run a google search to find a recipe I know you posted somewhere. That is awesome work.

I have another anecdote for anyone still interested.

My wife and I went to my parents house for dinner. I brought a few of my stouts to have with my dad.

I poured, we drank, and his exact words were, "Wow, this tastes like a real beer." My mom kind of snickered, so he followed with, "No, I mean, like it came from a real craft brewery." I thought of this thread right away.

My dad has tried every beer I ever made. That is roughly 24 batches. This is the first time he said that it tasted like a "real" beer. Again, coincidence?

Kind of backs up the earlier comment I made where I tried to contrast between a great homebrew and a great beer.

Happy Easter,
Joe
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You are welcome. It is my pleasure, I have learned so much.

Eric.
 
After about 24 hours, its hard to tell any difference between the carboy that got agitation and the one that got O2. Both at the same gravity, 1.033, and both about the same krausen. The agitation carboy may have a bit of a thicker krausen, but its hard to tell.
 
ayoungrad said:
What is an inline oxygenator? Where do you get one?
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An inline oxygenator is a bit more expensive but definitely the most elegant solution, and without a doubt the best method overall. I know MoreBeer sells at least two versions (though one is crazy expensive), but I'm not sure of anywhere else.

Basically, it places the oxygenation stone directly inline (as in, right in the flow of the wort), generally right after the chiller, but obviously before it reaches the fermentor.

I basically made mine with some stainless steel fittings and a polycarbonate sight glass in order to be able to see the bubbling to let better gauge the flow of oxygen. It connects directly to the wort outlet of my plate chiller, and with a quick disconnect fitting at the other end to connect the hose that goes to the fermentor. The assembly also houses a thermometer in the flow of wort, immediately after it comes out of the chiller but before it gets oxygenated, although if I decided to measure the temp post-oxygenation, I'd basically just have to switch the quick disconnect to the other side.
 
Rundownhouse said:
After about 24 hours, its hard to tell any difference between the carboy that got agitation and the one that got O2. Both at the same gravity, 1.033, and both about the same krausen. The agitation carboy may have a bit of a thicker krausen, but its hard to tell.
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On average, an insufficiently oxygenated fermentation should finish attenuating about 1-2 gravity points higher, according to Chris White. And if you harvest the yeast, continuing to under-oxygenate it will result in increasing attenuation problems with each successive generation.

But something like an average of 1-2 points means that comparing a single batch might not even show a difference. That's not to say that if you end up showing no difference, that your results should be dismissed. It's still a data point, which is useful, because a 1-2 point average difference may only become obvious when looked at statistically (though the problem I have with household experiments like these are that controls are almost impossible to keep adequately rigorous). Similarly, if you DO find a 1-2 point difference - or possibly even greater - the results from a single (or even a few) such batches are insufficient to be conclusive. It's even possible that the yeast you're using simply has low oxygen requirements, although it's conceivable that the oxygen requirements could be extremely high with British Cask Ale yeast, even if it shows no difference (though I've never used it before, so I won't even speculate).

Not that it ultimately matters though, since all the science, conducted far more rigorously than would ever be possible inside the household, demonstrates the positive difference that sufficient oxygenation makes - both in terms of attenuation AND taste - conclusively enough to result in a STRONG consensus among professionals and academics alike. The only group which significantly debates the fact at all is the homebrewing community, who unsurprisingly are the only ones largely WITHOUT the capabilities to conduct sufficiently controlled experiments with enough samples/data points to be even remotely useful.

So, I applaud your willingness to contribute to the body of knowledge available to homebrewers, and it's not my intention to minimize that contribution, although it's probably more useful as an exercise in seeing-for-yourself. I love charting new territory and conducting my own experiments to figure out information I am otherwise unable of attaining to my satisfaction. But as far as figuring out whether using oxygen is helpful at all, I'd probably consider it just a waste of beer - though if I ended up with the same volume of beer I was going to make anyways, it's not like the less-oxygenated half is going to taste bad (unless the well-oxygenated one is also bad, or if it gets infected I suppose), in which case it's really not much of a sacrifice. Either way, I wouldn't mind hearing your final results.
 
I've used the Williams Brewing O2 kit in the past two brews I've made. I've already noticed much faster fermentation starts. With the batch I brewed on Sunday, it was fully active in under 18 hours. I only gave it about 45 seconds of O2, turned up just enough so that I could see it on the top of the wort (put the wand in as deep as I could/dared)... Even if that's the larges difference between the methods, besides happier yeast, I think it's worth it. If I can get better brew out of it too, then even better.

IMO, the setup from Williams Brewing is very elegant, and very easy to use. Connect the wand to the vinyl tubing and the regulator (after putting the regulator onto the O2 tank). Have the wand already sanitized and insert it into the wort. Turn on the gas until it's bubbling to the top, wait X seconds and then turn off, unscrew the regulator, rinse off the wand and put it all away until next time. Takes all of 2-3 minutes MAX to use. Less time than you would spend shaking the primary to try to oxygenate. Doesn't use any electricity, like the pump method does (I know, not enough juice to talk about, it's the principle) and you don't need to worry about any cords getting messed up... If I can use one tank and oxygenate 10-15 batches, I'll be very happy. I say 10-15 because I'm using ~45 seconds per batch. I do have a barley wine on deck that will probably get 1-2 minutes of O2 before the yeast gets pitched. The OG there is ~1.110, so a big one...
 
Golddiggie said:
I've used the Williams Brewing O2 kit in the past two brews I've made. I've already noticed much faster fermentation starts. With the batch I brewed on Sunday, it was fully active in under 18 hours. I only gave it about 45 seconds of O2, turned up just enough so that I could see it on the top of the wort (put the wand in as deep as I could/dared)... Even if that's the larges difference between the methods, besides happier yeast, I think it's worth it. If I can get better brew out of it too, then even better.

IMO, the setup from Williams Brewing is very elegant, and very easy to use. Connect the wand to the vinyl tubing and the regulator (after putting the regulator onto the O2 tank). Have the wand already sanitized and insert it into the wort. Turn on the gas until it's bubbling to the top, wait X seconds and then turn off, unscrew the regulator, rinse off the wand and put it all away until next time. Takes all of 2-3 minutes MAX to use. Less time than you would spend shaking the primary to try to oxygenate. Doesn't use any electricity, like the pump method does (I know, not enough juice to talk about, it's the principle) and you don't need to worry about any cords getting messed up... If I can use one tank and oxygenate 10-15 batches, I'll be very happy. I say 10-15 because I'm using ~45 seconds per batch. I do have a barley wine on deck that will probably get 1-2 minutes of O2 before the yeast gets pitched. The OG there is ~1.110, so a big one...
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Chris White also recommends hitting it with oxygen again about 12 hours after pitching.
 
IF I can do that, I will. Issue is with my ******* LL, the batch will probably be fermenting in my brew-buddy's basement (a pretty stable 66F year round)... If we brew on a Saturday, I might be able to get back there on Sunday to hit it with more O2. Otherwise, it will need to go with just the initial hit... Still, far more than I would have done if I had brewed the batch earlier... I do plan on doing a stepped starter for that batch, so that I have close to the proper amount of yeast needed. I'll probably do a couple of 1/2 gallon starters, then a final 3qt starter for it. Unless I can get my hands on a solid gallon jar to use. :D Of course, I'll hit the starter with some O2 too. :rockin:
 
Golddiggie said:
Unless I can get my hands on a solid gallon jar to use. :D Of course, I'll hit the starter with some O2 too. :rockin:
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For maybe a dollar more than the cost of an empty gallon jug, I bought a few gallons of fancy apple juice from a local mart and made some EdWort's Apfelwein. The empty jugs (which appear to be the same as the ones I can buy empty at my LHBS) make for excellent containers for starters, experimental batches, etc. Very much worth the minor expense.
 
Golddiggie said:
IF I can do that, I will. Issue is with my ******* LL, the batch will probably be fermenting in my brew-buddy's basement (a pretty stable 66F year round)... If we brew on a Saturday, I might be able to get back there on Sunday to hit it with more O2. Otherwise, it will need to go with just the initial hit... Still, far more than I would have done if I had brewed the batch earlier... I do plan on doing a stepped starter for that batch, so that I have close to the proper amount of yeast needed. I'll probably do a couple of 1/2 gallon starters, then a final 3qt starter for it. Unless I can get my hands on a solid gallon jar to use. :D Of course, I'll hit the starter with some O2 too. :rockin:
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Can't your brew buddy hit it with some O2? Or does he just drink the beer like some of mine? ;)
 
This thread has added a lot of content over the past week! I haven't read everything, so hopefully this note will not be repetitive.

Oxygen is important because of its role in getting glycogen concentrations ramped up, and glycogen is vital for sterol synthesis. Glycogen contributes to yeast membrane function - and sterol-depleted yeast do not process sugars well or maybe at all. After fermentation, cells with healthy glycogen levels are safer from autolysis (according to people who say they know what they are talking about.) This is from "Brewing Yeast and Fermentation" page 91.

So...the upshot is that the customary way for homebrewers to ensure healthy yeast membranes is to give yeast adequate oxygen. Some brewers have added olive oil, too, and achieved the same results (just a drop) because olive oil results in strong glycogen levels in beer, too.

Best to all!
 
Sounds like the glycogen accounts for why dry yeast is said to need less oxygen than liquid yeast.

Although earlier someone mentioned sterols as the reason?
 
meadowstream said:
This thread has added a lot of content over the past week! I haven't read everything, so hopefully this note will not be repetitive.

Oxygen is important because of its role in getting glycogen concentrations ramped up, and glycogen is vital for sterol synthesis. Glycogen contributes to yeast membrane function - and sterol-depleted yeast do not process sugars well or maybe at all. After fermentation, cells with healthy glycogen levels are safer from autolysis (according to people who say they know what they are talking about.) This is from "Brewing Yeast and Fermentation" page 91.

So...the upshot is that the customary way for homebrewers to ensure healthy yeast membranes is to give yeast adequate oxygen. Some brewers have added olive oil, too, and achieved the same results (just a drop) because olive oil results in strong glycogen levels in beer, too.

Best to all!
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Hmmm, for those adding olive oil, do they simply put a drop in the carboy right before pitching? I suppose the risk of contamination is pretty low, but would you get the same benefits if you put it in at flameout?
 
ayoungrad said:
Sounds like the glycogen accounts for why dry yeast is said to need less oxygen than liquid yeast.

Although earlier someone mentioned sterols as the reason?
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So did he, if you read closely.
 
emjay said:
That's not to say that if you end up showing no difference, that your results should be dismissed. It's still a data point
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That's all I'm doing, just providing some data to the thread. I'm fully on the O2 side, believe me.

In general I hate messing with my beers more than necessary, so I'm not going to take any measurements today, but I'll probably do so again tomorrow, and then again maybe on day 7.

My beers have generally been good or better in the past using my mix-stir method of aeration, so I don't mind going a couple more batches where one carboy gets O2 and one gets mix-stir. When I start on a chain of lagers though, its O2 all the way, baby!
 
Rundownhouse said:
That's all I'm doing, just providing some data to the thread. I'm fully on the O2 side, believe me.

In general I hate messing with my beers more than necessary, so I'm not going to take any measurements today, but I'll probably do so again tomorrow, and then again maybe on day 7.

My beers have generally been good or better in the past using my mix-stir method of aeration, so I don't mind going a couple more batches where one carboy gets O2 and one gets mix-stir. When I start on a chain of lagers though, its O2 all the way, baby!
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I dont know that we need to "write off" his results. I for 1 am interested b/c it is what the OP is trying to persuade people to do all along. Try O2 and see if it makes a difference in your beer. I understand him getting upset w/ people saying "splashing has worked for me." How do they know when thye havent compared it to pure O2. If the experiment doesnt work out for this person, and there isnt any taste difference, then that is one pt for the "no diff" side compared to points for the other side of the argument. But a 1-2 pt diffence in attenuation, while likely not statistically significant, is still of relevance.
 
coypoo said:
I dont know that we need to "write off" his results.
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Excellent post by emjay a while back on just this topic. We surely don't need to write any of this off, though there are drawbacks to this data, as the previous post noted. What it does have going for it, though, is being a data point very pertinent to us, as homebrewers, using our methods and our equipment. The professionals and labs collecting the other data points may conceivably differ in their results because of their different processes (their superior control of other variables notwithstanding). Then again, maybe that's not a difference that makes a difference when it comes to the oxygen question at hand. I guess there's only one way to find out.
 
The red o2 tank was only like $8 at Lowe's. I had to ask the guy where they were and he said, "o2 tank...what's it used for?"

Me: "Ummmm....welding?"
 
My O2 aeration set-up from Williams Brewing just arrived.

I'm doing a 1.070 lager in a week or so and will probably use it for that. But, I'm fermenting with dry lager yeast so it will probably not be much of a testament to the effects of oxygen. Fermentis even states that dry yeast does not need aeration.

But, along with my once used refractometer, it will make for a little more fun on my next brew day.
 
So to throw more anecdotal fuel on the fire, I also had great results with O2 but I also have a slightly different take on things. Ever since I went AG, I've been using the Liquid Bread setup and the Home Despot red O2 bottles. I'd always given 60 seconds O2/5 gallons with bubbles just breaking the surface. I'd always heard this is the way to ensure most of the O2 is dissolving and you're not just bubbling too much through and wasting gas. I'd had great results but I always liked the idea of the wand so I switched to that and kept the same routine. No flavor/fermentation changes were observed, just the ease of use and cleaning.

To get serious and truly reproducible about O2, I decided to get a real regulator and a medical flow meter. This way I could use a 20lb O2 tank and set the flow rate to the recommended 1L/min. When I switched over I was amazed. I had way more bubbles coming to the surface than I did when manually guessing at the regulator setting. Basically I was under oxygenating with the old method.

When comparing the results of old vs new methods, the FGs were about the same but the new, 1L/min, fementations finshed quicker. (disclamer: I'm always tweeking recipes so I rarely brew the EXACT recipe twice.)

I really wish I had a DO meter to actually obtain quatitative data on what the 2 levels were but I think it does go to show that whenever you think your process is great be it Shaking, Air Pump or O2, there may still be some gains to be had.

(As a side note, my regulator and flow meter both cost less on ebay that the original Liquid Bread kit)
 
Yesterday the carboy that got O2 was at about 1.016, the mix-stir carboy was at 1.017 or maybe 1.018. Since they're both so close to FG I won't check them again until its time to keg.
 
Just knocked out 11g of a 1.056 ale. Went into two carboys that each got 11.5g of rehydrated US-05. One carboy got my 60s of mix-stir aeration, the other got 60s of O2. Last time I discovered a leak in my O2 setup, and this time around I corrected that. I also just opened the regulator all the way for those 60s. This time I got much better foam on top of the wort, but its still not as thick as the mix-stir.

So two carboys, each with 5.5g of 1.056 wort that got pitched with 11.5g of rehydrated US-05, sitting in a chest freezer with a sp of 67 and diff of 1. I'll check on them and let you guys know if I see any differences.
 
How open is everyone's regulator on the Williams unit? I tried mine for the first time yesterday. I wasn't sure to put it on blast, barely open, or in the middle.
 
BrewThruYou said:
How open is everyone's regulator on the Williams unit? I tried mine for the first time yesterday. I wasn't sure to put it on blast, barely open, or in the middle.
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On mine there is almost no 'middle'. For the most part it's either OFF or BLAST but a careful hand can get it to an acceptable middle setting.

If it's causing a lot of foam on top then a lot is escaping into the headspace but you can then just shake the carboy to get some of it back into the beer.
 
ok, read through all of this (quickly) and am not a scientist, but I can read. Now help me out, after I boil this down (could not resist) to the irreducible minimum for those who want the bottom line.

1. For most Ales, getting to 8ppm oxygen using air only to oxygenate by air pump or by mixer run off a drill is probably sufficient in most cases.

2. For other types of beer, or for those wanting more than 8ppm O2 for whatever reason, get the O2 set up and give the wort 60 seconds of O2 and make sure it is bubbling pretty good for the full 60 seconds.

Now here is what I do not think was covered. When using O2, if, in fact, the wort is only capable of absorbing so much of all types of gases in the aggregate and maxing out at 8ppm O2 when using air only, is it not important that steps be taken NOT TO agitate or airate the wort with air after boiling and before hitting it with O2???

Do I have this right? If so, in other words, when using O2:

1. the wort should be gently transferred into the fermenter (by siphon or the like and not just spalshed into the fermenter through a spigot from the kettle which would add air to it) and then hit with the O2; or

2. could you hit the cooled down wort with the O2 right in the boil kettle and then transfer it to the fermenter and then pitch? (and, if so, could it then be splashed in through a spigot or should it be gently transferred into the fermenter?) This seems easier unless someone sees something wrong with the idea.
 
shorty said:
ok, read through all of this (quickly) and am not a scientist, but I can read. Now help me out, after I boil this down (could not resist) to the irreducible minimum for those who want the bottom line.

1. For most Ales, getting to 8ppm oxygen using air only to oxygenate by air pump or by mixer run off a drill is probably sufficient in most cases.

2. For other types of beer, or for those wanting more than 8ppm O2 for whatever reason, get the O2 set up and give the wort 60 seconds of O2 and make sure it is bubbling pretty good for the full 60 seconds.

Now here is what I do not think was covered. When using O2, if, in fact, the wort is only capable of absorbing so much of all types of gases in the aggregate and maxing out at 8ppm O2 when using air only, is it not important that steps be taken NOT TO agitate or airate the wort with air after boiling and before hitting it with O2???

Do I have this right? If so, in other words, when using O2:

1. the wort should be gently transferred into the fermenter (by siphon or the like and not just spalshed into the fermenter through a spigot from the kettle which would add air to it) and then hit with the O2; or

2. could you hit the cooled down wort with the O2 right in the boil kettle and then transfer it to the fermenter and then pitch? (and, if so, could it then be splashed in through a spigot or should it be gently transferred into the fermenter?) This seems easier unless someone sees something wrong with the idea.
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Well, agitating the wort without the intention of aerating it won't really cause any significant level of oxygenation. White Labs determined less than 2.5ppm of oxygen becomes dissolved with the use of devices intended to aerate the wort through transfer by splashing.

Not sure of the point of oxygenating in the kettle, it seems no different from oxygenating in the fermenter. The "easiest" method would be in-line oxygenation that hits the wort with O2 while it's being transferred. Oxygenating in the kettle won't prevent further aeration from the agitation either, unless you saturate it with pure oxygen - something that is a very, very bad idea. If anything, it's worse, because at least oxygenating AFTER the fact leaves less capacity for oxygen to saturate the wort.

Your very first point is misleading though. Ignoring the fact that 8ppm is, in practice, pretty difficult to achieve with agitation methods, the idea that 8ppm is sufficient for most ales hinges entirely on what you determine to be sufficient. The fact is, 8ppm can produce good, drinkable beer (which Manny would consider "sufficient"), but the substantial majority of ales (and the yeast strains they are fermented with) will see a tangible benefit by increasing the dose of oxygen to 10ppm, and many will see an even greater benefit by increasing the dose even further.
 

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