Cider Yeast starter question...please help

I'm planning on making 15-20 gallons of hard cider in the next week. I'll be making 5 gal batches back using bottled apple cider(pasturized,no persvatives) and utilizing Red Star Champagne yeast.

I know I could simply "dump" the yeast packet in, But I have a stir plate and would rather become proficient with using it to make starters for all our brewing sessions.

My question is this...Do I use Apple juice,DME or hot water to add the yeast packet to? I appreciate the help in advance and am learning so much from HBT!

O.Nolasco

i would use apple juice with some yeast nutrient. aim for a SG of 1.040 or so and aerate the crap out of it to the point of oxidation. repeat till you have enough yeast. then pour off the liquid and pitch the slurry at the bottom of the starter.

+1. I did that for a cyser. It worked well and I will do it again with my cider next year. It makes sense for big volumes to make a starter and next fall I will be going very big.

Rehydrate with 104 degree tapwater only, first. Anything else used to rehydrate wine yeast is potentially harmful to the yeast, unless it is GoFerm.

After it is rehydrated, you can add a little must to make a starter.

DaveAllen said:

Rehydrate with 104 degree tapwater only, first. Anything else used to rehydrate wine yeast is potentially harmful to the yeast, unless it is GoFerm.

After it is rehydrated, you can add a little must to make a starter.

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Follow the directions on the packet, which say to add it to 100 degree water.

That was suppose to be a "What DaveAllen said" comment.

TipsyDragon said:

i would use apple juice with some yeast nutrient. aim for a SG of 1.040 or so and aerate the crap out of it to the point of oxidation. repeat till you have enough yeast. then pour off the liquid and pitch the slurry at the bottom of the starter.

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This is what we were originally thinking of doing. It makes sense to me! Thanks.

DaveAllen-Question.Why would using anything else besides "tap water" be problematic? Most brewers(EdWort included) simply "dump" the yeast packet into the carboy.

Also, I have a Culligan Reverse Osmosis dual carbon filter h2o system to make my tap water drinkable and beer friendly.

MMTG said:

Why would using anything else besides "tap water" be problematic? Most brewers(EdWort included) simply "dump" the yeast packet into the carboy.

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I don't really think there is too big a problem with dumping the packet right into the starter. It's never done me or the yeast any harm really, but I do prefer to rehydrate my yeast in some water first. I've never used GoFerm. One more thing to buy I don't really need, IMHO.

Lalvin, arguably the largest producer of wine yeasts, recommends that dry yeast be rehydrated in 104 degree tap water only, as tap water contains minerals that are essential to the yeast very early. Additionally, early in rehydration, the yeast cells will absorb some substances that are toxic to them early, so tapwater is best. Here is a link to what they say: Rehydration FAQ

Read it before. I take everything with a grain of salt, especially when it comes from people who sell me things, even if I respect their expertise.

I agree with what they say for the most part, but I also think that some people underestimate the resilience of some organisms (like yeast). I've never had a long lag phase or stressed yeast myself, no matter how I started my yeast. I agree that a person shouldn't start their yeast in distilled water (duh!) since there are no minerals or dissolved oxygen in it, but find me a genuine logical reason why starting yeast directly in an environment full of food is going to harm the yeast.

the yeast cells will absorb some substances that are toxic to them early

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what substances? By what the FAQ said, nitrogenous compounds help the yeast early on: The presence of 1/2% yeast extract, yeast hulls, autolyzed yeast or peptone in the rehydration water will give the yeast an added boost that will get it through its lag phase quicker.


So is it sugar? Some mineral or acid?

I mean, a good start is important and I generally always rehydrate my yeast in tap water first, although for the sake of experimentation I've pitched it straight into the fermenter and starters before, and I've had no signs of unhealthy yeast. The lag phase was not unreasonably slower than had I rehydrated the yeast, and there was none of the rhino farting of a stressed yeast going on, nor was there any detectable HS2 in the product. Moreover, I haven't really read anything about yeast metabolism to indicate that pitching dry yeast into a must would harm it in any way, and I like to read a lot of papers and books on microbiology.

Sorry to sound like a dink. I just don't buy it, based on what I've read and what I've observed.

Don't buy what? That Lalvin knows more about the best way to use their yeast than you do?

Okay. Do whatever you want; I was just answering the guy's question based on what scientific research conducted by the people who manufacture yeast say.

As far as the water question, you can use tap water if it isn't chlorinated or just mineral spring water. I would not use demineralized water though. I used to work with a large demineralizer and we would run the water through pipes to clean them out. The water would bond with any particles or minerals within the pipe. The lesson being that if you use demineralized water it will strip nutrient radicals from your brew. I can't vouch for the commercially distilled water you find in stores (because I can't just walk into their plant to verify their process) but I assume that they all would be just as harmful.

They way I do it, is hydrate the yeast with water. After the yeast wakes up, I add a little bit of must and sugar to the yeast. When the yeast reaches “room temperature” or the temperature that I’ll be fermenting, that’s when I pitch it into the must (after it has reached temp. as well).

Okay - I know that once yeast is started in a solution, due to the nature of osmosis (water will move across a cell membrane from an area of high concentration to low) that all sorts of gnarly stuff like SO2, chlorine, fungicidal terpenes or phenols from hops or spices (or even the fruit) and a number of other things will get carried through and can kill some of the yeast. Lalvin said nothing about that on their webpage. It's pretty elementary.

But say half the pack of yeast is killed and the other part is stressed when pitched into a high-gravity wort or must (which I would never do or advise doing!). Then if conditions are optimal, a healthy fermentation can definitely happen even if it got off to a bad start, because once the yeast has gotten through an initially delayed reproductive phase, the next generation of cells after and after are going to have what they need. The cells that are fermenting the must, once they've built a population, are healthy cells. The ones rehydrated poorly weren't, but they are a tiny fraction of the total population of the yeast in the brew.

As best a start as possible is what you want, of course, so that your yeast can be strong and competitive and build up a population right away. I agree with you an Lalvin, durnit! But my experience is my experience, and I've gotten healthy fermentations started from my experiments with as little as half a packet in five gallons. In lower gravity musts the lag time wasn't too long, but in higher gravity musts it was significantly long to cause some worry. But it always wound up turning into a good healthy fermentation with time if everything else is kept optimal.

I wasn't saying not to rehydrate yeast. But it ain't harmful not to. Just slows things down.

Teromous said:

As far as the water question, you can use tap water if it isn't chlorinated or just mineral spring water.

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Chlorine will dissipate if you let the water stand for some time, I believe. Perhaps it can be boiled off?

I'm not quite certain why one would fail to provide the yeast the optimum conditions to carry out their work, especially in light of the fact that it is incredibly simple to do so. Rehydrate for ten minutes in 104 degree tapwater. Then add a little must to acclimatize the yeast. Let it sit for twenty minutes. Then pitch. Simple.

It's easy to recount the times that doing something the wrong way still turned out right. Just ask the people who designed the space shuttle. Is it worth skipping ten minutes if it happens to be the one time it turns out wrong? I'm not going to risk the time spent sanitizing all my equipment, and the expense of my ingredients, just because I wanted to save a few minutes rehydrating.

Do what works for you. Someone who may be new to homebrewing/winemaking who is seeking advice, deserves to know the "best practices" so they can be suitably informed before choosing what works best for them.

MMTG said:

DaveAllen-Question.Why would using anything else besides "tap water" be problematic? Most brewers(EdWort included) simply "dump" the yeast packet into the carboy.

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There is another thread asking the same thing. I forget if it is here or over in the wine forum. Anyway, I have noticed that following the directions and using tapwater will start the batch faster than if you just dump the yeast in, but dumping it in will work.

Yan said:

Chlorine will dissipate if you let the water stand for some time, I believe. Perhaps it can be boiled off?

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Chlorine will lose it's sanitation properties if heated, but the flavor will still be there, and you'll still need to check the balance of pH levels of your water. I just filter my tap water and everything is ok. Unless you're making beer, you don't use much water anyway.

Thank you for all the replies! I appreciate the level of experiences(on HBT) far beyond my own and I just want the healthiest yeast possible for all my brews(including ciders)