first all grain / very low gravity

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arictaylor

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Hi all,

I attempted my first all grain last night. My target gravity was 1049 and I ended up with 1025.. yikes. So I know for next time, i'' have to watch the water I add.

The mast was:

3.6kg pale malt
226g carapils
226g caramunich

I just put the lid on a few hours ago, not knowing what else to do. Is there anything that I can add that will help get me in line with what I was supposed to have? I do now have any extra grains/malt.
 
Did you crush your own grain or was it crushed for you? whats was you mash temp? give us all your info on what you did.
 
Like Glynn said, walk us through your entire process, from crushing to boil kettle. Without knowing what you did, we won't know what you can tweak!

That process includes who crushed your grains and how. It includes the volume of water you mashed with, the temp you mashed at, how long you mashed. How did you sparge? What temp and volume of sparge water? Did you stir at any time during the mash or sparge? That level of detail.
 
I crushed it at the store at time of purchase.

Boiled water to 75c. Added 10litres to mash tun and took another temp reading which was 68c.

Left in mash tun for 1 hour.
Sparged.

Boiled wort for one hour adding northern brewer, fuggles, goldings.

Topped up to 23litres and then let cool to 20c.

From my readings on here, I guess for next time I should be more careful with how much water I add to the boiled wort? The focus shouldn't be on amount but rather the composition?
 
As for the sparge, I drained the mash tun, then poured that back into the mash tun. Re-drained. Then ran approx 8 liters of boiled water through at 80c.

My instructions said to sparge until a taste test revealed the sweetness was gone.
 
Ok, still need a little more detail:

You say you transferred your strike water to your mash tun and wound up at 68c (154F for us other Americans). One key question here: did you add the water to the mash tun and then the grains into the water, or did you add the water to a mash tun full of grains? And did you ever stir during the mash?

Next, when you say you sparged, share the details - method, temps, etc. There are several ways to sparge, and there could be things to tweak depending on your chosen method.
 
I added the grain into the mash tun (already 10litres of water). I stirred to ensure there were no dry clumps.

Sparge- I used a watering can and evenly distributed over the surface.
 
A little off-topic, but you'll get better responses if you use units more people here are familiar with (ounces, pounds, quarts, gallons, and fahrenheit). When people have to do unit conversions in their head, they're more likely to just skip over your post.
 
Ok... in other units....

8 lbs pale malt
8 oz carapils
8 oz caramunich

added to 2.5 gallons of water at 167F in mash tun. Stirred. Sat for 1 hour.

Drained mash tun into bucket then poured it back into mash tun. Drained again.

Then poured 2.5 gallons of hot water (175F) over mash tun with a watering can.

Boiled malt for 1 hour. Adding in:
1 oz northern brewer
1/2 oz fuggles and goldings

Topped up to 6 gallons and let cool to 68 degres.

Gravity reading at this point 1025.
 
I haven't run the numbers, but I'm guessing your low O.G. is due to a combination of:

  • Somewhat light grain bill (only 9 lbs)
  • Dilution due to topping up to 6 gallons instead of 5 (most recipes are designed for 5 gallon batches)
  • Poor efficiency (this could be due to the grain crush, mashing/sparging technique)

If I were you, I'd run the recipe through BeerSmith and see what it thinks your O.G. should have been based on the weights and volumes you provided.
 
arictaylor said:
Ok... in other units....

8 lbs pale malt
8 oz carapils
8 oz caramunich

added to 2.5 gallons of water at 167F in mash tun. Stirred. Sat for 1 hour.

Drained mash tun into bucket then poured it back into mash tun. Drained again.

Then poured 2.5 gallons of hot water (175F) over mash tun with a watering can.

Boiled malt for 1 hour. Adding in:
1 oz northern brewer
1/2 oz fuggles and goldings

Topped up to 6 gallons and let cool to 68 degres.

Gravity reading at this point 1025.

Yeah I'm guessing it was the dilution. I did this my first batch of all grain too.

If you lost half a gallon to the grain in your mash, and boiled of another full gallon, you would be close to diluting your wort by half. If the extraction was off a few points to start with, diluting it to six gallons from approximately three and a half makes your numbers make sense. In other words, your wort was probably close to your target gravity before you diluted.

Next time start with a larger boil and more grain or just do smaller batches.
 
So putting all the increidents into beersmith, I think my ideal amount of water would have been 4.25 gallons.

Guess I should have googled this before just following a recipe book word for word. :mug:

beer.jpg
 
arictaylor said:
How did it taste? haha

Shouldn I dump and start over?

Fortunately, I had some extra light dme from starters, so after it was in the car boy, I racked off a gallon, brought it back to a boil and added enough dme to get it close to the og I needed. After boiling ten minutes, I cooled and added it back to the fermenter. The beer actually came out great. Not sure when this was brewed, but doing something similar might save your beer.

I have brewed my pale ale two more times since. The second time I had no issues and hit all my numbers spot on because I did not dilute it. Last time I was off again but it was an efficiency issue as I am still learning my brew in a bag system.

Good luck
 
A couple points, right off the top of my head (more may come to me with more thought):

Your strike water volume was a little on the low side. In US units (I'll try to provide metric conversions, but make no promises for my math!), you typically want 1-2qts/lb of grain (if my math is right, that looks like roughly 2-4lt/kg?), and after I double checked your conversions it looks like you have just barely 1. I usually shoot for 1.25qts/lb (2.6lt/kg), which leaves me room to add some boiling water halfway through the mash to boost temperature if I lose any (which definitely happens this time of year in Connecticut!).

As for sparging - I've never heard of sparging with your wort before. The whole idea of sparging is to rinse any residual sugars out of the grain bed that didn't come out when you drained out your first runnings. It's possible (this is a wild guess here, smarter folks than I will probably refute this, and I'd welcome their insight!) that sparging with your wort could actually leave behind some of the sugars that you extracted in your first runnings back in the grain bed. In short, don't do that anymore! ;)

I also notice that your strike volume and your sparge volume only add up to 5 gallons. This is a big reason for your leaving behind sugars in your grain bed - possibly the biggest. I assume you know your boil-off rate from previous extract brews, correct? What you should do, to calculate your sparge volume, is look at the volume you get from your first runnings. That will never equal your strike volume, since your grains absorb a LOT of that water (I forget the exact proportion, but I want to say it's somewhere around 25-35%). Anyway, measure the volume of your first runnings. What you want in your brew kettle is your intended final volume PLUS your boil off amount. So, say you want to wind up with 6 gallons in the kettle (most of us to it that way - figure half a gallon to trub loss, 5.5 gallons into the fermenter), and you know you boil off 1 gallon in an hour (just to make it a round number). That means you need a total of 7 gallons. And say your first runnings leave you with 2 gallons in the kettle. 7 (your intended kettle volume) minus 2 (your first runnings volume) is 5 gallons, which is the volume you should sparge with.

Now, you're still a little hazy on your sparging technique - but I'm going to assume based on your description that you're doing what's called a batch sparge. That's where you drain the mash tun of it's first runnings, then add all the sparge water in one batch (oftentimes broken up into multiple batches), and drain that off again. I almost always break my sparge into two batches. So in the example above, I'd probably split it up evenly into two 2.5 gallon sparges.

Another important element is stirring. You did say you stirred at the beginning of the mash to avoid doughballs, and that's a good thing. But is that the only time you stirred? I typically stir again halfway through the mash, and I always stir during each batch sparge. Stirring during the mash probably isn't strictly necessary, but during a batch sparge it's absolutely crucial in order to get the water evenly distributed and to get the whole grainbed rinsed evenly.

So, I think if you mash with just a little more water, sparge with the right volume of water, and make sure you stir when you sparge, you should see a big improvement.
 
There are dilution calculators online which might help figure out how much dme to add. It's basically the formula:

Gravity1 * volume1 = gravity2 * volume2
 
Awesome. Thanks so much for your tips.

It was my first attempt at this, so I sticked to the recipe book without using my own brain.

I did not re-stir the mash because the author of the book said he didn't recommend it...

All things I will learn in time. With the next batch :)
 
Ok... in other units....

8 lbs pale malt
8 oz carapils
8 oz caramunich

added to 2.5 gallons of water at 167F in mash tun. Stirred. Sat for 1 hour.

Drained mash tun into bucket then poured it back into mash tun. Drained again.

Then poured 2.5 gallons of hot water (175F) over mash tun with a watering can.

Boiled malt for 1 hour. Adding in:
1 oz northern brewer
1/2 oz fuggles and goldings

Topped up to 6 gallons and let cool to 68 degres.

Gravity reading at this point 1025.

How big of a pot do you have? How much did you end up boiling?

You did less than 1.25 quarts / lb. So if you then diluted it with water at the end, that is the issue. There is a good chance your gravity was ok, but then when you added the water to top it off, you diluted it down to that lower gravity. If you need to do this, since you have a smaller pot, you need to up the grain bill, or add some sugar, dme, or lme to raise the gravity.
 
Yea. I think the real problem orginated with me/the book not being clear. I know now I added way to much make up water at the end. aka not sparging enough, or boiling enough.

Guess this all means I just get to try again!
 
Also, normally for 5 gallon batches I shoot for around 11 - 12 lbs of grain.
 
Alright. I tired batch number 2 having read everyones thoughts. The results were better, but still off the mark.

Knowing the amount of detail you guys like now to help out, I recorded some detailed notes.

I was attempting to end up with a batch of 5 gallons.

1. I added my 9lbs of grains to 11.5 quarts of water (167F). Temperature after adding the grains was 157F.

2. Stirred and then left it for 1 one.

3. Drained the mash. (I got 6.5 quarts out)

3. Bulk sparged with 17 quarts of water at 176F.b. I did this 8.5 quarts at time, this time stirring.

4. I ended up with 6 gallons for boiling.

5. Boiled for 1 hour.



OG test 1035. Target was 1049.

I ran the recipe through beersmith2 and the numbers came out hang on what they were supposed to be (1049).

Thoughts?

Thanks guys - this is proving to be a challenge that I hope is rewarding after a few more trials!
 
Thanks guys - this is proving to be a challenge that I hope is rewarding after a few more trials!

I suggest working on the fineness of your crush. next time take a close up picture of it and we will tell if its to course. the gap on my mill is very tight. less the the thickness of a credit card. theres a saying "crush it till your scared" i routinely hit about 75% mash eff and have set up beersmith accordingly to meet my system. i looked at your pict of beersmith, what is the total eff (brewhouse eff) on your design screen. it will be just below batch size. it looks as if you have it set at 75 try lowering it to 70/65.
 
I would also bump up the grain bill a little. On your first mash in, you did 1.28 quarts / lbs of grain. Adding another 1lb of grain may help. Try doing your 1st batch sparge with the same amount of water you did you mash in with. Then if you need more, you can do a 2nd batch sparge. Also, you can stir in the first batch sparge, let it sit for 10 minutes and then vourlaf.
 
A mash temp of 157 is a little bit on the high side - not enough to cost you gravity point, but definitely enough to leave you with a bigger bodied beer and a slightly lower alcohol beer. Great if that's what you're going for, not so much if that's not what you're going for.

What are you using as a mash tun? A cooler, or another pot?

To be perfectly honest, it sounds like your process was pretty much right this time, with the possible exception of the higher mash temp. I'm with Glynn at this point, and I'd want to look closer now at the crush of the grain. What you want to see is a lot of flour, or at least lots of very small pieces of the kernel of the grain, but intact husks. The husks will serve to form the filter bed that you drain your runnings through, and that's how you draw off clear wort from the mash tun, while the flour or very small pieces gives you lots of surface area for mashing to actually occur - basically for the enzymes to be able to soak in and get at the sugars and starches and do all the conversion they're supposed to be doing.
 
As for sparging - I've never heard of sparging with your wort before. The whole idea of sparging is to rinse any residual sugars out of the grain bed that didn't come out when you drained out your first runnings. It's possible (this is a wild guess here, smarter folks than I will probably refute this, and I'd welcome their insight!) that sparging with your wort could actually leave behind some of the sugars that you extracted in your first runnings back in the grain bed. In short, don't do that anymore! ;)

I think that the OP may have been confused by some advice given in by most homebrewing books. As you may know, the first runnings off of a mash are generally thick and cloudy with suspended grist, which if left in the wort can lead to haze and astringency. Thus, between mash-out and sparge, you generally want to re-circulate the wort a bit, a process called the vorlauf. I'm guessing that arictaylor either confused this step - which is usually only applied to the first 10 liters or so of run-off, 1 liter at a time, as the grain bed begins to settle - with sparging itself (which involves a slow addition of new water at just below mash-out temperature, to rinse the grains), or else lost track of things while in the middle and forgot to sparge. That's just supposition though.

arictaylor: Does any of this seem familiar to you? Could you explain what went on at this point a bit better, please?
 
10 liters to vorlauf? That's an awfully large volume - but I suppose it depends on if you're using a false bottom, bazooka screen, etc... I use a bazooka screen, and I typically get clear runnings after vorlaufing about 1.5 quarts, or pretty close to 1.5 liters. 10 would obviously accomplish the same task, but be a huge time waster...
 
Hmmn, you may have a point, there, though I tend to be conservative on these matters and spend extra time on them. Also, with the false bottom I'm using, I may be getting more grits than you are.
 
you generally want to re-circulate the wort a bit, a process called the vorlauf - which is usually only applied to the first 10 liters or so of run-off

10 liters???

Are we supposed to be vorlaufing 10 liters of first runnings? I've only been drawing off a quart or two before deeming the wort "clear" and starting to draw the runnings while pouring the quart or two of vorlaufed wort back into the mash tun.

Am I drastically shortcutting my vorlauf? Do you guys all seriously stand there draining and pouring up to 10 liters of wort before you start draining into your boil kettle?
 
I generally only have to do a couple of liters, I have never had to do 10.
 
Volumes aside, Schol-R-Lea does have a good point - it is possible that arictaylor was confusing vorlaufing with sparging, and that may indeed explain that part of his original sparge. Depending on what instructions he was going by, I could see that mistake being made very easily.
 
Glynn, my efficieny in beersmith was at 72%. I adjusted it to 65, and it calculated init gravity of 1042. I then bumped up my grain 1lb, and got it back to 1049. So the recipe I am using could use a bit more next time!

stratslinger, I am using a self made mashtun made out of a cooler.

Do any of you have a picture of what you crushed grain looks like? I think this is where my last big problem is. At the stoor, as I was putting the grains through the mill, I was not happy with the results so I put everything through again. The end result is not what you describe (flour like). A picture would be awesome if one of you have handy.

So steps for next time - more grain, better crushed crain, and a lower mash temp.

Thanks again for all the input!
 
It should not look like flour, but the grains should be cracked open.
 
Agreed. As I understand it, the ideal crush is one that has two properties: a) the hulls have been separated from the kernels intact (or nearly so), and b) the kernels are broken open just enough to expose a maximum amount of starch while producing a minimum amount of loose powder. The reason for A is because you will, in most cases, be relying on the hulls to to form the grain bed that you then filter the sugar solution through during vorlauf and sparging (this is less critical with BIAB, but still a factor). The reason for B is that you want to expose the starches in place to the enzymes, so that they go into solution as sugars rather than being suspended as starches (which can gum up the sparge, causing it to stick).

Does your cooler use a manifold, a braid, or a false bottom? Each of these approaches has advantages and disadvantages, and you'll need to take the type into consideration when running the sparge. Also, even with batch sparging, you want to run the sparge rather slowly, maybe a liter per minute, in order to reduce the compaction of the grain bed. You want to refill the tun equally slowly when you add the water for the second runnings, for the same reason, even if you are going to stir it before running off.

I personally do a fly sparge, using a grant and a 1qt. Pyrex measuring cup. I set the cooler spigot to flow into the grant at just below a quart per minute (about 0.9 L/min., I would say), and take turns filling the measuring cup from the HLT and carefully floating the water into the top of MLT, then filling the cup from the grant to add to the boiler. It's a slow and painstaking procedure, and I've made my mistakes with it in the past, but it does work fairly well for me.
 
This sounds like a silly question, but are u from the uk?
Something sounds off by I may have some information that may help a little if u are from the uk
 
My question to you is, what kind of strainer are you using in tun? If you are using a braid, your style of sparging could be getting a lot of channeling. You would be better off doing a batch sparge if you don't have a false bottom or manifold.
 
If I punch your grain bill into a calculator like brewersfriend, you would need 90% brewhouse efficiency to hit your target SG which is not realistic. It looks like your actual efficiency was <50%

Your mash was also pretty thick, try 1.5 qt water per pound of grain and make sure you are holding temp for 60 minutes for good conversion.
 
This sounds like a silly question, but are u from the uk?
Something sounds off by I may have some information that may help a little if u are from the uk

I think you're right.

9 lbs grain with an average extract of 36 points per lb per US Gallon yields would give a gravity of 1.049 at an efficiency of 75% when making 5 US Gallons or 19 liters, but he stated 23 liters which is ~5 Imperial Gallons

arictaylor, you need to realize that the recipe is using US gallons which is only 0.8327 times the size of an imperial gallon.

-a.
 
I can confirm that sparging with your wort actually lowers the gravity of the wort. I lost .006 when I tried it. Not much, but significant.
 
I think you're right.

9 lbs grain with an average extract of 36 points per lb per US Gallon yields would give a gravity of 1.049 at an efficiency of 75% when making 5 US Gallons or 19 liters, but he stated 23 liters which is ~5 Imperial Gallons

arictaylor, you need to realize that the recipe is using US gallons which is only 0.8327 times the size of an imperial gallon.

-a.

+1
I was about to say the same thing.
I had this exact same problem, I brew 5 imperial gallon but all the calculators presume im working with 5 US gallons, which means my gravity is way off, just adjust your calculator to 6 gallons and your problem will most likely be solved.

:mug:
 
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