using lager yeast

could someone tell me what would happen if i used a lager yeast in a red ale recipe.but fermment in a cold basement of about 40-50 degrees.i would ferment in 2 stages for about 4 weeks.would it be like a red ale but only smoother?
thanks

It would be a red lager. . . smoother, crisper than an ale. Less estery (probably) if you do it right. Depending on your lager strain, I'd recommend a diacetyl rest after the primary unless you really like butterscotch.

Let us know how it turns out.

it would still be ok even by just fermenting for a month in an uncontrolled but cold enviroment?a diacetyl rest after the primary? im not sure what u mean.

Here's what I do for my lagers (a beer made with lager yeast)--

pitch the yeast/starter, then let the whole thing sit at room temp until it really starts to ferment. Then move it to your lagering "cellar." Keep it there until your airlock pretty much stops (you want a little activity since the "diacetyl rest" needs active yeast). Then move your fermenter back up to room temperature for the next 24-48 hours to have your diacetyl rest. The remaining active yeast will scrub the diacetyl left in your beer (the thing that gives butterscotch flavor). After the diacetyl rest, rack to secondary, then move it back to your "lagering cellar." Some darker beers should be "lagered" at just above freezing, and a gradual reduction in temperature would be ideal, however, if you have a naturally cold cellar, then you will be just fine.


Hope that helps. That's the down and dirty, reader's digest version of lagering.

Ok just a small change from what Biermann said.

Pitch your yeast at cold fermenting temps so as to avoid the ester and fussel alcohols that you get when you start a lager at warm temps. the yeast also should be at the tempertures of fermentation and you should pitch a lot of it. areate the dickens out of it also as lager yeast need a lot of o2 to ferment out.

Lager all beer at as close to freezing as you can get for 1 to 2 months or as long as you can resist the urge to drink it.
Making lager isn't hard. Making a good lager takes time and effort, but it is worth it.

Lagers are also best if you use softer water (not "water-softener water"). I usually buy water for lager production, and I can tweak the profile as needed.

The aeration thing is very important, especially in heavier gravity beers. In fact, the last lager I made, I used an O2 bottle and a diffusion stone to get it aerated. Pitching rate is also important.

As for the cool/warm start thing. . . I just like to see a little airlock activity before I shove it in the fridge. I guess it doesn't really matter, its just a safety blanket for me. :cross:

I always laugh when I see people talking about starting a lager fermentation at room temp.

Do you think the yeast will not ferment at cold temps? It is a lager yeast. They are made for fermenting in cold temps.....why would you think that you need to start them at temps that are above their optimum temp range. That will cause the yeast to produce fusil alcohols and esters.

Just as you would do for an ale yeast....you need to cool the wort to a temp that is in your yeast's optimum temp range. If you do not know what that is....look it up!


The diacetyl rest is nothing to forget about or skip. You should always raise and lower temperatures by only 5 degrees per day. You do not want to shock your yeast, but fast temp changes affect flavor, so you want to avoid them.


Lagering takes time. Lagers have a cleaner, less intense flavor, than ales, so you want to make sure you do everything right because you have less flavor to mask mistakes. If you ferment an ale at higher than normal temps, you may be alright because the flavor is more suited to hide off-flavors.

A diacetyl rest isn't needed for all lager yeasts. It don't hurt to do one, just that it may not be nesessary. WY2308 usually needs one and I'll do one for this yeast, but for the rest, use your nose during primary ferment. If I smell a lot of sulphur in my fridge, then i do a rest.

I have used WY 2308, 2272, 2278, and saflager S-23 for lagers and only needed a rest for the 2308.

thanks guys u have been a great help. heres my next question.
ive done everything we just talked about.its 4 or 5 weeks later,time to bottle
1-do i raise the temp back up to room temp
2-prime it then add more yeast
3-carb at room temp?or cold condition it
4-how long for best carbonation

dougjones31 said:

I always laugh when I see people talking about starting a lager fermentation at room temp.

Do you think the yeast will not ferment at cold temps? It is a lager yeast. They are made for fermenting in cold temps.....why would you think that you need to start them at temps that are above their optimum temp range. That will cause the yeast to produce fusil alcohols and esters.

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Well, it's nice to finally meet a brewer that knows everything and is comfortable enough with his knowledge to be able to laugh at others.

Have a read of this from the Wyeast site (scroll most of the way down the page)

http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm#pac

or just read the following cut and paste:



To pitch the yeast: clean the container or package with sanitizing solution. Shake well. Open, and pour the yeast into the fermenter.


Aerate well by stirring vigorously. Seal fermenter with airlock. Keep at 75º F until fermentation begins. Then cool to desired temperature. Signs of fermentation should be evident within one day, depending on yeast strain, brewing procedures, and fermentation temperatures.


FERMENTATION TEMPERATURE RANGE
Ale yeast 60-72 º F; Lager yeast 46-58º F.


Why not email them at [email protected] so you can laugh at them directly?


Before that, have a read on the FAQ page where it talks about deliberately fermenting a beer at room temperatures with lager yeast.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs/faqmain.htm

word bro. :fro:

I agree Mikey, every book and recipe I've read says to start at room temp until fermentation is started(usually 12-24 hrs) then move to lagering temps. I always assumed that they knew more than me so That's how I've always done it. Never had a problem. Also, I always heard that fusil alcohols escape during the boil and that is one of the reasons you should not cover the brewpot when boiling. Just my $.02

Mikey said:

Well, it's nice to finally meet a brewer that knows everything and is comfortable enough with his knowledge to be able to laugh at others.

Have a read of this from the Wyeast site (scroll most of the way down the page)

http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm#pac

or just read the following cut and paste:



To pitch the yeast: clean the container or package with sanitizing solution. Shake well. Open, and pour the yeast into the fermenter.


Aerate well by stirring vigorously. Seal fermenter with airlock. Keep at 75º F until fermentation begins. Then cool to desired temperature. Signs of fermentation should be evident within one day, depending on yeast strain, brewing procedures, and fermentation temperatures.


FERMENTATION TEMPERATURE RANGE
Ale yeast 60-72 º F; Lager yeast 46-58º F.


Why not email them at [email protected] so you can laugh at them directly?


Before that, have a read on the FAQ page where it talks about deliberately fermenting a beer at room temperatures with lager yeast.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs/faqmain.htm

Click to expand...

I'm not laughing at anyone but you are quoting a yeast supplier who don't provide the optimun amount of yeast to pitch to a lager and so need the warm temps to grow a lot of yeast in a hurry. In New Brewing Lager Beer by Noonan he says to pitch fermentation temp yeast into fermentation temp wort. It's not only him that says this. I kinda like to think these are experts in beer brewing and do know what they are talking about.

Try Fix in Principals of Brewing Science, Papazian and Palmer.

boo boo said:

I'm not laughing at anyone but you are quoting a yeast supplier who don't provide the optimun amount of yeast to pitch to a lager and so need the warm temps to grow a lot of yeast in a hurry. In New Brewing Lager Beer by Noonan he says to pitch fermentation temp yeast into fermentation temp wort. It's not only him that says this. I kinda like to think these are experts in beer brewing and do know what they are talking about.

Try Fix in Principals of Brewing Science, Papazian and Palmer.

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If you read the full text provided by the link, it first gives instructions on how to step up the yeast to make a full volume stater. The paragraph I cut and pasted follows that, and assumes that a full starter is already available.

I know Greg Noonan and have discussed this and other things with him during visits to his brewpub. His view point is that you 'can' do it one way, but not you 'must' do it one way. There's a big difference.

Many of us prefer to start a lager at room temperature to avoid the long lag time. I've been doing it for years and have never had a beer contaminated by fusel alchohols and with any hint of unsuitable esters.

Maybe I should start a post stating that I laugh at people who try to get a fermentation going at 50*F because the long lead tiimes leads to contamination. :fro:

Round 3: Ding! Ding!

Ok now that we got that straightened out. Can I ask of you experts advice on Steam Beer.

Will I get a good tasting brew using Lager yeast at ale temps? - I read the FAQ provided in previous posts but the conclusion was that you will get a fruity tasting beer and fermentation but not as good.

Can you all elaborate? I read historys on California Commons and havea desire to brew my next batch. Some advice in yeast would be greatly appreciated.

- WW

Wilson,

As I don't have the infrastructure to do a true lager, I made a 'Steamaibock' on my very first brewing session.

It turned out quite well (and it gets better with a couple months of bottle conditioning); you can certainly tell that it h'aint a lager by the subtle fruity notes, but it's still a very good beer. Just not as clean or crisp as it would be if I had lagered it. But remember, the fruity notes are very subtle, it's not a "fruity-tasting beer" by any stretch. Go for it. RDWHAHB.

dougjones got PWNED!

You guys are a trip.

OF course you can brew a beer at many different temps and get many different outcomes. That is how different beers were discovered.

Fermenting Lager Yeast at ale temps is only accomplished by using special strains of yeast that have the ability to ferment semi-clean at high temps. Otherwise it would be a mess.

White Labs is not the know-all of brewing. Yes, they suggest pitching at 75 degrees. But they are also a business who wants to keep the complaints down to a minimum. They want fermentations to happen quickly and strong. So they advise the people to start off the lagers at a high temp so that they take off. If you think about it you can see their reasoning, but it does not make them right.

Will it work? Yes. Will it be the best beer you can make? No. But they do not care. Most homebrewers encounter off-tastes frequently so White-labs knows that the homebrewers will not blame their pitching temp as the cause of any off-tastes.

Pitching a lager yeast @ 75 degrees will make fusel alcohols and esters. Now the amount of it that it will make is going to vary by the ingredients and brewing/prep process. In the end it will probably only be a small amount, but it will affect flavor.

Will it make it undrinkable....probably not, but I strive to make the best beer I can, so I avoid things that I know will cause little problems that can become big ones.


You could brew a lager @ 105 degrees in July, and it may turn out to be a wonderful new type of ale that is unique and everyone loves, But the odds are very slim.

You can do whatever you want while brewing beer. If the end product makes you happy then have at it. I surmise that you must take the advice of hundreds of years of brewmeisters if you want to succeed in making good beer.

But a blind hog does find an acorn every once in a while.

2nd Street Brewery said:

I agree Mikey, every book and recipe I've read says to start at room temp until fermentation is started(usually 12-24 hrs) then move to lagering temps. I always assumed that they knew more than me so That's how I've always done it. Never had a problem. Also, I always heard that fusil alcohols escape during the boil and that is one of the reasons you should not cover the brewpot when boiling. Just my $.02

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Fusel alcohol or alcohol of any type is not formed until after yeast is introduced so it cannot escape during the boil. What you are refering to is dimethyl sulfide which contributes a cooked cabbage or corn-like flavor to the beer. This is boiled off during the wort boil. SO you should always boil your wort with the lid off!

Mikey said:

Many of us prefer to start a lager at room temperature to avoid the long lag time. I've been doing it for years and have never had a beer contaminated by fusel alchohols and with any hint of unsuitable esters.

Maybe I should start a post stating that I laugh at people who try to get a fermentation going at 50*F because the long lead tiimes leads to contamination. :fro:

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You may not taste the fusel alcohol or esters but they are there in varying amounts. Your beer would taste cleaner if you pitched at lower temps. You should try it and see.

Long lead times are not a problem if you pitch sufficient yeast and contamination is not a problem during lag times if your fermenter is sealed and your brewing process is sanitary.

My lag time is OK with being pitched at 50f. I say 3 hours is OK anyway.
If you make a starter that is what is required for proper pitching, then the lag time is normal.

But hey, if you think and your friends think you make great beer, then who am I to say different.

All i say is that you could be potentially making better beer.

dougjones31 said:

I would say your $.02 is really worth -$.20

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dougjones31 said:

So we discover that you do not know as much as you think either.

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Come on dude, no need for that. That is the kind of thing you see on the other sites.

I agree. Sorry.

But I was insulted at their disregard of my info and actual attacks on me.

boo boo....you da man! Somebody does understand!

boo boo said:

All i say is that you could be potentially making better beer.

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We should all take information and look at it rationally. It is common sense that pitching yeast at temps above the yeast's optimum temp range is not the right thing to do.

We should not get caught up saying I do it and I have not had any problems. Well , you do not own your own full scale brewery and brew beer for your livelyhood either.


The goal here is to brew the best beer possible by sharing knowledge and experiences.

Good Lord. . . I think eveyone needs to RDWAHAHB. SHEEeesh.

Quit with the freakin' posturing.

Share knowledge without being IN-YOUR-FACE about it.

I will take one of those Lagers that was fermented at room temp please.....

Mikey said:

Well, it's nice to finally meet a brewer that knows everything and is comfortable enough with his knowledge to be able to laugh at others.

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Indeed. People who think they know everything are REALLY annoying to those of us who actually DO.

-walker

Dang.....that is a good one!:rockin:


But it is usually time to stop using a phrase when they start putting it on t-shirts. That one has been on t-shirts for about 3 years now.

dougjones31 said:

Dang.....that is a good one!:rockin:


But it is usually time to stop using a phrase when they start putting it on t-shirts. That one has been on t-shirts for about 3 years now.

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Ok. I'll make a note of that, cool guy.

-walker

I am thinking that you could start a lager fermentation in this thread, judging by the frostiness of the posts.

Or is it still too warm?

Walker-san said:

Ok. I'll make a note of that, cool guy.

-walker

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Ok....I will cut you a break. I was a little hard on you. I just noticed that you live in Cary, NC. That hick town is about 10 years behind on everything so you probably have not seen the t-shirts yet.

dougjones31 said:

Ok....I will cut you a break. I was a little hard on you. I just noticed that you live in Cary, NC. That hick town is about 10 years behind on everything so you probably have not seen the t-shirts yet.

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Wow, you're good. I bow to you.

By the way, keep that attitude up. You'll have lots of friends around here soon.

-walker

It's a joke man.....relax. I live in a little hick town about 2 hours south of you.

dougjones31 said:

It's a joke man.....relax.

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yeah. ok.

-walker

Where's a mod? I'm thinking it would be a good idea to get this thread closed PDQ.

dougjones31 said:

Ok....I will cut you a break. I was a little hard on you. I just noticed that you live in Cary, NC. That hick town is about 10 years behind on everything so you probably have not seen the t-shirts yet.

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Keep it up, smarty.