F the BS! HD 5500 BK element Myth Busting

So, another thread had brought up the high density high wattage elements may cause scorching. Well, I was at home depot and found a 5500W HD element for $13. I figured screw it, let's try it.

So, I replaced my 4500 ULWD element with it. Testing the system for leaks now. What I can tell you is this thing is much louder than my old element and heats pretty damn fast. 6.75 gallons from 100 to boiling just at a half hour.

Back to the experiment. I think I am going to brew a batch of Ed's Pale Ale and see how it turns out.

attached is the 4.5kW element next to the 5.5kW element and a pic of the 5.5kW installed. I kind of like the smaller one, the ULWD just touched my pick up at the bottom of the BK.

Get it done CR and you avatar is amazing. every time i look at it all i think is.....

Don't Tell Me Devil Woman!!!!!!!

Good job Code Rage! I know you and I both have participated in threads where the scortching issue with a High Density Element came up. It is cool to see a real world experiment finally test the myth. You are a home brewing myth buster.

Maybe you should start with a porter...
I have only had scorching once. I did two 35 gallon batches of IPA back to back and did not clean the elements in between batches. I sprayed them down with a garden hose and that was it. I got a small amount of scorching during the second batch. You can't taste it in the beer - there was just some scorch on the elements. I have used both LWD and ULWD incoloy heating elements. No problems with either. I even make a single malt pilsener that is paler than pale.
I am anxious to see if you have any scorching. Personally, I am betting that you will not.
What is the HWD element made of? I like the incoloy because there is nothing to flake off into the wort. Chrome plated would worry me a bit.

Why do you suggest a porter? I thought something fairly light and not bitter would expose any problems with scorching or extra caramelization.

I usually CIP with some oxyclean at 170 and give it a good rinse. The chrome element in my RIMS seemed to fair okay. I replaced that element with a 1500W element last night. The original element wasn't pretty but I had never noticed any off flavors in the final product.

So my personal prediction will be that everything will be okay.

+1 to doing something light, like a blonde. Did you replace your RIMS element with a HD one as well? The 5500w one in the BK looks like it's chrome plated, so cleanup should be pretty easy...and scorching of "residuals" should be minimal, right?

Yeah, the RIMS got a 1500W HWD 240v element too.

Before I was running a 4500 LWD 240v element at 120V which made it 4xLWD. Not sure about cleaning the element. I am going to do what I was doing before except trade oxyclean for PBW.

If it DOES scorch the wort, would this find a place in a dedicated Scottish Shilling boil kettle...

I was joking. If you scorched a porter, it would still be drinkable. Get it? ;-)
Seriously, if you scorch, you will find it on the elements when you are cleaning them but you will likely not see or taste it in the beer. I clearly had scorched protein on my elements but never tasted it in the beer.

gotcha! A little tired this morning and slow on the uptake.

I noticed the same thing on my RIMS element.

CodeRage said:

attached is the 4.5kW element next to the 5.5kW element and a pic of the 5.5kW installed. I kind of like the smaller one, the ULWD just touched my pick up at the bottom of the BK.

Click to expand...

Isn't that a LWD element? Looks pretty similar to mine. Maybe I picked up the wrong thing (don't have the packaging any more), but I've never had issues - as I drink a very, very light cream ale...

The wavey one is the Ultra Low, the short straight one is the High Density. It's only about 10 inches long. Some 4500 LD are of the straight variety but they are a bit longer.

Good on ya CR, I will be interested in seeing your results.

Very interested in how this turns out, but a quick question. Is this just to save some space or have less element to clean? I wouldn't think it would affect the heating rate. Watts is watts, right?

Edit: Ah, sorry, didn't read this was in response to another thread.

You've piqued my interest for sure. The best test would be to mash a 10 gallon, but split the resulting wort in half and do a 5g batch on one element and a 5g batch on the other element. That would make for a very objective test (only one variable).

I think the ripple elements are gnarley looking, though. Kinda like them.

passedpawn said:

You've piqued my interest for sure. The best test would be to mash a 10 gallon, but split the resulting wort in half and do a 5g batch on one element and a 5g batch on the other element. That would make for a very objective test (only one variable).

I think the ripple elements are gnarley looking, though. Kinda like them.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it would be, problem is I have to replace the element in the middle of a batch. I usually do a few dry test runs between batches to make sure there are no leaks when I change any of the plumbing. Right now I am looking to debunk or prove that a HWD element will have a big impact or possibly ruin a brew session. Maybe do the subtle difference comparison down the road.

Let me tell you something about those wave elements. You get a good rolling boil going it will cause the wort to slosh side to side. You can tell the brew rig is shifting weight back and forth but not really rocking. The straight element hasn't done this on my test runs.

Yes, my old ULWD RIPP element would get my entire rig rocking back and forth during the boil!

The Pol said:

Yes, my old ULWD RIPP element would get my entire rig rocking back and forth during the boil!

Click to expand...

Yoop, you catch that? Might want to chock the wheels and extend the outriggers before you get started!

My BK sits flat on the ground, so I've never noticed any movement.

passedpawn said:

Yoop, you catch that? Might want to chock the wheels and extend the outriggers before you get started!

My BK sits flat on the ground, so I've never noticed any movement.

Click to expand...

When the brew rig is rockin' dont bother knockin'!

Any word on this?

Have got some Ed's Pale Ale a week into fermenting The mash didn't go well (low temps) but You should still be able to detect any scorching if there is any. I may pull a sample tonight or tomorrow when I transfer to a secondary.

CodeRage said:

Have got some Ed's Pale Ale a week into fermenting The mash didn't go well (low temps) but You should still be able to detect any scorching if there is any. I may pull a sample tonight or tomorrow when I transfer to a secondary.

Click to expand...

So, there was nothing noticeable in the BK huh? Nice work sir.

Question:
I am stuck with 110 VAC. Last night I ran tests on my prototype RIMS. I used a 1500 ULWD element in my RIMS and an aditional 1500 watt element (on another circuit) to bring the temp of 4 gallons of water up. After I removed the second heat stick the temperature steadily fell.

The ULWD element couldnt provide enough heat to offset the heat loss in the system. I am using a Blichmann MT with no lid on, no insulation on my RIMS, 8'' or so of thick walled silicon tubing, ambient temp was 68.

Well I realized I made a $20 mistake, so I am going to switch out the element. Should I go with a 1500 LWD element or HD element?

I am looking forward to seeing your results on the caramelization.

TimWeber said:

Question:
Well I realized I made a $20 mistake, so I am going to switch out the element. Should I go with a 1500 LWD element or HD element?

Click to expand...

An HD won't heat your kettle any faster than the ULWD. And, the jury is still out on carmelization with HD elements. It's looking like the mythbusters are about to conclude there is no carmelization. Go with the HD if you like the plating and/or the form factor better than the much longer ULWD.

I sorta wish there WAS carmelization from the HD elements. I'd figure out a way to make the elements removeable and use the HD element for scottish ales. Cool.

Sorry off topic!

I am using it in my RIMS to control my MT temp. Propane for my kettle.

Could someone recommend an element to use on 110VAC? I am using an ULWD element, if I use a different density element will it add more heat? My thoughts are yes, since it will heat the moving liquid faster. Or could I use an element rated for 220VAC, but then only supply 110VAC?

TimWeber said:

Sorry off topic!

I am using it in my RIMS to control my MT temp. Propane for my kettle.

Could someone recommend an element to use on 110VAC if I a different density element will not add more heat? Could I use an element rated for 220VAC but then only supply 110VAC?

Click to expand...

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html#tiny

Have a look at 120-1500-ELD or 120-1500-LD. They are 1500 watt 120 volt elements. I use the low density version in my RIMS.

Sawdustguy
I purchased the 120-1500-ELD Element, which is not working.

If I use a 120-1500-LD do you think that will provide enough heat?

TimWeber said:

Sawdustguy
I purchased the 120-1500-ELD Element, which is not working.

If I use a 120-1500-LD do you think that will provide enough heat?

Click to expand...

No, the change in Watt Density doesnt affect how much power you are putting into the wort. It's the same amount of power over a different surface area.

You have 2 choices, insulate better or add more power. From what I've read it takes about 2 to 3kW to get 5 gal to maintain a boil.

Hey CR, slightly off topic: how is the element attached to the kettle? I was thinking about having a 1" NPT nut welded on, but yours doesn't quite look like that.

Thanks,

-Joe

nostalgia said:

Hey CR, slightly off topic: how is the element attached to the kettle? I was thinking about having a 1" NPT nut welded on, but yours doesn't quite look like that.

Thanks,

-Joe

Click to expand...

No problem.
I have a 1" NPT stainless nut and silicone o-ring from bargainfittings.com. It works well and doesn't leak. I believe that in the near future I am going to replace all of my weldless fittings with silver soldered couplers.

Sorry again that this is off topic.

CodeRage I am just trying to maintain my mash temp at 154 with the element in a RIMS heat exchanger. I am pumping the liquid slowly from the mash tun, though the HEX and back to the top of the MT. I am basing my system on the Brewmagic, similar to sawdustguys build. Without insulating, how can I maintain my mash temps.

My thought, a higher density element, LD as opposed to ELD, will heat the RIMS faster allowing me to maintain my temp. It won't supply more heat, it will just supply the same amount of heat faster to the stream of moving liquid.

If a LD element will work I'll go with that.

Holy crap I never even considered doing it weldless. Brilliant! Glad I came by

-Joe

CodeRage said:

No, the change in Watt Density doesnt affect how much power you are putting into the wort. It's the same amount of power over a different surface area.

You have 2 choices, insulate better or add more power. From what I've read it takes about 2 to 3kW to get 5 gal to maintain a boil.

Click to expand...

I don't think he is trying to maintain a boil. He is simply trying to maintain Mash temperatures.

TimWeber said:

Sawdustguy
I purchased the 120-1500-ELD Element, which is not working.

If I use a 120-1500-LD do you think that will provide enough heat?

Click to expand...

I don't understand this. The RIMS heater is not designed to heat water up to mash temperatures. You still need a HLT to heat up strike water to 170ish*. All the RIMS does is maintain your 150ish mash temperature and 1500 watts should be plenty of power to do that. Try the LD heater, but the ELD should work. The LD works great in my brewery.

The Pol said:

When the brew rig is rockin' dont bother knockin'!

Click to expand...

Oh, yeah, it was rocking! I almost had a boil over, in a 5 gallon batch!

I found that once I got it up to boiling, it only took 65% power to keep it at a boil the entire time.

LOVE it. It got up to a boil fast, and I know there is enough power there to easily boil a larger batch, if I ever want to use it for a 10 gallon batch.

TW, I've used a 1500 HWD element and a 1125 LWD element for my RIMS. They both worked well once I started to use a lid. It's amazing how much heat escapes through an open kettle. I would hit mash temps open the lid and watch my temps plummet with the element on. Slower flow rates help too. I also ended up putting 2 wraps of reflectix on it which helped stabilize the temps that much more.

In short. The water is going to absorb the heat coming off of the element as fast as the element can dish it. Watt Density isnt going to affect the transfer other than how hot the liquid located around the element gets in one pass, once it moves down the pipe all that stratification goes away as the super hot water blends with the cooler water.

I know for a fact in my system I have a lot of heat loss around the RIMS unit itself. I never insulated it because it was made of polished copper. If I ever go back to a smaller element I will insulate it. You may want to consider the same thing.
I've got an idea to mount the RIMS unit in the MLT to utilize the radiant heat wasted by an external HEX. SWMBO isn't too hot on building a new brewery so I'll let that idea mature for a while .

The nice thing about electric is the efficiency. 99% of the energy used is being put directly into the water. So we try to balance the amount of power needed to maintain temps but in order to do that you need to limit the heat loss in the rest of the system. Unless you have a glut of power with a bigger element or burner insulation is going to be a problem.

Edit- Sawdustguy, Yeah I don't know why I had a boil requirement stuck in my head. He did say RIMS. caught me half awake again.

CodeRage said:

TW, I've used a 1500 HWD element and a 1125 LWD element for my RIMS. They both worked well once I started to use a lid. It's amazing how much heat escapes through an open kettle. I would hit mash temps open the lid and watch my temps plummet with the element on. Slower flow rates help too. I also ended up putting 2 wraps of reflectix on it which helped stabilize the temps that much more.

In short. The water is going to absorb the heat coming off of the element as fast as the element can dish it. Watt Density isnt going to affect the transfer other than how hot the liquid located around the element gets in one pass, once it moves down the pipe all that stratification goes away as the super hot water blends with the cooler water.

I know for a fact in my system I have a lot of heat loss around the RIMS unit itself. I never insulated it because it was made of polished copper. If I ever go back to a smaller element I will insulate it. You may want to consider the same thing.
I've got an idea to mount the RIMS unit in the MLT to utilize the radiant heat wasted by an external HEX. SWMBO isn't too hot on building a new brewery so I'll let that idea mature for a while .

The nice thing about electric is the efficiency. 99% of the energy used is being put directly into the water. So we try to balance the amount of power needed to maintain temps but in order to do that you need to limit the heat loss in the rest of the system. Unless you have a glut of power with a bigger element or burner insulation is going to be a problem.

Click to expand...

Great point about the lid. This spring I am definitely insulating my MLT Keggle. I never believed how much heat was lost without the lid until I saw it first hand.

Here is a picture of my test rig. I am using this to prove my system before I buy a bunch of structual tubing.

Ignore the cooler. I heat my strike water using the HEX and propane. Not just the HEX. For these tests I used an aditional heat stick and had to wait an hour for the temp to reach 160F.

I have a blichmann autosparge, Ill try running the liquid though it instead of the additional copper pipe so that I can put my lid on. Ill try insulating the HEX. I don't really want to insulated my MT because its just so pretty! yeah I know that's a waste.

If there is no additional heating capacity between a ULWD and a HD element, what's the point of using a HD element? Cheeper? Takes up less space? If you already had the ULWD element why switch? Just to prove that it doesn't mater?

Thanks for your help, and letting my throw up a bit on your organized thread.

I am in the process of building a 5 gallon no-sparge RIMS system now. The RIMS has a 5500 watt HD element. Before anyone freaks out I am aware this is crazy. I already have some LD elements ordered. I have been testing and I can heat strike water from 60 to 150 in 40 minutes. Once the temp is reached the element fires occasionally at a rate of .1 sec during a 2 sec cycle time. I am going to try and run a batch through with this element. I am hoping that using a very very thin mash and a faster flow rate will reduce the risk of scorching. This is assuming I can actually pump fast enough without compacting the grain. Someone needs to try it. Once again I know this is crazy.

TW, no worries. The worry about the HD elements is that all that heat is being transfered over a very small area making it pretty concentrated. It has been speculated that this will cause burnt flavors and extra caramelization. On the Ed's Pale Ale I used a 4500W LWD for my RIMS and a 5500W HWD for my BK. My grain bed kept getting compacted and caused my recirculation to run at a trickle. Even still it didnt seem to impart any of flavors.

Now there is a problem with my layout being pump is between the temp probe and the HEX. So if my flow stops the HEX will get way too hot and start to boil the contents of the HEX. Depending on the water level in the MLT it behaves like a pressure cooker and gets super hot. This has happened once when I was preparing the system for a brew and it scorched what ever residue was in the HEX and it made for a pretty acrid odor.

I'll probably move the PA over to a secondary tonight. I'll update the thread with what I think of the 1 week sample.

Well, I think one week is really too soon to tell anything. I normally don't taste my beers at the one week mark. They usually go into a secondary and forgotten for 2 to 4 weeks.

My first impression is a very light slightly sweet caramel head followed by a punch of toast and biscuit and dry mouth feel with a touch of hop bitterness.
As far as color, well the turbidity throws it off a bit but it is a nice straw color, maybe a touch more on the orange side but it probably is too soon to tell.

Excuse my camera, it sucks...


So doing a bit of reading, when extract brewers have dumped L/DME in to the kettle and scorched the bottom, no one has reported a 'burnt' taste. In fact from what I can tell they all turned out to be fair brews. Though in these cases a slightly sweet beer may be expected because the scorching has created some unfermentable sugars. I don't believe I am experiencing this at all.

I used BMW's Recipe for Ed's Pale Ale if it make a difference.