Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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Conan stalled out at 1.019 on me. I think it was a later generation I captured and I had stepped it up 4-5 times before using it to ferment the batch it stalled out on. I will say that it flocc'd like a champ and left a surprisingly clear beer (until I added loads of dry hops of course) after stalling.
 
I got to 1.015 (78% attenuation) in a black IPA using Conan I harvested from cans in April. The same beer (separated into 2 primary buckets) got to 1.010 with WLP090.
 
My last conan beer stopped at 1.020 actually

I thought I was crazy reading all of these posts about Conan being a highly attenuating beast, and then having my fresh batch of ECY29 stall out at 1.020. It's good to see that I'm not the only one experiencing this issue.

I pitched at 65 and let it drift up to 67, where I held it at. I tried to get it to finish out by increasing the temp to 70 for several days, but I'm still at 1.020.
 
Mine was at 68 for 2-3 days then at about 66 for a week just now upstairs where it's a bit warmer ambient about 70-71 bc the family is leaving on vacation tomorrow so it's in the kitchen. My Conan was harvested from a batch canned in the first week of June. Checked it tonight when I moved it and it's at 1.014 from 1.071. It's been 10 days total fermenting I did swirl it on day 5 to wake it back up and again when I moved it upstairs. I hope it drops a few more points. Going to start cold crash on sunday morning them dry hopping. But so far I'm happy and the sample tasted good too!
 
After brewing 5 Zombie Dust clones, I'm ready to move on to another animal: Heady Topper. I'm going to scale up the malt bill a tad and shoot for a 6 gallon recipe. I'm basing it off of Vegan's 4.0 recipe. Of course, I'm not going to end up with a clone, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I have the typical limitations in that I can't get Conan and I can't get Pearl. I could order the Pearl at least, but I'm dead set on brewing in 6 days. The hopshot is already on it's way. I read through about 35 pages of this thread, but not all, so maybe these questions have been answered:

1) Best substitute for Conan? (Yes, I know it won't be a clone since Conan is so unique) I'm thinking s-04 as it's been my go-to yeast.

2) Straight up sub the Pearl with Maris Otter or some combination of U.S. Two Row and Maris Otter?

Thanks in advance for all the hard work going into this recipe!

would you, could you, post your zombie clone recipe?? thanks!
 
Reviewing the new Beeradvocate this month theres an interview with kimmich at the end about heady and the new expansion.
They asked if theres anything else planned and he said that hes going to be taking his 12 favorite recipes (4-5 being ipas, OF COURSE) and brew 1 a month to be sold at the cannery in swing tops!
Another thing he mentioned later in the interview was that hes still not 100% satisfied with heady and that its changing every batch, "its the fun part" he says changing hop strains, when there added in the kettle and the amount added change everytime, he also goes on to say that within a years time heady is going to be a completely different beer.

REALLY!? How could the #1 DIPA in the WORLD change that dramatically?? but a moot point here after reading this its now come to my mind that Heady Topper is 100% Not cloneable, Im about to brew 4,0 next weekend im sure its DAMN close to when I had heady at the beginning of the year (more trub in cans, fruitier, tons of peach) but as of now heady changes every batch. Now while most of us knew that this was going on it really sets it in that well never have a 100% clone for at least another year when he dials the recipe in to his liking.
 
would you, could you, post your zombie clone recipe?? thanks!

This is the recipe, courtesy of SkeezerPleezer. You can find the thread here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/three-floyds-zombie-dust-clone-303478/

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: English Ale
Yeast Starter: Recommended
Batch Size (Gallons): 6
Original Gravity: 1.065
Final Gravity: 1.018
IBU: 65
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 8.5
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10
Tasting Notes: Been brewed multiple times with S-04 and WY1968, both with very favorable results.

Batch Size: 6 gallons
Estimated Original Gravity: 1.065
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.018
Estimated Color: 8.5 SRM
Bitterness: 65.9 IBU
Mash Temp: 152 F

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.75 lb 2 Row (2.0 SRM) Grain 81.7 %
1.13 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 7.8 %
0.50 lb Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
0.50 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (15 min) Hops 21.1 IBU
0.75 oz Citra [12.40%] (First Wort Hop) Hops 17.0 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (10 min) Hops 15.4 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (5 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (1 min) Hops 1.8 IBU
3.00 oz Citra [12.40%] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
SafAle English Ale (S-04)
0r
Wyeast 1968
 
This is the recipe, courtesy of SkeezerPleezer. You can find the thread here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/three-floyds-zombie-dust-clone-303478/

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: English Ale
Yeast Starter: Recommended
Batch Size (Gallons): 6
Original Gravity: 1.065
Final Gravity: 1.018
IBU: 65
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 8.5
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10
Tasting Notes: Been brewed multiple times with S-04 and WY1968, both with very favorable results.

Batch Size: 6 gallons
Estimated Original Gravity: 1.065
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.018
Estimated Color: 8.5 SRM
Bitterness: 65.9 IBU
Mash Temp: 152 F

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.75 lb 2 Row (2.0 SRM) Grain 81.7 %
1.13 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 7.8 %
0.50 lb Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
0.50 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (15 min) Hops 21.1 IBU
0.75 oz Citra [12.40%] (First Wort Hop) Hops 17.0 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (10 min) Hops 15.4 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (5 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (1 min) Hops 1.8 IBU
3.00 oz Citra [12.40%] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
SafAle English Ale (S-04)
0r
Wyeast 1968

It's a damn good one too, I always have this in the pipeline. :rockin:
 
Just wanted to add i had conan stall out at 1.018 on my own ipa recipe thats based of heady somewhat. Is the yeast worth saving now?
 
So far mine is stalling out at 1.018 as well. Just raised the temp from ~67 to ~72 so I will check back in a few days. I'd be curious to know if anyone has harvest Conan from more recent batches and knows the attenuation of it.
 
Just wanted to add i had conan stall out at 1.018 on my own ipa recipe thats based of heady somewhat. Is the yeast worth saving now?

fwiw, I won a competition with a batch that stalled at 1.018. The "new" yeast system he uses doesn't go over 10-12 generations, so it should be no lower than 80%. Once you get above 12th gen, it's dips below 80%.
 
Well it's not like this yeast has a genetic death switch built in, it's just that fermenting heady is stressful for it and it adapts by attenuating less over time. I'm sure if you brew some lower OG batches with it then the yeast won't crap out in a dozen generations.
 
My 4.0 batch finished at 1.016 from 1.071 but i had some starter mishaps and i may have underpitched, i had serious lag time but so far its a pretty tasty beer
 
Just wanted to add i had conan stall out at 1.018 on my own ipa recipe thats based of heady somewhat. Is the yeast worth saving now?

I'd take a look and figure out your attenuation. Then plan on that or less in the future. If you can make lower gravity ales and reach the FG you want, you can keep going. You might be able to increase the attenuation by top cropping the yeast on your next batch and trying to get the strongest cells.
 
doublehaul said:
My 4.0 batch finished at 1.016 from 1.071 but i had some starter mishaps and i may have underpitched, i had serious lag time but so far its a pretty tasty beer

My v4 attempt finished at1.01 - is that much lower than most? OG was1.069
 
I'll get one and only one can of Heady very soon. Has anyone had success harvesting dregs from a single can to pitch a ~5 gallon batch? Any recommendations?
 
I'll get one and only one can of Heady very soon. Has anyone had success harvesting dregs from a single can to pitch a ~5 gallon batch? Any recommendations?
Sure, not a problem. I did 2 cans, but I did them separately, so I essentially did it from 1 can.

2 billion yeast cells per can
130 ml starter to make 8 billion
470 ml starter to make 34
1L starter to make 126
1.7L starter to make 329
which I divided up into 3 containers

And I've gone from 1 of the containers to starter to make enough for a batch and to pull 100 b off from the starter to save for future batches.

Just give yourself time as it will take almost 2 weeks to get up to 300+ billion cells.
 
Having trouble finding caramalt and Pearl anywhere without having to place multiple orders. Looks like brew brothers has it AND has hop jizz, but no Apollo and Centennial hops. Plus, shipping to me for a $40 order is about $25!!! That seems a little out of whack! Has anyone been able to find a good place to purchase this stuff online without crazy shipping costs?
 
Sure, not a problem. I did 2 cans, but I did them separately, so I essentially did it from 1 can.

2 billion yeast cells per can
130 ml starter to make 8 billion
470 ml starter to make 34
1L starter to make 126
1.7L starter to make 329
which I divided up into 3 containers

And I've gone from 1 of the containers to starter to make enough for a batch and to pull 100 b off from the starter to save for future batches.

Just give yourself time as it will take almost 2 weeks to get up to 300+ billion cells.

Thanks so much, this is exactly what I was hoping someone would post. Your nutrient worts, did you just use DME @ 1.040? How did you decide when to step up?
 
Having trouble finding caramalt and Pearl anywhere without having to place multiple orders. Looks like brew brothers has it AND has hop jizz, but no Apollo and Centennial hops. Plus, shipping to me for a $40 order is about $25!!! That seems a little out of whack! Has anyone been able to find a good place to purchase this stuff online without crazy shipping costs?

Now that I am involved in a small business that ships, I'm shocked at the ridiculous prices for shipping. The prices are so high, it costs 5 bucks just to ship 1 vial of yeast. Anything at UPS is basically 12 bucks+, add some weight and it's easily in the high teens. Then you have boxes, packing supplies, tape, time to prepare the boxes, ugh.
 
Now that I am involved in a small business that ships, I'm shocked at the ridiculous prices for shipping. The prices are so high, it costs 5 bucks just to ship 1 vial of yeast. Anything at UPS is basically 12 bucks+, add some weight and it's easily in the high teens. Then you have boxes, packing supplies, tape, time to prepare the boxes, ugh.

Absolutely. The 'off the street' rates don't look anything like the volume negotiated contract or prepaid rates that you can get. Anyhow, you can start to negotiate rates with surprisingly few (like 20-30) parcels per month, or ask about purchasing prepaid. Might not hurt to speak with your area fedex / ups sales rep..
 
Absolutely. The 'off the street' rates don't look anything like the volume negotiated contract or prepaid rates that you can get. Anyhow, you can start to negotiate rates with surprisingly few (like 20-30) parcels per month, or ask about purchasing prepaid. Might not hurt to speak with your area fedex / ups sales rep..

That's a good idea. I'm doing well over 100 a month, but the UPS rates were too high to start. I'll see what they say, thanks.
 
Partial Mash update from 3/17 Brewday (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index51.html#post5003099)

Hydro sample was cool and adjusted to 1.017 FG. Smelled amazing, lots of Amarillo, Centennial, and Columbus going on. Taste was a bit peach fruity, some grapefruit citrus, and a good oomph of dankness. Heady it is not, but it is one tasty brew.

FG was high, attributing that to the extract and the 152F mash temp. Adjusted down to 149/150F would probably bring it down those few extra points. I did not taste any Pearl malt off the bat, but who knows what we'll lose hop-wise and gain malt-wise during the following 5 day dry-hop and 3 week bottle conditioning.

Another 6oz of hops went into the primary today for the dry hop. Will report back in about 4 weeks after I get my first taste of the finished product.

Am considering doing a PM Heady Topper clone myself, and would love to hear how this one ended up tasting!
 
That's a good idea. I'm doing well over 100 a month, but the UPS rates were too high to start. I'll see what they say, thanks.

Just keep in mind 100 a month is still tiny peanuts to UPS/Fedex. You will get better rates than not having an account, but don't expect a game changer. And if you are shipping vials, don't expect them to compete with USPS (they don't want to). Those small parcels aren't their game. USPS will likely still be your best option.
 
Thanks so much, this is exactly what I was hoping someone would post. Your nutrient worts, did you just use DME @ 1.040? How did you decide when to step up?
Yes DME at ~1.037. I used yeast nutrient; maybe 1/4 to 1/2 tsp per starter depending on size. And how I figured out that schedule is because I copied what veganbrewer said on his (her?) site :) Which was deleted so the harvesting conan page is gone :( But what I gathered is, especially in the early steps, you want to keep the growth factor less than 3 so you don't stress out the yeast. So that's what dictates the step starter sizes.

Now that I am involved in a small business that ships, I'm shocked at the ridiculous prices for shipping. The prices are so high, it costs 5 bucks just to ship 1 vial of yeast. Anything at UPS is basically 12 bucks+, add some weight and it's easily in the high teens. Then you have boxes, packing supplies, tape, time to prepare the boxes, ugh.
Yep, I was shocked when I was sending some Conan out. It was definitely a money losing proposition, but I got some cool beer and I helped out some fellow home brewers so it was worth it. But I won't be so quick to agree from now on :)
 
So my Conan was stuck at 1.018 for about 5 days @ 68f, so I raised it to 72f and took a gravity reading after two days @ 72f and its now 1.014. Not sure what that means but I got my Conan from end of May / early June cans.
 
Someone told me today that there have been some cases of ECY29 stalling at 1.018-1.020 too. Interesting. Maybe Kimmich has a remote control kill switch that he presses when someone harvests his yeast. :cross:
 
Having trouble finding caramalt and Pearl anywhere without having to place multiple orders. Looks like brew brothers has it AND has hop jizz, but no Apollo and Centennial hops. Plus, shipping to me for a $40 order is about $25!!! That seems a little out of whack! Has anyone been able to find a good place to purchase this stuff online without crazy shipping costs?

from FB:

Farmhouse Brewing Supply
Pearl and Caramalt from Fawcett are now in stock for all you Heady Toppy fans!
http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/pearl-fawcett/

they have apollo and centennial, too.
 
Meh.
I built up Conan from a single can over about a week and brewed a high7s%abv ipa which experienced much higher apparent attenuation than its traditional strain has provided. Then I took a bunch o' the cake and brewed a heady clone. It is in the middle of dry hopping and was last measured at 1.012.
 
Reviewing the new Beeradvocate this month theres an interview with kimmich at the end about heady and the new expansion.
They asked if theres anything else planned and he said that hes going to be taking his 12 favorite recipes (4-5 being ipas, OF COURSE) and brew 1 a month to be sold at the cannery in swing tops!
Another thing he mentioned later in the interview was that hes still not 100% satisfied with heady and that its changing every batch, "its the fun part" he says changing hop strains, when there added in the kettle and the amount added change everytime, he also goes on to say that within a years time heady is going to be a completely different beer.

REALLY!? How could the #1 DIPA in the WORLD change that dramatically?? but a moot point here after reading this its now come to my mind that Heady Topper is 100% Not cloneable, Im about to brew 4,0 next weekend im sure its DAMN close to when I had heady at the beginning of the year (more trub in cans, fruitier, tons of peach) but as of now heady changes every batch. Now while most of us knew that this was going on it really sets it in that well never have a 100% clone for at least another year when he dials the recipe in to his liking.

I'm not sure if you read the same interview as I did... It doesn't say its going to be a completely different beer...

"I'm still not satisfied 100 percent with Heady. In another year, it's going to be even better".

Question: "Can you tell me what will change?"
Answer: "No. Basically at this point, when you're making one beer like that, the only thing that's going to improve it is ingredients. So it's my goal to be obtaining the very finest hops that I possibly can, and the barley. I'm constantly messing around with dry hopping, what strains I use throughout the batch, what order I use them in, what quantities I use them in, and so it's fun."


Reads to me more like tweaking a good thing that drastically changing it.

He also says eight or nine of the 12 favorites are IPAs.

And for ****s and giggles, the thing that would surprise people about ole John Kimmich, he says "I love love love drinking stuff like Iron City and Pabst, Corona, anything cheap and light like that".
 
Don't quote me on this, but hopshot is slightly less aggressive bitterness. If you do a regular hop addition, look into some as a FWH which does something to the polyphenols and makes the bitterness slightly less harsh. Maybe not all FWH, but some perhaps?
 
from FB:

Farmhouse Brewing Supply
Pearl and Caramalt from Fawcett are now in stock for all you Heady Toppy fans!
http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/pearl-fawcett/

they have apollo and centennial, too.

Thanks, still dont have amarillo but my LHBS had some last time I was there. Thier shipping is reasonable at $12, but the way they price thier hops is crazy. For 3 ounces of their hops, it is the same price they sell a pound for! I am not certain I will use up a pound of simcoe or a pound of columbus!! Though I guess it wont be bad to have them around, just need to find a recipe to use them in!

Is it useful to try to use the columbus or Simcoe to make up the 118 IBUs of hop shots since i will have so much? Or will I get a different flavor that I wasnt expecting? I always thought that after a 60 minute boil addition, there really is no flavor or aroma left, only the bitterness?
 
Oh, and Vegan, when will the next vials of Conan be available? I keep checking the site but it always show out of stock.
 
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