Two bad batches and need some help

Okay, so here's the story

Last April I started a batch of watermelon (5 gallon). I followed the recipe, but after about a month it started smelling bad, and the samples weren't good either. I racked it, hoping I could check it again in a few months and it would turn around. I ended up dumping it after about 3-4 months in the carboy. It had a sour sweaty sock taste to it (yeah, it was that good) and had a hazy white color. I was disappointed but, bad batches happen.

About a month ago I started a batch of peach and started with fresh (then frozen) fruit. I followed the recipe (5 gallons here too) and racked it yesterday. Unfortunately, it looks like the peach is heading down the same road. It had a very similar taste to the watermelon (sour) and it lost a lot of its peach like color since pitching the yeast.

I've read that watermelon can be tricky to get right, but I thought surely fresh peaches would be doable.

Basically I have two questions:

1) Is it worth letting it work for another few months or should I toss it and use the carboy for something else (I only have one other bucket so a batch of wine cuts beer/cider production in half)?
2) What can cause a wine to go that bad so quickly?

Yeast strain? Temp during fermentation? Sterilizing well?

Different yeast strains both times (didn't write down either one :smack.

Temp was always between 70 - 75. It might have gotten up to almost 80 a time or two but it's unlikely.

I feel pretty good about sterilizing, I'd be surprised if it had something to do with that.

It had a sour sweaty sock taste to it

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This makes me think brettanomyces. But it's hard to say from here.

How old is your equipment? How young are you trying to drink this stuff? Some yeast strains are just gross to me, even after aging a year it tastes odd.

75-80 is pretty high also, how fast are your primaries taking place? we talkn a week or two days?

CBMbrewer said:

This makes me think brettanomyces. But it's hard to say from here.

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I did a quick read-up on that and I guess that's what it could be, at least for the watermelon. It could have come in contact with a wooden spoon (big no-no, I know) and gotten it there, but the peach hasn't had any contact with something that lends itself to an infection. I even used a different carboy.

The equipment is pretty new (peach is in a plastic carboy that I bought sometime in late May), and I took a sample from the peach about a month after pitching the yeast. I'm not expecting it to taste great by any means, but if it's infected I'd rather count my losses and move on.

Realistically the average fermenting temp was probably between 70-75. If it got much higher than that it would only have been for a few hours.

I had the fresh fruit in the primary for about a week before racking to secondary.

because you are getting the same sourness in both batches it tells me you probably have either:

A. An infection
B. There is something wrong with your process.
C. Acidity is wrong.

If you can rule out some of these it will help a lot.

This is where great note taking pays to figure out problems.

I wouldnt worry a whole lot about color. You should watch cider go from brown to almost pink to almost clear, thats odd.

I agree, this is very wide to try to get at whats wrong. Did you campden this stuff before pitching?

I can see why note taking is important

A) I would be surprised if it's an infection. I'm pretty good about sanitizing every step of the way. That's not saying I couldn't have slipped up, but I feel pretty good about ruling that one out.
B) I'm not really sure what you mean by the process. If you mean the recipe there's nothing out of the ordinary that went in (fresh peaches, water, sugar, acid blend, pectic enzyme, tannin, energizer, campden, and yeast. I can look up amounts when I get home if that will help). The peaches were in a bag and the rest of the ingredients went in with them (except the yeast, which went in after about 24 hours). I dissolved the sugar in water, but made sure it was cool before adding it to the bucket. After about a week I racked to the carboy and discarded the pulp left in the bag.
C) What could throw off the acidity? The peaches I used were predominately bought during peak season here in SC. To my knowledge peaches aren't on the high end of acidity, or am I wrong on that?

jlh:
I'm only worried about the color of the peach because of my experience with the watermelon that went south. It's starting to taste and look like it, so I'm basing it off of that. I did use campden before pitching.

Is your water out of a well or city water? What was your process on the peaches?

Im just throwing stuff out here to try and help you think what might be causing it.

You see anything snotty floating in it? Got a picture?

Im just throwing stuff out here to try and help you think what might be causing it.

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I appreciate it because I'm at a loss.

It's city water, but I brought the heat up on it to help dissolve the sugar. I don't think it ever really boiled though.

I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary in terms of texture. I'll try to get a decent picture when I get home tonight.

One thing sticks out at me- you said you started it "about a month ago" and that you only have one bucket? You mean that you have it in a bucket the whole time, fermenting on the peaches?

It's hard to guess what's going on, but if you want to give us your process (how many campden tablets, how long in primary, how often it's stirred, when you racked, etc), we can help out.

Remember that oxygen loving wild yeast and bacteria will take advantage of process flaws, like too much headspace in the carboy, the fruit will get moldy if left too long, etc.

okay so it sounds like your process is fine, and peaches typically make good wine without adjustment. How can you be confident that it doesn't have an infection?? The sourness makes me think bacteria but if you are 100% sure that you have been very sanitary I don't really know what to tell you...I am stumped

Yooper said:

One thing sticks out at me- you said you started it "about a month ago" and that you only have one bucket? You mean that you have it in a bucket the whole time, fermenting on the peaches?

It's hard to guess what's going on, but if you want to give us your process (how many campden tablets, how long in primary, how often it's stirred, when you racked, etc), we can help out.

Remember that oxygen loving wild yeast and bacteria will take advantage of process flaws, like too much headspace in the carboy, the fruit will get moldy if left too long, etc.

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I probably could have been more clear on that part. I started in the bucket (for about a week with the peaches in the bag), then removed the pulp of the peaches racked to the carboy. It was there for about a month.

This is largely irrelevant because the taste was already bad at this point, but for clarity's sake this past weekend I racked it from the carboy to the bucket (which is when I noticed the off taste and the color changing). While the wine was in the bucket I cleaned the carboy, then racked from the bucket back into the carboy, where it's sitting now. I needed the bucket for another brew and I wanted the wine to be in a clear carboy so I could keep an eye on how it was clearing.

I added 5 crushed tablets, stirred every day, and racked into secondary after about a week. The headspace in the bucket was probably too much, but since it was just getting started and it was only there a week I didn't think that would matter (or does it?). Headspace in the 5 gallon carboy was average (didn't seem to be too low or too high).

okay so it sounds like your process is fine, and peaches typically make good wine without adjustment. How can you be confident that it doesn't have an infection?? The sourness makes me think bacteria but if you are 100% sure that you have been very sanitary I don't really know what to tell you...I am stumped

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I guess I can't be TOTALLY sure, but I'm fairly certain I sanitized the bucket/carboy, hoses, auto-siphon, the whole bit. The airlock on the bucket and carboy both had some pressure built up, so I think I can rule out an infection there (otherwise it would have been still right?).

Does it matter that I blended the peaches before I started?

The headspace in the fermenter during primary is not an issue- you don't even need a lid and airlock when the wine is in primary. (Covering it a clean towel is fine. I don't know what "average" headspace is in a 5 gallon carboy- it should be none. Well, at least it needs to go to under the bung so up to the opening where it is the narrowest, say two inches from the bung. Some of mine are a bit higher but you don't want it below that.

This is not the cause of the infection, but you need another carboy. You don't want to rack your wine to a bucket and then back to a carboy- too much danger of oxidation. You do rack several times (and top up) over the course of clearing and fermentation sometimes, but always gently to a new sanitized carboy.

As to the cause of the poor flavor of this wine, it seems that it has to be an infection. Can you describe the character of the flavor? Meaty? Sour? Tart? Moldy? "Dirty"? Sweaty gym socks? Goaty? See if you can define what you're tasting, and that will help us alot to figure out if this is an infection, and if so what kind and how it got there.

cheesy said the taste was sour. To me this seems like:

A. It has an infection
B. It is oxidized
C. It is a young wine that needs aging.

I don't think any of my wines have tasted good after only a month. I would just finish it and age it out. If you keep dumping them out you'll never know.

I did not see a hydrometer reading. One mans sour can be another mans dry. Cloudiness can be lees still floating. Just throwing thing to the wall

Yooper said:

The headspace in the fermenter during primary is not an issue- you don't even need a lid and airlock when the wine is in primary. (Covering it a clean towel is fine. I don't know what "average" headspace is in a 5 gallon carboy- it should be none. Well, at least it needs to go to under the bung so up to the opening where it is the narrowest, say two inches from the bung. Some of mine are a bit higher but you don't want it below that.

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Initially I was a bit lower than what you're saying, but I was getting airlock activity so I wasn't worried about it. My thought was all of the O2 had been pushed out by the CO2 so it wouldn't be oxidized. Is that wrong?

This is not the cause of the infection, but you need another carboy. You don't want to rack your wine to a bucket and then back to a carboy- too much danger of oxidation. You do rack several times (and top up) over the course of clearing and fermentation sometimes, but always gently to a new sanitized carboy.

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Tell me about it! I'm strapped for space but I do see the benefit of another carboy, even if it's not being used all the time. Although I did make sure I racked gently. Out of curiosity, what do you top off with?

As to the cause of the poor flavor of this wine, it seems that it has to be an infection. Can you describe the character of the flavor? Meaty? Sour? Tart? Moldy? "Dirty"? Sweaty gym socks? Goaty? See if you can define what you're tasting, and that will help us alot to figure out if this is an infection, and if so what kind and how it got there.

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It's definitely sour, with a...musty aftertaste? It's predominately sour though, and the peach flavor is minimal.

Honda88 said:

cheesy said the taste was sour. To me this seems like:

A. It has an infection
B. It is oxidized
C. It is a young wine that needs aging.

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It could be A or B, but I'm fairly certain that it doesn't taste the way it does because it needs aging. It tastes very similar to my watermelon which was definitely bad/soured/infected. I've sampled other wines that tasted young, but not pucker sour and they turned out fine.

Ridenour64 said:

I don't think any of my wines have tasted good after only a month. I would just finish it and age it out. If you keep dumping them out you'll never know.

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I take your point, but if it's already infected I'd rather move on as soon as possible.

scarekrow said:

I did not see a hydrometer reading. One mans sour can be another mans dry. Cloudiness can be lees still floating. Just throwing thing to the wall

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OG was 1.040, this weekend it was around .990 (I'm not 100% sure on that, I'll have to check what I wrote down at home). I guess it could taste sour when it's just dry, but the color is worrying me too.

I don't know, maybe I'm just over-reacting but it doesn't seem like it's heading down the right path

color doesnt look horrible, it just hasnt had time to clear. the fact it tastes very little like peach doesnt concern me either. have you ever done a cider? it starts out almost so thick you could chew it and when its done it barely has an apple flavor at all.

im gonna suggest you put this carboy in the dark for three months before you decide what to do

it needs to clear, that isn't even close to being ready to drink. If you don't separate the solids from the alcohol it is going to taste like crap. The only time a clear wine should taste horrible is if it has an infection or if it has an overabundance of h2s gas. Your wine just isn't clear enough to tell yet.

jlh42581 said:

im gonna suggest you put this carboy in the dark for three months before you decide what to do

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Honda88 said:

it needs to clear, that isn't even close to being ready to drink. If you don't separate the solids from the alcohol it is going to taste like crap. The only time a clear wine should taste horrible is if it has an infection or if it has an overabundance of h2s gas. Your wine just isn't clear enough to tell yet.

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Thanks folks, I'll do that. I guess I jumped the gun. I'll report back with updates, hopefully it will help someone else later.