Barleywine - champagne yeast help!

I am new to homebrewing, really only brewed about a half dozen times before. My in-laws got me a beer of the month kit from Windriver Brewing, and I just finished brewing the Sleepy Time BarleyWine.

My issue is right as I broke out my hydrometer to take my OG, I literally broke out my hydrometer (rolled right off the counter). So I have no OG to go off of at this point.

My recipe used a 1056 smack pack and then provides a pack of Red Star champagne yeast they say to use in the secondary.

Can someone help with instructions?

1. Do I need the champagne yeast? What range of SG should I expect to make this determination?

2. Its been in primary for 10 days, when should I rack to secondary?

3. and, how would I pitch this champagne yeast if necessary?


Brian

You think we all know the ingredients of that beer!

RECIPE! If you want any decent feedback.

Sorry, here is what was used in the recipe:

6 lbs. Amber malt extract
6 lbs. Dark malt extract
2 oz. Mt. Hood bittering hops
2 oz. Kent Goldings bittering hops
1 oz. Tettnanger aroma hops
1/2 lb. Crystal 40°L
1/2 lb. Victory malt
1056 American Ale Wyeast


Brian

Did you make a starter with the 1056? For a 5 gallon batch, if you made a nice starter, the 1056 should ferment that out fine, without the need for the champagne yeast. If the fermentation has slowed, I would rouse the yeast by gently swirling the carboy around for a few minutes. Let it ferment a while longer then. What temperature is the carboy at? If it is within the range of the yeast, you are fine; if not, warm/cool appropriately.

If you need to use the dry yeast, you can rehydrate it at any time in a few ounces of warm water (around 90 or so) for a few minutes. Use the whole pack and mix it with the war water, then pitch. Ferment at room temperature. This will probably dry out your brew some. That is one reason why I try to avoid champagne yeast.

I did not make a starter for the yeast. New to this, so that concept is...well new to me.

The barleywine is in a plastic primary, but I do have a carboy available for my secondary. Should I swirl the plastic primary?

The temp is around 65 which is the low end of the range, but I will move it to up the temp a bit.

You mention "if" I need to use the champagne yeast, but I guess that is my question....without an OG, is there a range I am trying to get towards to say I don't need the champagne yeast?

assuming those extracts were liquid, your OG is around 1.092 if you're at 5gals. if your SG doesnt get into the 20s, you need the champagne yeast. I'd give it at least another week before you bother to check that.

Thanks, I will check it in a week and go from there.

Always appreciate the advice!

1.027 was the reading

Rack it to a secondary and leave it there? Suggestions

Damn thing smells delicious!

Leaveit there for at least a month total imo

leave it in primary I mean at least for a month

yeah, give it a month total in primary and see where it's at, and take a sip of your sample thinking about the over all balance of alcohol to sweetness and body when you do. It'll be pretty hot, because it will be young, but you should be able to get a sense of it.

Some times the big beers will go slowly for the last few weeks, but they will fall. And an F.G. in the low 20's or high teens wouldn't be inappropriate for something like this. Probably anything below 1.022 would be fine. (Don't forget to calibrate you hydrometer by checking in your brew water and to adjust for temp! )

I would want to make sure that the fermentation is complete before transferring it. You can leave it in the primary for months if need be with no ill effects, but a big beer like this can stand quite a bit of bulk aging, which will mellow out any hot alcohol burn you might taste. So with this one I could see transferring to another vessel to bulk age and free up your fermentor.

As for the champagne yeast, if it has gotten to 1.027 in 2 weeks-ish, I bet it will go the rest of the way on it's own. I recently learned that champagne yeasts can consume sugars that ale yeasts cannot. So they could really dry out your beer, leaving it very thin and hot. I would only use them to cure a cloyingly sweet beer that was truly stuck.

It sounds like the distributor was trying to make it fool proof by including the extra yeast, on the cheap. The way to do it would have been to use a starter, or multiple vials/packs of liquid yeast(expensive). A dry ale yeast would have had more yeast cells to start with, so you wouldn't have had to use a starer, but there are more strains of liquid yeasts available and you will find they all will contribute unique flavors which can really make a beer

Anyway, just my 2 cents...

D0ug said:

I recently learned that champagne yeasts can consume sugars that ale yeasts cannot. So they could really dry out your beer, leaving it very thin and hot.

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It's the other way around actually. Beer yeasts can ferment larger sugars than wine (including champagne) yeast.

a10t2 said:

It's the other way around actually. Beer yeasts can ferment larger sugars than wine (including champagne) yeast.

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Yooper said:

I wouldn't add EC-1118 at bottling. I'd add it before that. The reason is that if it isn't killed by the alcohol content, it'll ferment some sugars that ale yeast normally won't. So, you may have bottle bombs if you wait until bottling to add it. I'd add it in secondary, late, with a starter, and cross my fingers. But I feel that wouldn't be as easy and as dependable as simply carbing it up in a keg and bottling from the keg.

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Really???

dunno, I'm a noob, but I'm going with Yooper on this one. Edit: Unless you have some references you can share.

If the you or the OP wants to try it, I say go for it and let us know how it goes.

D0ug said:

Unless you have some references you can share.

Click to expand...

Here you go: http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/wine-yeasts

There was also an interview with Shea Comfort on one of the BN podcasts a couple years ago.

My guess is that the Champagne yeast is actually included for bottling, not secondary fermentation. Such a big beer is likely to have tired yeasties by the end of it, so you rehydrate the Champagne yeast into the bottling bucket with your priming sugar, rack on top of it, and have fresh yeast that'll eat the priming sugar at bottling time.

My understanding is that the Champagne yeas is mainly good at devouring simple sugars in a high ABV environment, so hopefully you wouldn't have bottle bombs as long as your Primary finished eating up as much Maltose as possible.

Jawbox0 said:

My guess is that the Champagne yeast is actually included for bottling, not secondary fermentation. Such a big beer is likely to have tired yeasties by the end of it, so you rehydrate the Champagne yeast into the bottling bucket with your priming sugar, rack on top of it, and have fresh yeast that'll eat the priming sugar at bottling time.

My understanding is that the Champagne yeas is mainly good at devouring simple sugars in a high ABV environment, so hopefully you wouldn't have bottle bombs as long as your Primary finished eating up as much Maltose as possible.

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+1 I'd use the Champagne yeast for bottling, just add it to the bottling bucket after you start to rack your beer on to the priming sugar. This ensures that your beer carbs up fairly quickly. The Champagne/Wine yeasts usually ferment simple sugars for the most part (Sucrose/Dextrose), not the more complex ones (Maltose) that Beer yeasts target.

Huh, whadda ya know...

I stand corrected.

But now I wonder where the often voiced concerns about drying out the beer or bottle bombs from adding the champagne yeast come from, is it just because of the higher alcohol tolerance?

Ale-Pocalypse 2012

Style: Specialty Beer OG: 1.117
Type: Partial Mash FG: 1.023
Rating: 0.0 ABV: 12.31 %
Calories: 378 IBU's: 67.09
Efficiency: 65 % Boil Size: 3.00 Gal
Color: * 24.1 SRM Batch Size: 5.00 Gal
Boil Time: 60 minutes

Fermentation Steps
Name Days / Temp
Primary 21 days @ 68.0°F
Secondary 14 days @ 68.0°F
Bottle/Keg 180 days @ 64.0°F

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
12.00 lbs 64.86 % Munton's Light LME 60 mins 1.037
2.00 lbs 10.81 % Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L 60 mins 1.034
1.50 lbs 8.11 % Maize, Flaked 60 mins 1.037
1.00 lbs 5.41 % Briess Rye Malt 60 mins 1.035
1.00 lbs 5.41 % Briess Barley, Flaked 60 mins 1.035
1.00 lbs 5.41 % Cara-Pils/Dextrine 60 mins 1.033

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
4.00 ozs 67.09 Summit 60 mins 18.20

Yeasts
Amount Name Laboratory / ID
1.0 pkg Super High Gravity Ale White Labs 0099

Additions
Amount Name Time Stage
12.00 oz Oak Chips Soaked in Whiskey 14 days Secondary

Mash Profile
Medium Body Infusion 60 min @ 154.0°F
Add 8.12 qt ( 1.25 qt/lb ) water @ 167.4°F

Carbonation
Amount Type Beer Temp CO2 Vols
2.50 oz Table Sugar - Bottle Carbonation 64.0°F 1.90



I have this recipe fermenting in a primary in a second fridge i have. I cant get the temps up to 68 and have it sitting at around 62ish because the temp controller i ordered has not arrived yet. Is that too cold for this yeast? The wort was more like a slurry when it was all said and done. I only had to add about 1 gallon of water to bring it up to the 5gal. A little insight would be much appreciated!

Using 0099 is tricky sometimes, see the below directly from White Labs. I think you certainly need to warm it up a bit.

WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale Yeast
Can ferment up to 25% alcohol. From England. Produces ester character that increases with increasing gravity. Malt character dominates at lower gravities.
Attenuation: >80%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 65-69°F
Alcohol Tolerance: Very High

Notice to brewers: This can be a difficult-to-use strain and we recommend the following::
1. Needs heavy aeration.
a. Aerate very heavily, 4 times as much as with a normal gravity beer. Less oxygen dissolves into solution at high gravity. Aerate intermittently during first 5 days of fermentation (30sec-1min).
2. Needs nutrients
3. To obtain higher ABVs (16% +)
a. Pitch 3-4 times as much yeast.
b. Add 2 times the normal nutrient level
c. Begin Fermentation with wort that would produce a lower alcohol beer (6-8%) and then add wort each day for the first 5 days (wort can be concentrated at this point).

i really hope you made a starter for that. 62F should be fine, but 099 was overkill for that, 001/1056/S-05 would have worked just as well while being less difficult

Right now it only champagne yeast goin.

I'd be interested to see how far down it goes, Champagne/Wine yeasts typically only eat simple sugars.

wyzazz said:

I'd be interested to see how far down it goes, Champagne/Wine yeasts typically only eat simple sugars.

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After this i ricked and added some amylase. Also made a starter with the wlp099 using the partially fermented wort to get it used to the alcohol and champagne yeast that was already in there and stalled out.

wyzazz said:

I'd be interested to see how far down it goes, Champagne/Wine yeasts typically only eat simple sugars.

Click to expand...

So heres where we are at so far. I aerated and added some amylase from my lhbs. I also made a starter of wlp099 using the partially fermented wort to take it to the next level because the sugars were not fully fermented. Thoughts?

Sorry for the somewhat double post i thought it didnt go through the first time.

How long has it been since adding the amylase? Give it a few weeks.

I added this afternoon but i already mixed the starter so its kinda too late to turn back now as far as i know but i am going on vacation for three weeks and leaving this friday.

wyzazz said:

How long has it been since adding the amylase? Give it a few weeks.

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That reading was taken before putting the amylase in.

grssmnperez said:

That reading was taken before putting the amylase in.

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Let the amylase sit for a while, it will take time for it to work at fermentation temps.

wyzazz said:

Let the amylase sit for a while, it will take time for it to work at fermentation temps.

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Wht about the starter i just made? It wont survive for a month for when i come home.

Pitch it in to the beer, can't hurt...

The starter is good, pitch it. Not sure the amalyase was a good idea. Might turn out to be the right thing to have done.

Calder said:

The starter is good, pitch it. Not sure the amalyase was a good idea. Might turn out to be the right thing to have done.

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Im
Not sure what you are pertaining to in your last sentence. I just took a peek at the carboy and i am seeing signs of co2 coming up to the top in the form of tiny bubbles. The yeast starter looks and smells to be taking well to the amylase treated wort. Lets just hope it finishes the job in the carboy for this primary ferm while im in new york until mid july.

Champagne yeast (and all wine yeast) cannot ferment maltose or maltotriose, there are also what are called "positive" competitive factor yeast meaning they will kill off any other yeast they encounter so once you add the champagne yeast 1) you will only ferment simple sugars, and 2) you will kill off your beer yeast so even if you use enzymes you may not get any further fermentation becasue the beer yeast is gone.

If you are going to use a wine yeast either use it after all of the beer yeast has finished, or use it alone on a seperate batch and blend the finished product with your "beer yeast only" portion.

EDIT: Maltose is just 2 glucose sugars connected and maltotriose is a 3 glucose chain. Alpha-amylase breaks starch into these components...which champagne yeast can't touch.

Second ferment? These pics are as of today.

Sorry for the double pic here is the other one note the temp.

Definitely a second ferment!

Some of these posts have given me insight to my question, but I'll post it anyway:
I brewed up my first Barleywine. I used a recipe I found, tweaked it a bit, and ended up with 1.115 for my OG. This was higher than anticipated. I did a yeast starter with WLP001. Everything looks great.
If I need to ferment more, which is likely, I thought about racking to a secondary fermenter, and pitching another WLP001 starter.
I haven't heard or read someone doing this, but I have only been brewing for a year now, and know I have SOOOO much to learn.
Thoughts on the second pitching? Other suggestions?
Thanks

SqueakyWheel said:

Thoughts on the second pitching? Other suggestions?

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if the starter was made properly you should be fine, but if you want/have to go that route, i'd recommend brewing a smaller beer and racking the BW onto that cake instead of making another starter. at least that way you get something to drink in the meantime, which will help ensure you give the BW the time it needs