D2 syrup composition - What the hell is it?

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ryane

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So, I think I came up with a much better way of making homemade candy syrup (another topic altogether) And there has been some resistance to this method. Why I cant say, but it has made a lot of people question what is actually in D2.

If you look at the spec sheet there's pretty much nothing to it other than sugar. I think the spec sheet is bogus, so after some discussion I thought it could be useful to analyze some d2 and see what I get

Right now Im going to look at the following, (should be done by the end of next week)

Ash content
Fe
Ca
Mg
Total Nitrogen
Fructose:Glucose:sucrose ratio

Is there anything else anyone can think of that might be useful in closing the knowledge gap as far as what D2 really is? BTW If you cant tell I have access to a large range of research equipment, so just about any idea is possible

If your interested in reading my ideas about candy syrup look in my signature, but in this thread I dont really want to debate the method, rather I just want to hear ideas about learning more about D2
 
Never heard of the stuff but according to their spec sheet it is caramelized beet sugar. If, as you seem to suspect. there is more to it than caramelized beet sugar then I suppose you could run a sugar spectrum on it looking for things other than sucrose, glucose and fructose. These would need to be compared to the spectrum of beet sugar. Total nitrogen would be telling as total nitrogen in the product higher than total nitrogen in beet sugar would suggest that some amino acid, polypeptide or protein has been added to precipitate the formation of Maillard products.
 
Huh you must not brew many belgian beers to never have heard of D2

As far as whats in there, I think its basically beet molasses, although some are arguing that its made from refined sugar rather than a byproduct of the refining process

as far as the sugar spectrum that gets pretty tricky, you have to have a fairly specialized instrument set up just for sugars, and while I have access to an hplc ms, its really only set up to do the fructose:glucose:sucrose measurements, and even that is gonna take some work.

Is there any other type of measurement on the syrup itself that could be worthwhile in defining what d2 really is, so that we might get closer in making it at home?
 
I think it is invert sugar that has then been caramelized, it is most likely beet sugar. Google invert sugar
 
Huh you must not brew many belgian beers to never have heard of D2

Never brewed one (well, I used to do wits)

As far as whats in there, I think its basically beet molasses, although some are arguing that its made from refined sugar rather than a byproduct of the refining process

According to their spec sheet it's caramelized beet sugar. Molasses is the stuff rejected in the refining process. You know what that tastes like (or can easily find out). If D2 tastes different then you can tentatively put the molasses suspicion aside.

as far as the sugar spectrum that gets pretty tricky, you have to have a fairly specialized instrument set up just for sugars, and while I have access to an hplc ms, its really only set up to do the fructose:glucose:sucrose measurements, and even that is gonna take some work.

I only suggested that as you said you had fancy gear.

Is there any other type of measurement on the syrup itself that could be worthwhile in defining what d2 really is, so that we might get closer in making it at home?

TKN based on the thought that there might be Maillard compounds in it.
 
According to their spec sheet it's caramelized beet sugar. Molasses is the stuff rejected in the refining process. You know what that tastes like (or can easily find out). If D2 tastes different then you can tentatively put the molasses suspicion aside.

TKN based on the thought that there might be Maillard compounds in it.

I understand what the spec sheet says, but Im thinking this is the byproduct from the refining process. Beet molasses isnt something that readily available in the US. There is a german beet syrup that I think tastes similar to D or D2, but is missing some of the chocolate notes, and the german syrup as far as I know is a slightly diluted beet molasses

Caramelization doesnt generate the types of flavors I think we are seeing in D2, lots of what most people associate with caramelization is actually browning reactions that take amine groups from the milk thats added to make caramels. If you make the syrup like I outline in the post but omit the yeast nutrient you basically get a coloring syrup that will add NO flavor to the beer.

I think the source of the nitrogen in the d2 is actually proteins in the molasses that are removed during the refining process.

Repeated heating and cooling cycles are used to crystalize sucrose and remove it from the mix, each time the molasses is more and more concentrated. Additionally this most likely generates more and more maillard reactions increasing the depth of flavor. What Im trying to do here is try and get the best handle I can on what is actually in D2. I think if we better understand whats in it, we can better replicate it

TKN - I am doing this one, hopefully to get a good idea whats in there
 
Off topic, but related:

Did you try the "old" way of making syrup using DAP, or did you just try the Wyeast nutrient? I found a world of difference between the two. DAP gives me fruit, then vanilla and caramel, then nuts, depending on cooking time. Wyeast nutrient gave me burnt sugar and a hard to clean pan.
 
Off topic, but related:

Did you try the "old" way of making syrup using DAP, or did you just try the Wyeast nutrient? I found a world of difference between the two. DAP gives me fruit, then vanilla and caramel, then nuts, depending on cooking time. Wyeast nutrient gave me burnt sugar and a hard to clean pan.

Yes, that was the way I always did it in the past, the only reason I went with the yeast nutrient this time is that I was out of DAP

the problem with the "old way" is your fighting chemistry. While adding a bit of acid will increase the conversion of sucrose to glucose and fructose, the acid slows to a halt the maillard reactions and impedes caramelization, all the while speading up pyrolysis (burnt sugar flavors)

This isnt particularily directed at you, but I dont understand the resistance to at least try this out, in another thread on another site Ive been met with outright hostility about this.

If our goal is something like D2, shouldnt we be trying to at least mimic the process? beet sugar is refined in an alkaline environment, inversion of sucrose means lost product to sugar refiners.
 
Yes, that was the way I always did it in the past, the only reason I went with the yeast nutrient this time is that I was out of DAP

the problem with the "old way" is your fighting chemistry. While adding a bit of acid will increase the conversion of sucrose to glucose and fructose, the acid slows to a halt the maillard reactions and impedes caramelization, all the while speading up pyrolysis (burnt sugar flavors)

Ah. I never added acid. Just beet sugar, heat and DAP.

This isnt particularily directed at you, but I dont understand the resistance to at least try this out, in another thread on another site Ive been met with outright hostility about this.

If our goal is something like D2, shouldnt we be trying to at least mimic the process? beet sugar is refined in an alkaline environment, inversion of sucrose means lost product to sugar refiners.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'll get some lime and try it out someday when I have time and a need for syrup.

I actually have a friend who is a process engineer in a sugar beet refinery near here. I might check with him and see if they have a comparable waste product and if so what they do with it.
 
I actually have a friend who is a process engineer in a sugar beet refinery near here. I might check with him and see if they have a comparable waste product and if so what they do with it.

I think most beet molasses goes to feed cattle etc, but I could be wrong, it would be interesting though if you could possibly get some of it from him, dilute it a tad and see how it tasted, better yet would be if you could send it my way and I could run the same tests on it to get a baseline to compare d2 to
 
Try e-mailing them yet? You might be surprised how open they might be about their process...

Dark candi??

They dont tell anyone anything about the process, its not something you can patent, so if they told anyone, someone else could make the same product
 
There are lots of process aids you can use to make a product that you don't have to disclose. So while it's legal for them to say things like "100% beet sugar" it's not intellectually honest.
 
To add a couploe things:
The flavors you get from candi sugar are not really from heating the sugar or camelizing it. Both these are frowned upon in a sugar factory (the object is to make a white product). The flavors are from the way sugar is made. The process removes colorants and other impurities (flavors). Once the process has removed impurities the sugar is crystallized it goes to the centrifigal station. At the centrigal station the run-off syrup gets re-crystalized in vacuum pans, this sugar is then spun in a 2nd centrifgal, the second run-off syrup is then spun off. This is repeated several times until is is un-economic to extract any more sucrose. The final molasses is sold as animal feed or for other products. This is not the syrup that is sold a candi sugar (it would taste bad). I believe candi sugar is 3rd or 4th run-off syrup.
Traditionally candi sugar is beet sugar, I think that beacuse that is where most of the European sugar comes from. Sugar beets are grown in colder areas, not many cane refineries there.
The run-off syrups are then inverted, why? Pure liquid sucrose has a very short shelf life, it will get yeast, mold, etc growing in it. Invert syrups are very shelf stable.
Inverting sucrose is done several ways in a sugar plant, enzymes, acid, or heating. The last two would drive the color up. This process would be very hard to replicate, camelizing sucrose will give it flavor but noe that "true" flavor found in run-off syrups.
 
To add a couploe things:
The flavors you get from candi sugar are not really from heating the sugar or camelizing it. Both these are frowned upon in a sugar factory (the object is to make a white product).

I agree, they also do not want to invert the sugar because that is product lost. Caramelization I believe, is also not the source of the flavors, Maillard reactions are

The flavors are from the way sugar is made. The process removes colorants and other impurities (flavors). Once the process has removed impurities the sugar is crystallized it goes to the centrifigal station. At the centrigal station the run-off syrup gets re-crystalized in vacuum pans, this sugar is then spun in a 2nd centrifgal, the second run-off syrup is then spun off. This is repeated several times until is is un-economic to extract any more sucrose.

I think you are vastly over simplifying the process, and would be curious to see your source. If you look at the EPA's process flow chart for sugar beet processing, there are several heaters in-line before the centrifuge or vacuum pans. While the pH is high from the milk of lime, and its still warm (in line heaters) this is where the flavor is made. Not all impurities are caught, which is why there are secondary and polishing filters that remove the product that develops color. The centrifuge is used to remove syrup from the crystallized product
Picture1.png
 
I did over simplify the process, didnt want to write a novel lol. Just to clarify a point, no "flavors" are made in the process. Not by caramelization or the maillard reaction. A better way to think of it is the concentration of impurities (flavors) increases through centrifugal run-off syups. Your diagram does not give detail here, the point the syrup is spun off the centrifigals and goes back to the pans is repeated several times. Usually up to 5 times. Each time the impurities are concentrated in the syrup. The impurities go up and the sucrose content goes down.

Even with all the heaters you see and the vacuum pans, no sucrose is destroyed by maillard reaction or caramelization. All the heating is done at "safe" temps.
 
Even with all the heaters you see and the vacuum pans, no sucrose is destroyed by maillard reaction or caramelization. All the heating is done at "safe" temps.

What is your source for any of this?

At elevated pH (11) maillard reactions will occur albeit a tad slow, at room temperature, but when you are literally processing tons of sugar, these slow reactions have the potential to produce quite a bit of maillard products
 
The introduction of slaked lime prior to carbonatation (not cabonation as the EPA diagram states) does create a high ph Sucrose/Lime mixture. The amount of time this high pH occurs is a very very short period. The pH is immediately driven down by the CO2introduced. The destruction of sucrose here, Maillard or caramelization, is very very low compared to other parts of the process. The goal of any sugar factory is to avoid any destruction by heat and it simply does not occur (on any scale worth mentionig that would contribute to flavor.)
 
There seems to be several companies that provide similar products in Europe. Some are more forthcoming than others. Some of the products have spec sheets that show the syrup is mostly maltose and fructose, which tells me there's enzymatic breakdown and the syrup is created before the maltose is broken down further. Other spec sheets show no maltose and from what I understand it's some form of a glucose syrup. I'm not sure which variety is D2.

I also believe the spec sheet on D2 is deceptive. I don't believe in the magic processing from refined sugar in super secret vacuum processors. I believe it begins life as an unrefined sugar and gets heat processed into something tasty. I do think there is a complex process involved, possibly with multiple staged heating. The best way to crack the secret would be to start with whole sugar beets but I wouldn't know where to get any in these parts.
 
There seems to be several companies that provide similar products in Europe. Some are more forthcoming than others. Some of the products have spec sheets that show the syrup is mostly maltose and fructose, which tells me there's enzymatic breakdown and the syrup is created before the maltose is broken down further. Other spec sheets show no maltose and from what I understand it's some form of a glucose syrup. I'm not sure which variety is D2.

I also believe the spec sheet on D2 is deceptive. I don't believe in the magic processing from refined sugar in super secret vacuum processors. I believe it begins life as an unrefined sugar and gets heat processed into something tasty. I do think there is a complex process involved, possibly with multiple staged heating. The best way to crack the secret would be to start with whole sugar beets but I wouldn't know where to get any in these parts.

Again I'll ask for a reference, youll have to forgive me if Im skeptical at just taking your word for it.

As far at the difference between carbonatation and carbonation, the EPA doc is correct, there is a carbonation step, where co2 is injected into the tank to form precipitates (co2 + lime) that trap impurities (which is what your referring to carbonatation)

http://www.sbreb.org/brochures/SugarCoop/ (ctrl F then type carbonation)

I still think that while they want to minimize darkening and inversion that on a scale that is processing tons a day that it is inevitable, and unless you can provide some references I remain extremely skeptical
 
At elevated pH (11) maillard reactions will occur albeit a tad slow, at room temperature, but when you are literally processing tons of sugar, these slow reactions have the potential to produce quite a bit of maillard products

At 11 you will get rapid coloration (within minutes) at anything over 100*F.
My source? My stove top.
 
The only reference I have is 20 years in the sugar business. Carbonation vs. Carbonatation is symantics, although I have never heard many people in the trade say carbonation, sounds like we are making beer or soda lol.
Yes, cabonatation reaction is CaOH + CO2 ---> CaCO3 + H2O, when the calcium carbonate is formed it has the unique ability to attract colorants and ash. These impurities are trapped in the calcium carbonate crystal which is then filtered out by mechanical filtration.
Back to the maillard reaction, this reaction cannot occur on sucrose, it only occurs on reducing sugars, once sucrose is destroyed to glucose of fructose then it could occur as they are reducing sugars. Again this is never done in a sugar factory. Invert (reducing sugars) run around 0.01% in a factory, any higher levels the factory would not stay in business very long.
As for the candi syrups they have alot of invert in them, which I believe is intentionally done, I am not sure if it is done to keep the candi syrup shelf stable until it is sold or its easier for the yeast to work on. Although I know yeast have no trouble eating pure sucrose, so my guess is to make it shelf stable without preservatives.
In the factory you can see the difference between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th run-off syrups. They get darker in color, they taste different (the impurities are being concentrated), the sucrose goes down, and impurities go up.
 
Again I'll ask for a reference, youll have to forgive me if Im skeptical at just taking your word for it.

I seem to recall finding more but I think this is a reasonable start. So if you look at what Castle Malting sells to homebrew shops and breweries they range from burnt sugar to caramelized sugar to syrups I assume are more D2-like.

http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleMaltingSugar.asp?Language=English

One of the companies that provides a lot of these products is belgosuc, which lists many of its products in this brochure. Note in describing their processes that they refer to these as "semi-refined" products. Also see in the last page describing their products that the products they produce for breweries are listed as a mixed syrup product.

http://www.belgosuc.be/images/files/doc_brochure_belgosuc_en.pdf

Here is the technical sheet on one of their products. I'm not sure if this is a brewing product or not but it matches the specs on other products I've seen referred to in brewing literature (sorry, I don't have cites on hand for those) but note that the sugar source is wheat hydrolysis.

http://www.hbingredients.co.uk/specsheets/849.pdf

Here's another belgosuc product, I believe this is among the products they make for breweries. Note that it is 70% maltose.

https://www.vantagehouse.com/VAN1/VAN1-MAIN/PDF/Ingredients/Specifications/S.GLU25.pdf

It seems D2 is Belgosuc's dark Candimic 78% syrup: http://panjiva.com/Ravico-NV-Candyparty/1649148

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any specs on it.
 
I seem to recall finding more but I think this is a reasonable start. So if you look at what Castle Malting sells to homebrew shops and breweries they range from burnt sugar to caramelized sugar to syrups I assume are more D2-like.

http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleMaltingSugar.asp?Language=English

One of the companies that provides a lot of these products is belgosuc, which lists many of its products in this brochure. Note in describing their processes that they refer to these as "semi-refined" products. Also see in the last page describing their products that the products they produce for breweries are listed as a mixed syrup product.

http://www.belgosuc.be/images/files/doc_brochure_belgosuc_en.pdf

Here is the technical sheet on one of their products. I'm not sure if this is a brewing product or not but it matches the specs on other products I've seen referred to in brewing literature (sorry, I don't have cites on hand for those) but note that the sugar source is wheat hydrolysis.

http://www.hbingredients.co.uk/specsheets/849.pdf

Here's another belgosuc product, I believe this is among the products they make for breweries. Note that it is 70% maltose.

https://www.vantagehouse.com/VAN1/VAN1-MAIN/PDF/Ingredients/Specifications/S.GLU25.pdf

It seems D2 is Belgosuc's dark Candimic 78% syrup: http://panjiva.com/Ravico-NV-Candyparty/1649148

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any specs on it.

RAM - thouse were interesting to take a look at, but at the heart of it those seem to be a very different product, glucose syrup made from wheat isnt quite the same as a sugar syrup made from sugar beets. That aside, have you tried any of those syrups personally?

As to the sugar composition of D2 or D, Im working on getting some time on an hplc-ms to run a sample and get an idea of the relative proportions, until then I'll hold my tongue a bit
 
Ryane, just to be clear, I am not trying to stir things up here. I am just sharing my experience in my industry. We blend syrups and molsses all the time for customers depending on their need. Alot of these blends are blended to give the customer a product that taste and looks good. All these syrups have different flavors, purity, and non-sugar solids, and colors. Your comment about the high volume is absolutely right. All sugar factories are very high volume, the company I work for owns most of the largest in the United States. For that reason I dont think many companies would go out of their way to make a "special" process for making candi syrup (small business in the scheme of things), they would just use the syrup/syrups they have on hand to make blends or use it straight. We also make invert sugars, from 100% invert down to 50% invert. It could be made at any % as we have process controls to run that process. I have not made any beer with syrups from our plant but have tasted these syrups for many years, I have only tasted one or two candi syrups but they taste like these intermediate run-off syups inverted.
 
I've had great success using a sugar solution (sucrose - beet sugar) heated around 130°C which had some nitrogen source added (Ammonium bicarbonate, DAP) and a fairly strong base (either Na2CO3 made from NaHCO3 by heating in the oven, or food grade NaOH). You just add enough base to drive the solution to pH 9-10 range and the keep it heated a while longer.

The syrup I've made it's full of flavor (nuts, dates, bread, caramel, toffee) and it's better than dark Belgian syrup bought from Belgium.
 
I've become pretty convinced homemade candi syrup can't easily be made in a single vessel. I've been able to get the dark fruit flavors (plums/raisins, etc), burnt sugar flavors, and dark chocolate flavors, but never all together. Right now I'm trying to maximize the individual flavors I'm looking for, then trying to figure out a ratio to blend them.
 
I've been able to get the dark fruit flavors (plums/raisins, etc), burnt sugar flavors, and dark chocolate flavors, but never all together.

You know Ive noticed the same thing, problem with having to blend though is its a PITA to have to make several types and then mix.
 
If sugardude is right, and they're taking run-off syrups at different stages in the processing and inverting it, then it's most likely a mix of some sort. I know it's a PITA but I've done enough trial batches (100+ now) to be convinced you can't get all the flavors you want from one perfect combination of ingredients, pH and temp.
 
If sugardude is right, and they're taking run-off syrups at different stages in the processing and inverting it, then it's most likely a mix of some sort. I know it's a PITA but I've done enough trial batches (100+ now) to be convinced you can't get all the flavors you want from one perfect combination of ingredients, pH and temp.

Im pretty sure the syrup is being taken off at different stages, the repeated heating/cooling is most likely from the syrup being reintroduced to start the process again

Im also thinking they arent inverting the syrup, even if 0.1% of the sugar is inverted in the process, this will be a fairly significant amount when your processing tons a day.

When I did my trials I didnt invert the sugar before heating it at an elevated temp and got significant color change, so some inversion still happens even at the elevated ph(used to slow inversion) my "syrup" formed a hard slightly plastic blob afterwards

have you found a source for other amino acids? Ive thought about using nutritional supplements but I dunno about fillers
 
I've actually had mixed results with the isolated amino nutritional supplements I've tried. Lysene will give a really strong toasted bread, then later almond flavor/aroma, that's interesting, but not exactly what I'm going for.

I'm pretty sure the dark fruit flavors are more of a caramelization flavor, and I think the burnt sugar is more of a caramelization flavor, although you can get the toasty/nutty/chocolatey flavors from much lower temperatures.

The problem I think is that a lot of the target compounds have a lot of intermediate stages that require precursors. So the exact mix of amino acids plays a big role in the results.
 

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