concrete fermenters??

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DannyD

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I see the latest thing in the wine industry is the concrete fermentor thing, Can we also make beer in one? (dont know if there is maybe already posts on this)
 
Concrete fermenter? It would have to be lined with something. Concrete absorbs water and it would be nearly next to impossible to clean.
 
He's right.

Concrete%2Bfermenter.JPG


Concrete Fermentation Tanks

I'm pretty sure if they can make wine in them they can make beer.
 
Im building one +/- 30L, (conical square/pyramid?) just for fun! heard it has good thermal qualities.
 
That looks like something the rich wine industry would like to have in their cellars. I like the look of SS much better anyways. More function, less feng shui
 
Just imagine caring a 2 ton concrete fermenter downstairs to the basement for fermentation and later back upstairs to rack the beer into a keg... Ouch, my back hurts already :)
 
mmmm.....the paradox of brewing!!!!!, but think of the advantages, you can build a basement full of natuarly cool holding tanks and just carry the 2 kg pump and lines. cement and stone is far less expensive then SS, and easy to work with too. :cool:
 
Funny, I was thinking of this the other day. You can use additives to seal it or even tile and seal. Use cylinder formwork to shape it. Run a copper coil within to manage temp
 
Interesting-

Wineries in France and elsewhere have used concrete tanks for at least a century, drawing the inspiration for such vessels from antiquity, when clay or ceramic containers were used for wine Over the past half century, stainless steel tanks have pushed out both concrete and wood fermenters (although wood is making a comeback for premium wines).
 
I wonder if they have rebar in them? If they do, it will rust, then leach back into the liquid. Or they could epoxy coat, use fiber reinforcing, etc. I'll stick with glass.
 
Please tell me you are all joking.

From Revvy's link "Concrete “breaths” like oak. It is semi-permeable which concentrates the wine, while gently diffusing oxygen without adding oak character."

While I think they meant "breathes"... that ain't good for beer.
 
You can't really add those generalities about concrete anymore. There is some amazing things they can do with new formulas.


FYI, stainless rusts eventually as well.
 
I wonder if they have rebar in them? If they do, it will rust, then leach back into the liquid. Or they could epoxy coat, use fiber reinforcing, etc. I'll stick with glass.

Rebar doesn't rust unless it gets exposed. As long as you have good concrete coverage over the bar you're OK. Either way, the I can't imagine using concrete with a liner or good sealant.
 
wouldn't you just float it sealed with a plaster? it creates a pretty smooth surface that would be similar to a clay pot.

Of course for that matter, you could just use clay too i suppose. unless to are making a massive vessel, clay fired or not would be a good choice if you wanted to go with earthen materials.... the ultimate hippie home brew.
 
Why? It would be a nightmare to clean properly. Why not just buy a giant plastic trashcan like everyone else :p

Seriously, it will not be good for beer. For all the reasons it works for wine it will be detrimental to fermenting beer.
 
Seems like you would need a good Elastomeric penetrating sealer to fill the pores to ensure that it doesn't harbor bacteria? Otherwise you would need to soak in Starsan or something for a long time to ensure sanitation?
 
All concrete fermenters are glass lined internally. The wine doesn't touch the concrete. And yes they have been used for many years, especially in the old world. There are many in Italy, Spain, etc...

Unlike brewers, wine makers fear Brettanomyces and if you get it in your winery, it is almost impossible to get out without tearing down the winery (wooden) and constructing a new one (concrete). That's why you see many modern wineries are not made of wood anymore. The Brett will hang out eating the resin in the wood until something with more sugar like grape juice comes along.

Sounds like a great reason to use concrete fermenters too. Also, I've heard some cockamamie winemakers claim some BS that concrete is gentler on the wine, I'm guessing because of some ionic charge in the metal.... but really I don't believe that at all. It's just hype. Winemakers are salesman too.
 
There is no mention of glass on the website of the above mentioned "egg" fermeters, they aslo give instruction on how to treat the cement with tartaric acid before use, to reduce the calcium carbonate(or something) from the cement.

WHAT ABOUT YORKSHIRE SQUARES THEN? open AND made from rock / slate ect.....
 
I think you all are just in denial! If one looks at the normal honey bee, its wings are to small and body to large and on paper.... it should not fly, but yet.......zoom zoom (and the mead guys are still happy)
 
Cool. That's news to me. Every winemaker I've spoken to (a lot, I'm in the business) uses glass lined concrete. That's the norm. Never heard a yorkshire square used for wine.

I'd be worried about the wine and concrete reacting. Wine is very acidic. Anyone that has concrete countertops knows that it will react to acidic things.
 
I will be sure to post my results :rockin: (And start a revelution! :cross:??)
just waiting for my malt


(sorry to the vendors, but is it just me or is it a helova lot cheaper to buy bulk? $41 (if converted) for 50 kg malt? and like $10 for 0.5kg hops)
 
If you aren't satisfied by the huge variety of additives for the concrete. You can coat with epoxy. I would give it a while for off gasing to minimize. Glass tile can be used with sealed grout as well.
 
The whole idea seems strange to me. using a porous material like concrete or cenemt just screems Bacteria! Then there is the whole leeching of chemicals into the finished product. Ok so you line it with something.... well if you tile it there will be grout lines (see the first 2 issues). So you use an epoxy grout (see the third issue). Hmmmmm
it doesnt sound too appealing to me. By the time you are done, you could have purchased a SS conical that doesnt have as many issues(of course there are a few areas that attention needs to be given) to worry about and yes temp control is a biggie! Even plastic is a better choice. There is a reason metal has been used for centuries.

Well that is only my opion... like i tell my son, opions are like ___ _____ everyone has one and they all stink!
 
wow some really hysterical comments on here! in seriousness its pretty interesting to think about the possible positive effects of fermenting in concrete, but I can't think they would ever outweight (sic) the negatives. But I saw an odd thing on pbs last night about how in Jesus' day they used to crush grapes in trenches in the mountainside, and it would run off and ferment in deeper holes in the rock. I guess they were not so pnoid about brett in those days ! and obviously did not have ss, hdpe or the almighty StarSan.

But it got me thinking how interesting to use more modern technology to create cavities in certain types of rock - at certain depths to maintain temp. I don't have any real understanding of engineering or blasting or geology but it would seem pretty doable for some entrepreneuring microbrewery... the type that likes to push boundaries and then market the hell out of that boundary-pushing (DFH? ;), but with mineral properties and natural interaction with the earth, and even allowing the stone to dictate fermentation temp - it all sounds pretty interesting in a hippy-dippy non-sanitary kind of way.

Anyone live near Heuco Tanks, Texas? Might be a good place for an open-earth ferm experiment.
 
One good thing I can see is that if your house happens to burn down, your fermenters would be standing strong!
 
wow some really hysterical comments on here! in seriousness its pretty interesting to think about the possible positive effects of fermenting in concrete, but I can't think they would ever outweight (sic) the negatives. But I saw an odd thing on pbs last night about how in Jesus' day they used to crush grapes in trenches in the mountainside, and it would run off and ferment in deeper holes in the rock. I guess they were not so pnoid about brett in those days ! and obviously did not have ss, hdpe or the almighty StarSan.

But it got me thinking how interesting to use more modern technology to create cavities in certain types of rock - at certain depths to maintain temp. I don't have any real understanding of engineering or blasting or geology but it would seem pretty doable for some entrepreneuring microbrewery... the type that likes to push boundaries and then market the hell out of that boundary-pushing (DFH? ;), but with mineral properties and natural interaction with the earth, and even allowing the stone to dictate fermentation temp - it all sounds pretty interesting in a hippy-dippy non-sanitary kind of way.

Anyone live near Heuco Tanks, Texas? Might be a good place for an open-earth ferm experiment.

I did the degree thing in geology and your comment sparked my imagination. Ive lived in Texas most of my life and there are hundreds if not thousands of acres of granite domes and outcrops. you could in theory cut out a cylinder in the top of the granite, build a building over it and voila! ground fermenters! granite is not that porous so it could work from that stand point, but the big issue would be leaching.

Volcanic rocks can carry many toxic minerals and granite is know to have radioactive isotopes.

interesting thought tho!
 
I have a possible lining solution for you. There's a 2 part epoxy I use in potable water facilities as a lining, and to repair cracks. I use it in steel and concrete tanks with excelent results. It's called "Aquatapoxy" and the formula you want to buy is "A-6", which is their "Coating" formula. As long as the concrete is clean, it will make a permanent bond. It will harden as hard as a rock and will be as smooth as glass if applied properly. One set (2 gallons) will be more than enough. It's fairly expensive, I pay $146 for a set, but I imagine anyone looking to build a concrete fermentor isn't pinching pennies. I think it can be purchased in pints also, but I'm not sure.

It's certified for use in drinking water, so I imagine it would be fine in a fermentor.

Specific certifications are:
-ANSI/NSF 61, for use in "Drinking Water System Components".
-ANSI/AWWA C 210-03, "Liquid-Epoxy Coating Systems for the Interior and Exterior of Steel Water Pipelines".
-USDA, for application to surfaces where there is a possiblility of incidental food contact


Info Page: AquataPoxy A-6 Liink

Where to buy: http://cohesantmaterials.com/WheretoBuy.aspx

I hope that helps.
 

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