CAMRA / "Real" Ale

I spent some time browsing through the CAMRA web page earlier today. Admittedly, I had never heard of this organization before though I am familiar with the cask-conditioned process. What struck me about CAMRA is what I perceive to be a condescending, arrogant and overly political set of beliefs that do not seem to jive with the beer / homebrewing community that I am familiar with.

First off, CAMRA lost me at first glance with this whole “Real Ale” name. It is simply absurd. They could have chosen to simply call the beer that they cherish “cask conditioned ale” – which is what it is. A simple, descriptive and accurate name. Instead, they needed to call is “Real”. They induced opinion into a name. (You could say that they, in effect, force carbonated the name for their beer. They did not let it naturally ferment. ) Regardless, this is so arrogant that it amazes me that people are willing to buy into this! Do they really believe that they alone have the authority to deem what beer is “real” and what beer is “fake”? I mean, if I cook up a 5 gallon batch of beer, bottle condition half of it and keg half (force carbonating it) then I only got 2.5 gallons of REAL BEER? It is just a stupid, divisive point. And where do they draw the line with evolving methods of production and technology? As I mentioned in a previous post, do they practice Real Medicine (no anesthesia, sanitization, modern equipment pushed on the doctors by the big insurance corporations), Real Transportation (animals) and Real Communication (no telephones, no email, no internet that The Man could control)?

To me, this is a direct parallel to the all grain VS. extract brewing eternal argument. There are definitely arrogant people out there who insist that extract brewing is not brewing (it is, therefore, FAKE). I believe it was The Bird who said, in response to this claim in a recent thread, “Homebrewers aren’t elitists.” I thought that was a great response, and an accurate one. What makes this CAMRA organization so, well, elitist? And militant. Their web page makes them come across like the NRA.

Don’t get me wrong – I am definitely interested in cask conditioning. I think it is fascinating and also important to understand why some still like to use this process. I’m all about historical methods of brewing. I am more reacting to CAMRA’s wording and high-horse attitude, not necessarily their interest in cask conditioning.

....Maybe there is some sort of cultural translation I’m missing here, but I doubt it. I’ll say what I said before, they simply come across as Real A**holes.

Interested to see some others take on this.

I don't know much about CAMRA, but the site does seem a bit arrogant, in true Brit fashion.

But take a look at their definition:

"Also known as "cask conditioned" beer; the fundamental distinction between real and other ales is that the yeast is still present in the container from which the beer is served, although it will have settled to the bottom and is not poured into the glass."​

Sounds like...every beer I've ever made.

But I feel you---these guys sound like the kind of people Papazian warns you about: those that get too serious about beer and brewing. Once you get too serious about it, you've defeated the purpose of it in the first place.

Try a cask conditioned ale sometime.

They are no big deal.

They put the beer in huge wooden casks that only allow a small amount of co2 pressure to build up. The resulting beer is mildly carbed. The they serve the beer without using co2 to push it. they use plain air or gravity to serve the beer. As a result it gets exposed to oxygen.

The oxygen exposure takes the beer through a rapid degredation which makes for a very interesting brew since it tastes different everyday.

I guess that is Ok if you like to drink different beer everyday. I am partial to the way my beer tastes and I want it to taste the same everytime I pour a glass.

So....cask conditioning is for the birds.

"Real Ale" lovers can usually tell the age of the beer by the way it tastes.

Doug, by their own definition, any brew that is naturally carbonated is "Real Ale". They don't specify that it has to be aged in a cask.

yep, but that is the technical definition. They are referring to cask conditioned ales.

They are just stuck in the past. They are adhering to a style that was created by the absence of modern refridgeration and Bottled CO2.

They also say a real ale is served from the container that still contains yeast. Most bottles that contain homebrew are "Containers that you serve from that contain the yeast".
So whoppity do!

Hell, all of my kegs have yeast in the bottom when I clean them, so my Ales are "Real Ales"!

Hmm?? I am not sure how to respond to this thread, but I have a very different take on this issue, and I don't want to pi$$ anyone off. Oh well . . .

First of all, CAMRA's guidelines suggest that all of our homebrewed beers which are bottle conditioned would be considered "real ale." So, we can be assured that their snobbery would support our own snobbery in terms of what classifies as CAMRA-approved. Of course, this would not apply to the force-carbonating that most of us keggers do. They would, however, at least be a little satisfied that we don't filter our beer - well, some of us don't.

As for the snobbery part. You must be hanging out with a different set of homebrewers than I have been, b/c there is a bit of snobbery in what we do [before the flaming commences, let me remind you of the inclusive pronoun I just used - i am including myself]. After all, just mention BMC around here and you'll see the snobbery. Go a step further and claim that BMC is not a low quality beer, it is just a "new" style of beer - american light lager - and even more snobbery will emerge. I would wager that most of us have snobbed it up when sitting around a table having beers with our non-brewing friends. We can't help letting our brew-knowledge emerge, making subtle remarks about what our friends order and its relative quality to other "good" beers, etc. Call it hubris, but I suspect that most of our friends call us beer snobs.

One more thing - what is your take on the Rheinheitsgebot (sp?)? After all, here is a piece of legislation that dictated how brewers could make beer. I believe that one incarnation of the law actually regulated the force carbonating of beer - it had to be done naturally. I see much affinity between this traditional German beer law and the spirit of CAMRA.

Oh Oh Oh . . .just one more thing. If you get a chance to have a good cask conditioned real ale . . . the difference is noticeable and profound, IMO.

dougjones31 said:

yep, but that is the technical definition. They are referring to cask conditioned ales.

They are just stuck in the past. They are adhering to a style that was created by the absence of modern refridgeration and Bottled CO2.

They also say a real ale is served from the container that still contains yeast. Most bottles that Contain homebrew are "Containers that you serve from that contain the yeast".
So whoppity do!

Click to expand...

Yeah . . . who do they think they are . . . upholding tradition and all. Losers.

:cross:

sonvolt said:

One more thing - what is your take on the Rheinheitsgebot (sp?)? After all, here is a piece of legislation that dictated how brewers could make beer. I believe that one incarnation of the law actually regulated the force carbonating of beer - it had to be done naturally. I see much affinity between this traditional German beer law and the spirit of CAMRA.

Click to expand...

They can force carb beer by capturing the co2 from the fermentation process and storing it in tanks to force carb with. The co2 is then a natural byproduct of the actual fermentation of the beer and they can reuse it.

The CAMRA hompage has this on it.......Because the yeast is still alive, the process of fermentation continues in the cask or bottle on the way to the consumer ensuring a fresh and natural taste.


That is misinformation and BS. When fermentation is complete the yeast is dormant and is not going to do anything to keep the beer fresh.

This is a quote from CAMRA's website:

Real ale is a living fresh beer that undergoes a natural second fermentation in the cask. Like any natural product, the beer will age and go off, and therefore must be drunk within a strict timescale. It requires care in handling on its way to the pub, and care within the pub to bring it to perfection. However, real ale can reach its full flavour potential, without filtration, pasteurisation and added gas.

Click to expand...

I guess that I don't know how any beer drinker could be dissapointed in a consumer advocacy group whose purpose is to ensure that consumers can get a "natural product" which requires "care in handling."

On the other hand, the alternative is mass-produced, pasteurized, big-brewer product . . . which the market shows us that most people prefer.

OK . . . I'll shut up now.

The CAMRA is just another useless organization that asks for donations that just go into the pockets of the poeple who dreamed up the organization.

If they do not help me brew my beer then I could give a rat's ass about them.

dougjones31 said:

Try a cask conditioned ale sometime...They put the beer in huge wooden casks that only allow a small amount of co2 pressure to build up. The resulting beer is mildly carbed. The they serve the beer without using co2 to push it. they use plain air or gravity to serve the beer. As a result it gets exposed to oxygen...The oxygen exposure takes the beer through a rapid degredation which makes for a very interesting brew since it tastes different everyday...So....cask conditioning is for the birds...

Click to expand...

This is the same with my 5 liter mini-kegs...gravity feed...if you open it, you have to finish it! Simple!

I don'y know much about it, but I always had the impression that many brewers and drinkers were concerned that British pub beer was becoming too much like BMC beer and was starting to have too many adjuncts.

To bottom line it, is it that much different than the Germans regulating Kolsh vs. Kolsh style, the Belgains with Lambic and Lambic style, and Trappist beer when there isn't even a common Trappist style and most of the brewing process isn't done by the monks?

Personally, I like what Michael Lewis says in the classic beer style series book 10 on Stouts, "I have experienced too often that a modern beer is accused of not being a 'true' beer style. It might be useful to remind ourselves that the last person to drink such a 'true' product probably died half a century to two ago. So I wonder how the critic can (1) be so sure it's not the same; (2) expect it to be the same; and (3) want it to be the same."

sonvolt said:

Hmm?? I am not sure how to respond to this thread, but I have a very different take on this issue, and I don't want to pi$$ anyone off. Oh well . .

Click to expand...

I definitely won't end up pis'd off, and mostly I don't want this to turn into an argument. I am more interested to see if others picked up on the tone I though I was getting from the CAMRA web site. No anger here!!!

Also, if sonvolt is a jay farrar reference, two thumbs up. i'm a huge farray/tweedy/tupelo/wilco fan.

sonvolt said:

As for the snobbery part. You must be hanging out with a different set of homebrewers than I have been, b/c there is a bit of snobbery in what we do [before the flaming commences, let me remind you of the inclusive pronoun I just used - i am including myself]. After all, just mention BMC around here and you'll see the snobbery. Go a step further and claim that BMC is not a low quality beer, it is just a "new" style of beer - american light lager - and even more snobbery will emerge. I would wager that most of us have snobbed it up when sitting around a table having beers with our non-brewing friends. We can't help letting our brew-knowledge emerge, making subtle remarks about what our friends order and its relative quality to other "good" beers, etc. Call it hubris, but I suspect that most of our friends call us beer snobs.

Click to expand...

I've met some people who might fall into what you are describing, but I still do not hold those grudges....or know many people at all who do. I'm not going to defend the beer produced by BMC, but I think it is silly to fault them for being a successful/wordlwide business. Don't hate them just because 99.9% of people in Earth love the stuff, dislike them because their end result product isn't that good. CAMRA/hater types would be the kind of people who could try a force carbonated beer disguised as bottle conditioned and praise it.....only to change their opinion of the end product once they were told it's wasn't aged in a wood barrel and sucked out with a hand pump.

It would be akin to someone telling me my homebrew was bad because I used a wort chiller to cool the wort instead of letting it cool by itself.

sonvolt said:

One more thing - what is your take on the Rheinheitsgebot (sp?)? After all, here is a piece of legislation that dictated how brewers could make beer. I believe that one incarnation of the law actually regulated the force carbonating of beer - it had to be done naturally. I see much affinity between this traditional German beer law and the spirit of CAMRA.

Click to expand...

I think that law governing the creation of foods outside of the safety/sanitary scope is overkill. Keep in mind, I am American and this is more how my society functions. Maybe if Germans think that beer is so importantly tied to their history and culture they should look for the gov't to "protect" it. However, why not just let companies make whatever type of beer they want? If said companies chose to adhere to "the law" then they can label it as such, and if their citizens were so hung up on tradition then non-gov't recipe beer wouldn't sell, would it?

sonvolt said:

Oh Oh Oh . . .just one more thing. If you get a chance to have a good cask conditioned real ale . . . the difference is noticeable and profound, IMO.

Click to expand...

I've tried some 4-5 times at beer tastings and they were interesting. As I hope I made clear in the first post, I am not "against" the process, just CAMRA's specific delivery of their message. Regarding the process, it is something I doubt I'll ever get into. Consistency and cleanliness are paramount to me, I don't see taking a stand on carbonation to have a beer that is only good for a small window of time....during which the product can vary greatly in taste and overall quality. I'll stay with the CO2, thank you!!!!

I think that law governing the creation of foods outside of the safety/sanitary scope is overkill. Keep in mind, I am American and this is more how my society functions.

Click to expand...

If you think that that's how this society (American) functions, well, I urge you to go outside, cover your eyes, spin around a few times, and throw a rock. I'd be willing to bet a few benjamins that whatever the rock happened to hit, there is a plethora of laws pertaining to it.

Or just try getting a license to sell your homebrew. Then you'll see how "this society functions". If you think we're "free", well, you obviously haven't looked at the US code lately. Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm just tired of people here acting like this is the "land of the free". Based on what? The fact that we're not quite as socialist as the EU? All this rhetoric of freedom and liberty is just that: rhetoric.

We may not have the Rheinhetsgebot, but there are still counties here that are completely "dry". If I had to choose, I think I'd take the Rheinhetsgebot...

Evan! said:

If you think that that's how this society (American) functions, well, I urge you to go outside, cover your eyes, spin around a few times, and throw a rock. I'd be willing to bet a few benjamins that whatever the rock happened to hit, there is a plethora of laws pertaining to it.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about food, not people's cars, houses and property. And yes, if I went outside and threw a rock at something, there should be a law to define my crime and my punishment. Whats the problem in that?

Evan! said:

Or just try getting a license to sell your homebrew. Then you'll see how "this society functions". If you think we're "free", well, you obviously haven't looked at the US code lately. Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm just tired of people here acting like this is the "land of the free". Based on what? The fact that we're not quite as socialist as the EU? All this rhetoric of freedom and liberty is just that: rhetoric.

Click to expand...

Me selling my homebrew would directly affect the health of others. It should be regulated. It is regulated. It is no big deal. And yes, I do feel "free". What specific day-to-day things make you hate this country so much?

Getting back to beer......we were talking about the ability to follow a recipe to make a food product. You are free to do that here, are you not?? Nobody said it has to be easy to get permits to sell /distribute a homemade item, but it is very, very legal. I bet you could even check out an Idiot's Guide to Starting You Own Food Service Business at your local free library.

Evan! said:

We may not have the Rheinhetsgebot, but there are still counties here that are completely "dry". If I had to choose, I think I'd take the Rheinhetsgebot...

Click to expand...

Sooooooo......you ran into that post on an America-is-not-free freight train then you end by suggesting you'd support a law that would restrict what type of beer you could brew? I think these thoughts need another 30 minute boil

Fiery Sword said:

I'm talking about food, not people's cars, houses and property. And yes, if I went outside and threw a rock at something, there should be a law to define my crime and my punishment. Whats the problem in that?

Click to expand...

You know that's not what I meant. What I meant was, there's a virtual law library pertaining to every single thing we do, whether there are true externalities involved or not.

Me selling my homebrew would directly affect the health of others. It should be regulated. It is regulated. It is no big deal. And yes, I do feel "free". What specific day-to-day things make you hate this country so much?

Click to expand...

First off, the market would surely (and easily) weed out snake-oil peddlers. Second, why not let me choose? Why can't I, as a conscious adult, choose to buy beer from an unlicensed vendor legally? And FWIW, I never said I hated this country, but hey, way to inject some strawmen into the discussion! In fact, that I love this country is precisely why I care. What makes me feel that I'm not free, you may ask? The fact that pretty much everything I do is regulated and restricted, and we are treated like children who are unable to make informed decisions without the iron fist of the armed government intervening.

Nobody said it has to be easy to get permits to sell /distribute a homemade item, but it is very, very legal. I bet you could even check out an Idiot's Guide to Starting You Own Food Service Business at your local free library.

Click to expand...

A) "Nobody said is has to be easy"? Since when are positive rights the baseline? You could use that line to justify pretty much any intrusion on your rights. "Nobody said that you should be able to homebrew". Because, after all, they didn't, did they? Homebrewing isn't mentioned in the Constitution, in the BOR, in the Declaration...so why do we have the right to homebrew? For more information on what I'm talking about, do a little reading up on Negative Rights vs. Positive Rights, as well as Natural Rights.

B) That library ain't "free". It's built with tax dollars forcibly taken from the populace. Just so you know.

Sooooooo......you ran into that post on an America-is-not-free freight train then you end by suggesting you'd support a law that would restrict what type of beer you could brew? I think these thoughts need another 30 minute boil

Click to expand...

Drrrr...read it again. I said that if I had to choose, I would take the Rheinhetsgebot over prohibition. That doesn't mean that I support the Rheinhetsgebot. If I said, "if I had to choose between cutting off my toe, and cutting off my arm, I would choose cutting off my toe", that doesn't mean that I'd actually like to cut off my toe.

Evan! said:

You know that's not what I meant. What I meant was, there's a virtual law library pertaining to every single thing we do, whether there are true externalities involved or not.

Click to expand...

I did not know that's what you meant, and I still don't see that it is applicable. You were insinuating that all these "laws" are bad. I was simply pointing out that I'm not going to say all laws are bad. Those laws are what defines our freedom. You seem to see that as limiting your freedom, and in a way that is a totally valid, though pessimistic and cynical, viewpoint.

Evan! said:

Why can't I, as a conscious adult, choose to buy beer from an unlicensed vendor legally?

Click to expand...

Why can't you chose to apply for the correct/applicable permits to demonstrate that you are making a safe product if you really want to sell your beer? When you say that the "market will weed out snake-oil vendors" what do you mean, that word will spread that Joe's Homebrew was making people extremely sick and that they should be avoided? I'd prefer that Joe's Homebrew had to extablish, on record, a standard baseline of cleanliness and process before the conscious public were to put themselves at risk.

Evan! said:

And FWIW, I never said I hated this country, but hey, way to inject some strawmen into the discussion! In fact, that I love this country is precisely why I care. What makes me feel that I'm not free, you may ask? The fact that pretty much everything I do is regulated and restricted, and we are treated like children who are unable to make informed decisions without the iron fist of the armed government intervening.

Click to expand...

Still sounds to me that you hate this country. I really don't want to come across as personally attacking you because it is perfectly cool to be so critical of the US, but don't expect me to be able to deduce your love of America by decoding your comments like "iron fist of the armed government", saying how freedom is just a rhetorical claim and not a fact, etc. etc. You sound to me like you want this country to be a place it was not, is not, and will not be. From your 2-d internet type on the screen alone, I'm not off base thinking that's hatred.

Evan! said:

Homebrewing isn't mentioned in the Constitution, in the BOR, in the Declaration...

Click to expand...

Neither is kiddie porn, identity theft, driving your speedboat drunk, etc. I've heard this type argument dozens of time in equally as anti-US lazy "rights" arguments.

Evan! said:

For more information on what I'm talking about, do a little reading up on Negative Rights vs. Positive Rights, as well as Natural Rights.

Click to expand...

Sorry, it might be very interesting, but I'm reading too much homebrew talk right now for any distractions.

Evan! said:

B) That library ain't "free". It's built with tax dollars forcibly taken from the populace. Just so you know.

Click to expand...

Here's where I say "you know what I meant......" - the information there is free to you, even if you use it to harm, challenge, or overthrow the government.

The bottom line is that you can brew beer in the US, you can drink beer in the US, and you can do so in any style you like. If you desire to sell it, you simply have to follow the rules. If your county is dry, start a petition to change that. Get it on the ballot. You are free to! If your fellow townspeople disagree with you, then move somewhere else if it means that much to you! Don't let The Man keep you down, don't fear the Armed and Mean Governemnt! I'm not sure what the specific local laws are where you live, but here I can, and do, walk around with a Class A License to Carry. The gov't isn't the only one who can be armed. :rockin: :rockin:
In the end, man, I feel pretty free in the homebrewing arts. The government hasn't crept into my fermenter just yet. I think that I hear a lot of the things that you are saying, just not in a way that is applicable to how I'm thinking about this issue. I appreciate the responses, though, and I hope I don't come across as confrontational......good discussion!

dougjones31 said:

The CAMRA hompage has this on it.......Because the yeast is still alive, the process of fermentation continues in the cask or bottle on the way to the consumer ensuring a fresh and natural taste.

That is misinformation and BS. When fermentation is complete the yeast is dormant and is not going to do anything to keep the beer fresh.

Click to expand...

I'd have to disagree with that. While most of the yeast are dormant, some are still kicking and working on small amounts of residual sugars left in the beer. This is the reason beer tastes different after aging, and why malty beers such as barleywine change so drastically after years of aging.

The whole CAMRA ordeal is interesting. On the one hand, I think it's a nice goal and it's nice to see people caring about their beer. On the other hand, restricting a term such as 'real ale' to only beers that meet their narrow defenition, well, I find that a bit offensive.

I am afraid that this discussion will go nowhere new if we continue thinking about CAMRA outside the historical moment that it was conceived. It is too easy for us in these post-microbrew revolution days to minimize the importance of what CAMRA stands for. After all, I can go to any corner liquor store, drug store, grocery store, or Walmart and pick up any one of a dozen or more really good microbrewed beers.

Now, I was born in the USA in 1974, so there is no way that I can place myself in the shoes of an ale imbiber in Britain during the 1970s. However, from my understanding CAMRA was conceived during a time when big-brewer commercial products were destroying the smaller ale brewers.

What if the microbrew trend that we are enjoying right now makes a dramatic turn-around. What if - twenty years from now - we went to our liquor stores and could not find a bottle conditioned ale on the shelf? What if our choices were limited (because of the market, economy, whatever) to BMC?

I know what I would do. I would start a consumer group as a way of reviving and maintain that great tradition of American craftbrews and microbrews. It seems to me that CAMRA is trying to keep a distinctly British/English tradition alive. Call it reactionary, conservative, or luddite . . . but I find it worthy of respect.

That being said . . . one of my good friends is the owner of a local brewpup in Peoria, Il. He is from Scotland . . . and he hates CAMRA with a passion, referring to them as CAMRANazis.

Aren't there some HBT posters from the British Isles around here? I wonder what they have to say about it?

dougjones31 said:

The CAMRA is just another useless organization that asks for donations that just go into the pockets of the poeple who dreamed up the organization.

If they do not help me brew my beer then I could give a rat's ass about them.

Click to expand...

Agreed. They can do whatever they want, but I'll just happily ignore them.

Fiery Sword said:

I did not know that's what you meant, and I still don't see that it is applicable. You were insinuating that all these "laws" are bad. I was simply pointing out that I'm not going to say all laws are bad. Those laws are what defines our freedom. You seem to see that as limiting your freedom, and in a way that is a totally valid, though pessimistic and cynical, viewpoint.

Click to expand...

I think what he was trying to say is that you can't turn around without running into a law regulating almost every aspect of our daily lives. Not all laws are bad, but many many laws are overreaching and unnecessary.

Why can't you chose to apply for the correct/applicable permits to demonstrate that you are making a safe product if you really want to sell your beer? When you say that the "market will weed out snake-oil vendors" what do you mean, that word will spread that Joe's Homebrew was making people extremely sick and that they should be avoided? I'd prefer that Joe's Homebrew had to extablish, on record, a standard baseline of cleanliness and process before the conscious public were to put themselves at risk.

Click to expand...

I'd rather just choose to brew and sell my beer without the government wanting to butt in. And truly, the only reason you have to get permits is because the government wants a cut of the action. In Texas, it's $1500 to get a brewing permit! That's a lot of money. And even with that permit, you can't sell your beer; you have to get a distributor to do it for you. I don't think that makes any sense. We all already share our homebrews with friends. Why not let word of mouth spread about what we do and be allowed to sell our brews? If you're drinking your own product, and your friends are drinking it without any problem, who's to say you can't just take that next step and sell it? No harm comes of it.

Still sounds to me that you hate this country. I really don't want to come across as personally attacking you because it is perfectly cool to be so critical of the US, but don't expect me to be able to deduce your love of America by decoding your comments like "iron fist of the armed government", saying how freedom is just a rhetorical claim and not a fact, etc. etc. You sound to me like you want this country to be a place it was not, is not, and will not be. From your 2-d internet type on the screen alone, I'm not off base thinking that's hatred.

Click to expand...

IMO, this country is the best around, but it still needs improvement. We're getting taxed, regulated, and lawyered into a corner.

Here's where I say "you know what I meant......" - the information there is free to you, even if you use it to harm, challenge, or overthrow the government.

The bottom line is that you can brew beer in the US, you can drink beer in the US, and you can do so in any style you like. If you desire to sell it, you simply have to follow the rules. If your county is dry, start a petition to change that. Get it on the ballot. You are free to! If your fellow townspeople disagree with you, then move somewhere else if it means that much to you! Don't let The Man keep you down, don't fear the Armed and Mean Governemnt! I'm not sure what the specific local laws are where you live, but here I can, and do, walk around with a Class A License to Carry. The gov't isn't the only one who can be armed. :rockin: :rockin:
In the end, man, I feel pretty free in the homebrewing arts. The government hasn't crept into my fermenter just yet. I think that I hear a lot of the things that you are saying, just not in a way that is applicable to how I'm thinking about this issue. I appreciate the responses, though, and I hope I don't come across as confrontational......good discussion!

Click to expand...

For me, really, it just comes down the fact that I don't appreciate someone else coming along and saying that I can't be trusted to handle my own business, and they want to meddle in it. We're at a point on a spectrum between the free market and socialism, and we've been drifting and continue to drift towards socialism. The more the government interferes in our ability to buy and sell goods and services, the worse off we'll all be.

Fiery Sword said:

I did not know that's what you meant, and I still don't see that it is applicable. You were insinuating that all these "laws" are bad. I was simply pointing out that I'm not going to say all laws are bad. Those laws are what defines our freedom. You seem to see that as limiting your freedom, and in a way that is a totally valid, though pessimistic and cynical, viewpoint.

Click to expand...

All I was insinuating was that we're inundated with laws, regulations and restrictions at every turn. No, not all of them are bad, but many of them are just an example of an overreaching state.

Why can't you chose to apply for the correct/applicable permits to demonstrate that you are making a safe product if you really want to sell your beer?

Click to expand...

Because, as Torchiest also noted, most of these "permits" are so expensive and restrictive that they serve not to protect the public, but to protect the current bluechippers in that particular industry from competition, as well as line the pockets of the government. Getting a permit is not as simple as just applying. You have to meet myriad qualifications, many of which cannot be obtained without substantial infrastructure investments, and then you have to pay the government large sums of money. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.

When you say that the "market will weed out snake-oil vendors" what do you mean, that word will spread that Joe's Homebrew was making people extremely sick and that they should be avoided?

Click to expand...

I mean that, today, we have many non-governmental consumer advocate and information outfits, like Consumer Reports. At the same time, if Joe's Homebrew WAS making people sick, and it could be proven that said sickness was due to Joe's negligence, then a civil or criminal suit against Joe would have merit. Look at the recent suit that was brought (and won) against the makers of Zicam. A bunch of folks lost their sense of smell from using it. Now, you can be assured that Zicam will no longer be on the shelves, because nobody will buy it any more. We need consumer protection from negligence, but preemptive licensing of pretty much everything we do is not the answer. There are middle grounds that are preferable, somewhere between zero accountability and the state we have today.

I'd prefer that Joe's Homebrew had to extablish, on record, a standard baseline of cleanliness and process before the conscious public were to put themselves at risk.

Click to expand...

Risk is a part of life, unfortunately. Believe me, getting into a car and driving to the 7-11 poses much more of a risk than drinking a bottle of beer. You may "prefer" that, but don't let your preferences rule the lives of others.

Still sounds to me that you hate this country. I really don't want to come across as personally attacking you because it is perfectly cool to be so critical of the US, but don't expect me to be able to deduce your love of America by decoding your comments like "iron fist of the armed government", saying how freedom is just a rhetorical claim and not a fact, etc. etc. You sound to me like you want this country to be a place it was not, is not, and will not be. From your 2-d internet type on the screen alone, I'm not off base thinking that's hatred.

Click to expand...

I'm not gonna argue this point. If you equate criticizing the overreaching government with hatred of this country, then, well, you're welcome to your opinion. This country is still the best in the world...all I'm saying is that it could be improved.

Neither is kiddie porn, identity theft, driving your speedboat drunk, etc. I've heard this type argument dozens of time in equally as anti-US lazy "rights" arguments.

Click to expand...

But YOU are the one that brought it up, Fiery Sword. You were the one that said "nobody ever said that _____ had to be easy"; in other words, you posited the theory of positive rights---the idea that the only rights we have are the rights that the government so generously bestows upon us---and I was arguing against that idea.

Sorry, it might be very interesting, but I'm reading too much homebrew talk right now for any distractions.

Click to expand...

Oh well...if you ever do have the time, you should definitely check it out.

The bottom line is that you can brew beer in the US, you can drink beer in the US, and you can do so in any style you like. If you desire to sell it, you simply have to follow the rules. If your county is dry, start a petition to change that. Get it on the ballot. You are free to! If your fellow townspeople disagree with you, then move somewhere else if it means that much to you! Don't let The Man keep you down, don't fear the Armed and Mean Governemnt!

Click to expand...

I don't fear the overreaching of government, I loathe it. Those are two very different things. We've come a VERY long way from the liberty that our founders envisioned...and arguing for less government and more freedom does not equal "hatred of this country".

I'm not sure what the specific local laws are where you live, but here I can, and do, walk around with a Class A License to Carry. The gov't isn't the only one who can be armed. :rockin: :rockin:

Click to expand...

Laws are like that here too. Luckily, THAT part was clearly spelled out in the Constitution.

In the end, man, I feel pretty free in the homebrewing arts. The government hasn't crept into my fermenter just yet.

Click to expand...

I feel free in homebrewing too. I never said we weren't. That's why I like it. My main point of contention was that your assertion that our regulatory environment is fundamentally different from Europe was misguided. Hell, if you own a bar here in VA, then a major portion of your sales are REQUIRED to come from food. Which means that there are no regular bars here...they're all restaurants with bars attached. Many in Europe would consider that absurd.

when it comes I think that I hear a lot of the things that you are saying, just not in a way that is applicable to how I'm thinking about this issue. I appreciate the responses, though, and I hope I don't come across as confrontational......good discussion!

Click to expand...

Yeah, same here. Homebrewing in your basement might be unregulated, but what if it wasn't? It's not so far-fetched to worry that the government could just bust in and start banning it. Just try to distill some booze, you'll see. Just try to grow some marijuana (a "drug" that is less dangerous than the barleywine in my basement and the Scotch in my cabinet). The government has banned and restricted many things that aren't that different from homebrewing---so it may be all good today, but it would not be smart to get complacent.

Even the thought of quoting out direct responses from the previous handful of posts is making me feel tired and sleeeepy on this rainy Tuesday. Thanks for the replies - even in disagreement there is much to be learned. I feel that the only way to response is to bring the discussion back out to a general level - otherwise I find it overwhelmingly impossible to get into all these specific points in type....it's too easy for me to miss my own point!!

....which is what I think I let happen. I think the bulk of the recent discussion came from me saying "I think that law governing the creation of foods outside of the safety/sanitary scope is overkill. Keep in mind, I am American and this is more how my society functions. Maybe if Germans think that beer is so importantly tied to their history and culture they should look for the gov't to "protect" it. However, why not just let companies make whatever type of beer they want? If said companies chose to adhere to "the law" then they can label it as such, and if their citizens were so hung up on tradition then non-gov't recipe beer wouldn't sell, would it?"

Let me explain what I meant by this, I think it was worded in such a general, off the cuff manner that my original intent didn't come through. America is still a new country. Yes, we have a myriad of laws and governing bodies to keep an eye on what the public is doing. I am well aware of the red tape that exists on everything related to the gov't here. That really isn't where I was going.....I was more saying that we aren't a country that is old enough to be steeped in one specific cultural/culinary system. I don't think an American could possibly think that ANY brewery were so important to this country's heritage that the government should tell them how to make their product. Not why, when, where, how much, in what environment (all laws/rules that Americans, and German, need to follow) - which is where we went - but the actual recipe of the beer. I would think that the idea behind the Rheinhetsgebot is that it is an important part of German culture and should be protected. this simply can't be the case here in America. That is the cultural difference I was trying, however unsuccessfully, to acknowledge.

Sure there is tons of gov't "interference" if you wanted to sell alcohol that you homebrewed in the US. But you certainly aren't limited by the government to only brew American Super Watery Pilsners. That type of government control, IMHO, would be much, much more intrusive than creating lots of hoops to jump through to sell beer.

Regarding sonvolt's thoughts regarding upholding tradition - from that perspective it is hard to begrudge CAMRA some respect. I'm a member of a "cultural/historical" group (NSSAR) whose goal is to preserve and teach Americans of our Revolutionary War Era roots. I simply could not imagine faulting an organization for wanting to preserve tradition, but the methods of doing so are equally as important as the "mission statement" of any organization. If I were to talk to a member of the military today and insist that the only Real War and Real Soldiers were the ones that fought back in the Revolution I'd be a condescending, ignorant pr*ck. I might be able to fall back upon the "upholding tradition" mantra, but the way by which I would be doing it would be severely flawed.

that is the problem I am getting from CAMRA. And if I keep typing I'm going to get a problem from my boss.

I'd like to make a comment here without having to cite Alexis de Tocqueville
or go pull Das Kapital out of the attic just to re-read the finer points of dialectical thinking.

Here's my take away about Reinheitsgebot and CAMRA:

Although restrictive, limiting and anti-competitive if followed (Reinheitsgebot caused the extinction of many styles of brewing in Germany),
we as homebrewers are not bound by them but we can benefit their promoting/educating of (now) less common styles of beer.

Without groups like CAMRA it's debatable whether beer engines, firkins, cask-condtioning, etc would be topics that we discuss as homebrewers.

As for whether or not these groups are snobbish, we are basing this on their website? The way we talk around here you'd think we have a tactical strike force devoted to slapping the Bud Lites our of peoples hands at Spring Break.

My 2 cents... have at it if you will but please don't use words like tyranny or armed insurgency.

Thanks.

Fiery Sword said:

Regarding sonvolt's thoughts regarding upholding tradition - from that perspective it is hard to begrudge CAMRA some respect. I'm a member of a "cultural/historical" group (NSSAR) whose goal is to preserve and teach Americans of our Revolutionary War Era roots. I simply could not imagine faulting an organization for wanting to preserve tradition, but the methods of doing so are equally as important as the "mission statement" of any organization. If I were to talk to a member of the military today and insist that the only Real War and Real Soldiers were the ones that fought back in the Revolution I'd be a condescending, ignorant pr*ck. I might be able to fall back upon the "upholding tradition" mantra, but the way by which I would be doing it would be severely flawed.

Click to expand...

I don't see how this analogy applies to CAMRA's intent. Surely military practice and beer productionare far enough removed culturally, theoretically, and practically that making comparisons between them isn't the fairest thing to do.

It does seem, however, that most people on here seem to support (at least in some regard) the "spirit" of what CAMRA intends. It seems to me that the main point of frustration with the group's rhetoric is its use of the word "real." So, now we have a debate about word choice, etc.

Using the word "real" is a rhetorical strategy used by CAMRA. Not only does it suggest that other ales are less than "real," it also relies upon the positive connotation of the word "real" in relation to the negative connotations we have with its opposite, "fake." Using the word, then, implies that some beers are "fake" examples of ale . . . thus are less "worthy" of consumption.

I think that all of this is true. Do I think that it is unfair? No! Am I fooled by the rhetoric into thinking that other ales are "fake"? No . . . because I am an intelligent, critical thinker. Thus, I can't be angry with a group like CAMRA whose intentions are less than despicable even if their methods are a bit snobbish in a rhetorical sense.

Let's be honest, . . . 99% of what CAMRA stands for, we agree with. The only thing that CAMRA's policy would suggest for us homebrewers is that we do not force carbonate our beers. Whooop-teee-dooo!

Let's again be honest . . . . it's not like CAMRA is a world power! This is a small-time, consumer advocacy group who can spout all kinds of rhetoric. But, . . . how much will they change the world? Probably not much. Why would anyone get so angry with a group of people who are zealous about their beer?

olllllo said:

Without groups like CAMRA it's debatable whether beer engines, firkins, cask-condtioning, etc would be topics that we discuss as homebrewers.

As for whether or not these groups are snobbish, we are basing this on their website? The way we talk around here you'd think we have a tactical strike force devoted to slapping the Bud Lites our of peoples hands at Spring Break.

Click to expand...

Q4T

According to wiki the original name was the Campaign for the Revitalisation of Ale.

I'm wondering of the change was a result of the popularity of the "Real Men Do / Don't " meme.

Anyone get offended by the RealBeer.com site?

sonvolt said:

Aren't there some HBT posters from the British Isles around here? I wonder what they have to say about it?

Click to expand...

I'm English.....here's my take on this "debate".
There are 2 types of beer....those you like to drink....and those you dont.
I also think that drinkers from countries like America and Australia tend to like their beers with a high level of carbonation(something you will not get with "Real Ale/cask conditioned or bottle conditioned ales) and co2 does leave a taste behind!.
I never prime my kegs with sugar,i use a little co2 to purge the o2 and then serve the beer nearly flat(injecting co2 just to maintain serving pressure)

It is all about personal choice.....i dont belong to Camra,but i think they have done a lot of good in making sure Real Ale is not forgotten.

Whats the best beer in the world?.....the next one


Colin

The word Zealot comes to mind. I think it is useful to have people who are passionate about issues and concerns, but there is a point where passion turns unreasonable. I appreciate the work CAMRA has done to save cask conditioned ale. I love the flavor and character of a beer served in this style. I also think it is important that there are folks out there who care about tradition and seek to preserve it, even if they can be a bit snobbish. It is a bit like historical committees that review building plans in historic districts. They can be a real pain and need checks and balances, but I am glad there are some places the still have character.

I am also glad that I have the freedom to brew whatever, however I wish. And I don't really care if other people approve of it or not. I serve lager through my beer engines and pale ale through my stout handle and if somebody doesn't like it, tough. They can get their own beer.

But I find that Cask Conditioned ale, served at cellar temperature is a taste treat.

One piece of information around CAMRA that I find interesting is their whole debate and dealing with a device called a cask breather. This is a valve that lets a blanket of CO2 at atmopheric pressure to be kept in a cask as it is being served. They have looked down their noses at these devices for years. They allow them in pubs that don't move through product quickly, but it is definately a red headed step child kind of tolerance. Well, CAMRA has done blind tastings of ale served both with and without these breathers and nobody has been able to tell the difference. But they still look down their nose at them and those who use them. I personally love mine and it seems foolish and wasteful to go without. But that is just my choice and my beer.

GUYS I finally tried my first one. It was a stout and I have to say it was pretty good. I'm not sure that I would say it was better than a normal style but it was good. Also tried an IPA and I did not like that nearly as much.

How can you not like an organization that creates cartoon characters to represent beer styles!! This was seriously the campaign for certain styles . . . to create cartoon characters!!!! Doesn't seem too snobbish to me!




My personal favorite is "Stout."

The way some of you have been posting on here you'd think CAMRA came round and spat in your homebrew!

CAMRA come across all 'high and mighty beer snobs' (which many of them are i'm sure) but the simple point is without them they'd be a lot less of the simple little British Pubs selling decent local beer and a lot more small independant breweries in the UK would have closed and been lost forever.

The Big Breweries (who own most British Pubs) don't care about anything other than making money - and why should they with shareholders to answer to? They give people what they want:-
Selling the latest fashionable commercial Lager (Which of course isn't British but is now brewed in a factory in the UK under licence from whoever owns the trade name) or other equally bland beers whilst serving indifferent precooked and re-microwaved food as 'Traditional Home Cooked Grub/fayre' in a 'false movie set' bookshelves and fly fishing decor Pub. That's all well and good - They make money. If it takes your fancy go ahead and spend your cash. CAMRA isn't stopping you.

However if you ever want to go to a decent UK boozer with a few quality house beers on tap all the time, maybe 2 or 3 Guest ales and not as much BS remember to thank CAMRA, chances are the Pub is already in their 'Good Pub' guide!

The Good Pub guide is worth its weight in ale if you are ever on that side of the pond and I give CAMRA full marks for their work in the name of great beer! Too bad somebody didn't do the same around here before BMC took over!

The Second Annual Oregon Cask Beer Festival is November 17 to 19th at Rose and Raindrop in Portland.

Caplan said:

The way some of you have been posting on here you'd think CAMRA came round and spat in your homebrew!

Click to expand...

Okokok I'll be honest - The day I posted the thread I got mugged in a dark alley. All I saw from my spot in the bloody pool on the ground as they slithered away was that logo.....that name.

"CAMRA"

Damn street tuffs.

I have a huge amount of respect for CAMRA and its work. They pretty much single-handedly revived good tasting beer in the United Kingdom in the 70s, which sparked the craft beer and homebrewing movements in the US. They fight to keep our Yankee culture out of their public houses, which are becoming increasingly rare.

CAMRA has very little to do with homebrewing. Their primary focus is on issues such as:
1. preserving good British beer against BMC
2. preserving traditional pubs
3. preserving the "honest pint" (many bars pour less than a pint of beer)
4. increasing awareness of beer and its traditions
5. protecting the small brewers against the big brewers

... And frankly, who can argue against that?

I've always felt that forced carbonation was cheating. It makes me think of the plonk sparkling wines that you find in the grocery store versus real wines from the Champagne region of France. Forced carbonation versus the methode champagnoise? It's a pretty obvious decision in my mind.

I maintain that even if there's absolutely no taste or visual difference, I'd rather drink a beer that conditioned naturally to one that wasn't. Think about it. If someone came out with tablets that you just had to drop in sterilized water and bottle, and the end product looked and tasted exactly like traditional beer, would you drink this artificially flavored beer or would you drink a beer that was actually fermented?

And... Extract brewing is still brewing. Some of the brewing was just done by someone else. (I'm an extract brewer.)

Jack said:

I've always felt that forced carbonation was cheating.

Click to expand...

Are hop pellets cheating? Lab-prepared yeast cultures? Commercial sanitizers?

Again, I don't view updates in technology as bad. I think they are great. I think that is more what my (i.e. American) culture IS. Out tradition is to improve and update old-world methods, and we are doing a pretty damn good job at it. I didn't cry when I threw out the foil-wrapped bunny ears on the TV, and I won't cry when my laundry folds itself in the dryer. I like progress, I like improving on the last generations traditions. And I'm not going to feel bad about it, or fold to traditionalists who have a problem with "their" methods being bastardized. Force carbonation, while no substiture to aging, is not cheating.

I'm definitely not going to get into CAMRA-bashing from the perspective of what they've done historicaly in the UK, the scope of the criticism was much more narrow than that. However, this common thread of "keeping the Yanks out of their bars" is pathetic! How about, "forcing their countrymen to only drink old fashoined forms of beer", "forcing Real Englishmen to only drink Real Old Englishman products", or "Make a product that people (general public) likes more than BMC!!!!"

I'm not defending BMC, but why do people get so bent out of shape about it? The majority of beer drinkers, like them or not, think the stuff is great. Why let this rain on your parade? If my local bar gets rid of their microbrew (REAL BEER!!!! ) taps, then I can go somewhere else! Why go all militant on them and blame BMC??? Blame the people drinking it!!!!

Fiery Sword said:

I'm not defending BMC, but why do people get so bent out of shape about it? The majority of beer drinkers, like them or not, think the stuff is great. Why let this rain on your parade? If my local bar gets rid of their microbrew (REAL BEER!!!! ) taps, then I can go somewhere else! Why go all militant on them and blame BMC??? Blame the people drinking it!!!!

Click to expand...

I have come to the conclusion that this country is full of idiots anyway, and nothing surprises me anymore. Tasteless idiots... I tell ya!