Never Use Pbw Again!!

SkinnyShamrock said:

We use PBW at the brewery because it is a cleaner/sanitizer in one

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PBW is a sanitizer?

The Pol said:

PBW is a sanitizer?

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No, it is not. Listen to the 5 Star Chemical podcast with Charlie and he clearly states that it is a cleaner and not a sanitizer.

Lodovico said:

No, it is not. Listen to the 5 Star Chemical podcast with Charlie and he clearly states that it is a cleaner and not a sanitizer.

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Right, I know this... but the post before mine sayes that it is... just making sure I didnt miss some huge change in thier formulation

Otherwise they wouldnt sell StarSan in thier "cleaning package" WITH the PBW that they sell to HBers.

PBW is percarbonate, wetting agents and chelating agents. This is why it doesn't leave horrible mineral deposits like a percarbonate + inert filler item like oxyclean.

If you know how to construct a suitable cleaning agent from percarbonate, silicates and phospates of course you can do it cheaper than PBW costs because you don't need to pay Five Star for their expertise.

If you want a complete cleaning agent that isn't designed in particular for brewing applications you can buy dishwashing detergent.

Why anyone would use oxyclean is beyond me. In the time you guys spend rinsing everything with vinegar I can make enough money to buy a lifetime supply of PBW and have delivered in a boilermaker.

remilard said:

PBW is percarbonate, wetting agents and chelating agents. This is why it doesn't leave horrible mineral deposits like a percarbonate + inert filler item like oxyclean.

If you know how to construct a suitable cleaning agent from percarbonate, silicates and phospates of course you can do it cheaper than PBW costs because you don't need to pay Five Star for their expertise.

If you want a complete cleaning agent that isn't designed in particular for brewing applications you can buy dishwashing detergent.

Why anyone would use oxyclean is beyond me. In the time you guys spend rinsing everything with vinegar I can make enough money to buy a lifetime supply of PBW and have delivered in a boilermaker.

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+1 to this .

remilard said:

PBW is percarbonate, wetting agents and chelating agents. This is why it doesn't leave horrible mineral deposits like a percarbonate + inert filler item like oxyclean.

If you know how to construct a suitable cleaning agent from percarbonate, silicates and phospates of course you can do it cheaper than PBW costs because you don't need to pay Five Star for their expertise.

If you want a complete cleaning agent that isn't designed in particular for brewing applications you can buy dishwashing detergent.

Why anyone would use oxyclean is beyond me. In the time you guys spend rinsing everything with vinegar I can make enough money to buy a lifetime supply of PBW and have delivered in a boilermaker.

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I only rinse with StarSan, wouldnt I have to do that anyway? That takes me 1 minute, I want your job.

The Pol said:

I only rinse with StarSan, wouldnt I have to do that anyway? That takes me 1 minute, I want your job.

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If you are sequestering with star san you should sanitize in a separate step you cannot sanitize an item that isn't clean and an item that has scale or beer stone is not clean.

I bill quite a bit more in a minute than a PBW to clean a carboy costs, jobs like that are easy to get. Get a law degree or a math degree.

Why does it have scale on it? Ive never noticed any film, is this something I can see with the naked eye?

Im not smart enough for a degree.

Let's try the socratic method.

Why are phosphates or EDTA added to dish washing and laundry detergent? Wouldn't it be cheaper to use inactive filler like Oxyclean does? Why do something that costs money? Because it is effective? What effect does it have?

remilard said:

Let's try the socratic method.

Why are phosphates or EDTA added to dish washing and laundry detergent? Wouldn't it be cheaper to use inactive filler like Oxyclean does? Why do something that costs money? Because it is effective? What effect does it have?

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I dunno... what.

If washed in percarbonate solution and then rinsed shortly after, I've not had issues with scale formation.

So, PBW is better than the other cleaners in really hard water, correct?

I have well water that is really hard. I am probably too cheap to buy PBW on a regular basis. So, that leaves me the alternative of continuing to use SUN and dealing with any deposits that I have. My question is: Can anybody give me a pretty accurate idea of what’s in PBW? I’ll find the ingredients and mix them. I just need a starting point. My reason is that I would like something to CIP my brewing system.

I am thrilled with the PBW. Tap water pH is 9.2 - 9.3 on average. I buy PBW wholesale in 50 pound buckets. With shipping my per gallon cost is around 10 to 15 cents.

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Gila:
 Where do you get it?
 Is it wholesale only?
 What is the cost for a 50# bag?

Lodovico said:

No, it is not. Listen to the 5 Star Chemical podcast with Charlie and he clearly states that it is a cleaner and not a sanitizer.

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Ok, I guess not technically, but it's recommended you rinse it away with 170* or higher water...which will certainly kill anything living that happened to survive soaking for 30 minutes in an incredibly basic environment. We also go a step further after the hot rinse and rinse with Oxine (chlorine dioxide) which is acidic, so neutralizes any PBW that didn't get washed away, and is a sanitizer, which will kill anything that lived through the PBW AND hot water.

The Pol said:

Why does it have scale on it? Ive never noticed any film, is this something I can see with the naked eye?

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I have really hard water, and I've never had OxiClean leave any kind of residue, even on bottles soaked over night. One time I did leave a container partially filled sit too long and a ring formed where I assume the solution had evaporated/dried somewhat. OxiClean does warn to not let the solution dry on the item you're cleaning. Heck, my water is hard enough that the ring probably would have formed without the OxiClean. The ring was gone with a few rinses of water.

I have only moderately hard water and I get a film on everything I use oxiclean on. I just picked up a 4# container of PBW today Hopefully that will work better.

jspence1 said:

I have only moderately hard water and I get a film on everything I use oxiclean on. I just picked up a 4# container of PBW today Hopefully that will work better.

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It will, I have ultra soft water... so Oxi works excellent

You lucky SOB's with your soft water. I was foolish when I first used oxiclean. I filled my laundry tub with bottles and soaked them over night, Then I had to try and get that film off I tried everything starsan vinegar, and finally the acid I used for removing beerstone worked. Remember to test it on a couple of bottles not 60.

I've always used oxy (well, the SUN version) and never thought twice about it. I picked up a little packet of PBW on a whim at the HBS yesterday and used it to clean up after brewing. I must say, PBW did a much better job of cleaning my kettle and seemed to rinse better. Yeah, it definitely costs more but a pound for $6 will easily last a year. I'm going to switch.

Great I have hard water and all my gear is soaking in Oxi right now and I am on the road for a few days. Will pick up some PBW.

Psst...add a couple drops of dishsoap to your oxyclean solution. It'll work just as good or better than PBW.

GNBrews said:

Psst...add a couple drops of dishsoap to your oxyclean solution. It'll work just as good or better than PBW.

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Really? What's that do, help it rinse better?

I will never use OxyClean again. I usually storage the leftover PBW in unused kegs and then reuse it, assuming it is fairly clean. When I go to use the keg after say a month the inside is unbelievably clean. Tried this with OxyClean and it crystallized on the inside of my keg the only thing that got it off was my buddies power washer. Maybe with soft water this might not have happened. I have once forgot to sanitize a carboy but had just washed it out with PBW and I never had a bit of infection. A little PBW goes a long way, put it in a spray bottle and reuse it, 5 Star says that it is ok to do that.

Cliff897 said:

And it's not even 100% it's 30%
Sodium Metasilicate is cheap stuff $1.50 a pound in a 50 pound bag.

I'm sure you can get it in smaller volumes tho.
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Sodium_Metasilicate.html

I put a natural bristle paint brush in sodium metasilicate solution that was clogged with years and years of old oil paint. The solution strength was maybe a quarter cup of the powder to a quart of water.

It stripped away all the old paint and started to denature the brush. The bristles became permanently limp and without any body. The brush was ruined

The lesson for me was this stuff is strong.

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http://www.chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM METASILICATE.htm

bnhocking said:

I will never use OxyClean again. I usually storage the leftover PBW in unused kegs and then reuse it, assuming it is fairly clean. When I go to use the keg after say a month the inside is unbelievably clean. Tried this with OxyClean and it crystallized on the inside of my keg the only thing that got it off was my buddies power washer. Maybe with soft water this might not have happened. I have once forgot to sanitize a carboy but had just washed it out with PBW and I never had a bit of infection. A little PBW goes a long way, put it in a spray bottle and reuse it, 5 Star says that it is ok to do that.

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PBW contains some phosphates which keep everything in solution, even with hard water. Oxiclean isn't meant to be stored, which is why you ended up with that calcium scale. It can be removed easily with a mild vinegar solution if you ever have that problem again.

Another vote for oxy.

I have no idea what exactly the PBW is made from, but someone called me a little while back and they told me they found something posted about it that it can "lift Teflon" ????
Just wondering if anyone knows the composition of this stuff or has an MSDS on it....wondering if it is possibly affecting the Teflon thrust washers in our pumps and possibly giving some of you grief!

You'll have to pry my PBW from my cold dead hands. It makes carboy and flask cleaning a dream.

Like Starsan, this stuff can be used over and over again. It may get dirty and nasty, but its still an effective cleaner after several uses. I usually just recapture it in a milk jug.

WalterAtMarchPump said:

I have no idea what exactly the PBW is made from, but someone called me a little while back and they told me they found something posted about it that it can "lift Teflon" ????
Just wondering if anyone knows the composition of this stuff or has an MSDS on it....wondering if it is possibly affecting the Teflon thrust washers in our pumps and possibly giving some of you grief!

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Walter, check out this post: here

It looks like PBW is capable of destroying the bonding agent that makes Teflon stick to a cooking pan but doesn't actually hurt the Teflon itself

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification.

Old thread, but I have a couple questions.

Is the stuff you guys are using called Sun Oxygen All Purpose Stain Remover? $5.47 for 6 lbs at Walmart? I have a Keggle that I need to clean really well. What kind of ratio should I use to do a really good soak? Hot water? The Keggle has been sitting outside, so I want to TURBO CLEAN the thing. Or... since it is a one time clean, would it be worth just spending the money on the PBW? I am really on the fence about this. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.

MedicMang said:

Old thread, but I have a couple questions.

Is the stuff you guys are using called Sun Oxygen All Purpose Stain Remover? $5.47 for 6 lbs at Walmart? I have a Keggle that I need to clean really well. What kind of ratio should I use to do a really good soak? Hot water? The Keggle has been sitting outside, so I want to TURBO CLEAN the thing. Or... since it is a one time clean, would it be worth just spending the money on the PBW? I am really on the fence about this. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.

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Don't make it so complicated. Get Oxy that's dye and fragrance free, then add a good scoop to it if you want to clean the thing well. Rinse plenty afterwards. If it doesn't clean up soak it with some more Oxy and hotter water, or go medieval on it with a brush+drill. It's a keg, beat it like a stepchild til it's clean.

iijakii said:

Don't make it so complicated. Get Oxy that's dye and fragrance free, then add a good scoop to it if you want to clean the thing well. Rinse plenty afterwards. If it doesn't clean up soak it with some more Oxy and hotter water, or go medieval on it with a brush+drill. It's a keg, beat it like a stepchild til it's clean.

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I like it. I like it a lot. Shall.

iijakii said:

Don't make it so complicated. Get Oxy that's dye and fragrance free, then add a good scoop to it if you want to clean the thing well. Rinse plenty afterwards. If it doesn't clean up soak it with some more Oxy and hotter water, or go medieval on it with a brush+drill. It's a keg, beat it like a stepchild til it's clean.

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I have been using the regular OxiClean Versatile for 15 years. No problems.

iijakii said:

It's a keg, beat it like a stepchild til it's clean.

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So funny and so true!!!

i buy the big couple pound container of PBW once a year....usuallly like $21. It doesnt foam like oxyclean...and when i burn a cheese sauce on my stainless sauce pan it takes care of it in a heart beat.

No question. PBW

PBW works great for me, but I decided to try a mixture of 70% Sun Oxygen cleaner and 30% Red Devil TSP-90 (Sodium Metasilicate). It cleans well, but it leaves the dreaded white film on everything that only comes off with acid. Has anyone figured out what to add to the homebrew PBW cleaners that prevents the white film?

I just cleaned out 3 kegs I made into a keggle setup. They were filthy and had been sitting years with beer in them.

Here's what I did and it worked wonderfully.

1) Initial rinse and soak (before holes cut in kegs). Used hose temp water and 3 scoops of OxiFree powder. Fill keg to the brim and let sit a day. Dump crud water

2) Cut 12" hole with plasma cutter, deburr. Using a green scotch bright pad and a half gallon of hot water mixed with 3oz of PBW scrub all interior surfaces. It took me 45 min per keg but they were looking good after. Dump and rinse with clean water.

3) Soak 3 days. Add 3oz of PBW and 2 big scoops of OxiFree along with 15 gallons of the hottest water your tap will make. Let sit. Dump, rinse.

4) Sanatize quick with starsan. Slosh 1 gsllon around inside after installing valve hardware. Not really necessary, but I'm a germaphobe.

kevink said:

PBW works great for me, but I decided to try a mixture of 70% Sun Oxygen cleaner and 30% Red Devil TSP-90 (Sodium Metasilicate). It cleans well, but it leaves the dreaded white film on everything that only comes off with acid. Has anyone figured out what to add to the homebrew PBW cleaners that prevents the white film?

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As GNBrews mentions above in post #104, PBW has phosphates. If you can get some real TSP I'd try adding 5-10% to the mix and report back on how it does. It should make a difference.

Hot water and once scoop of Sun per five gallons. Dont let it sit in the keg overnight, drain and rinse within 2-3 hours.

atoughram said:

Hot water and once scoop of Sun per five gallons. Dont let it sit in the keg overnight, drain and rinse within 2-3 hours.

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Good advice.

Ya know, regular old Oxiclean works so well for me I have a hard time understanding why you'd screw around adding TSP (or anything) to it. It couldn't possibly do a better job for me no matter what I added to it.