LME making beers taste the same?

I have brewed 5 different batches of beer from box kits, all from the same company, which happened to be my local brew store. I also bought the LME (it came seperatly from the box kit) from them which I believe they make on site?

The different beers were:
Double Bock
DunkelWeiss
Steam Beer
IPA
one other I forget what it was...

Anyways they clearly taste like the different beers but they all have the same funny during/after taste? Not like soap but something soapy/staleish...

I sanatize with StarSan and my kit is only a year or year and a half old but I am thinking of getting a new tube for transfering/racking. Could either of these be causing this? I deffinetly clean and sanatize very well and dont think its this, but clearly I dont know or I wouldnt be asking?

Is it the LME? Maybe they dont make it there and just repackage it from larger containers, however I think they make it there, and I trust they are not selling stale product. They are a very reputable/large company that I dont want to name because Im not trying to pull them through the mud. The reason I think they make it on site is because they are attached to their brewery, its a pretty large operation.

Also I have been putting an extra 3-4 #'s of LME in the wort to make more sugar for my yeast to eat and make a stronger beer. Could this be it? Also is this even a good idea or not really?

I bottle the beer in reused bottles, again I clean and sanatize them.

I always use water strait out of the tap (city water) put it in my 5 gal boil bucket and when it gets to 170 steep the grains, then when it boils add the LME. Should I boil and cool before I actually start making the beer? This seems like it would take forever, if I were going to do this I would just buy a 5 gal jug of water from the grocery store from a natural spring or something.

To cool the beer I have a copper coil that I push cold hose water through, this I never really clean rather than just rinse off. I put it in the wort for the last 5-10 min of boiling and figure that should kill anything on it, then afterwards just rinse it clean and it is in boiling wort for 5-10 min before it is used to cool again on the next batch?

Any suggestions as to where this off flavoring is coming from, its not bad and the beer is still drinkable, but it has a clearly this beer is all kinda the same taste to it...?

Throwing in an extra 3-4 lbs of extract will definitely alter the taste of the beer and if you're using the same extract to do that each time, then it's going to alter them all the same way. It's going to reduce the impact of the hops, lower the bitterness and increase whatever flavor that extract is.

Try brewing up a batch as the recipe calls for and see how it comes out.

^ that and I wouldn't go above 160°F for steeping grains, or you may extract more tannins. Actually I prefer steeping specialty grains at 154-156°F, for 45 minutes, followed by a "sparge" or rinse at the same temperature.

Also if you're using the same LME tapped from bulk containers, it all tends to have that specific "LME" flavor, that lies underneath your beer. I can taste it too.

Another important thing.
How and when do you add the LME? All at the beginning of the boil or do you split 50/50 between beginning/end, the last being the preferred method?
You need to stir the LME into the wort very well while you're adding it, and before any of it hits the bottom of your pot and scorches there. Turning your heat off while adding will help to prevent scorching, but the syrup needs to be mixed into the wort thoroughly before you resume the boil.

I mix hot wort and the LME syrup in a separate pot and when all is dissolved, I add that thinner mix back into the boil. That totally prevents scorching.

Maybe you're also tasting scorched LME.

PorterGlenn said:

I always use water strait out of the tap (city water) put it in my 5 gal boil bucket and when it gets to 170 steep the grains, then when it boils add the LME. Should I boil and cool before I actually start making the beer? This seems like it would take forever, if I were going to do this I would just buy a 5 gal jug of water from the grocery store from a natural spring or something.

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Depending on your water, that could also be an issue. If there's chlorine in it, it can cause off flavors.

Also... I'm assuming you aren't boiling the grains. You don't say anything between steeping the grains and bring it to a boil, but I'll assume there's an unmentioned step there.

I am taking the grains out after 45 min or so, the temp I steep at is whatever the directions say I kinda guessed at 170 but will be aware of this next time I brew a batch.

When I add the LME I do turn off the burner and stir for awhile, however it is possible I am not stirring quite enough before turning the burner back on. There seem to be little flakes of LME still in the wort (kinda looks like the Goldschlagger flakes)

I do believe that they all used light LME so I am thinking adding the extra couple of pounds is a bad idea. I have a batch of Pliney the Elder in my fermenter now and I followed the directions with out adding anything extra. My first non kit beer I am hoping it will turn out fine and then I know it isnt my equipment or process...

There is chlorine in the water, however it seems that most people mention they dont seem to taste that in their homebrews? And I dont have a super palate or anything? I wanted to do the batch I am currently fermenting in jug water to side step all that but forgot to get it and already had too many brews to go out to the store and get some...

Ill keep you guys posted

Yeah, don't boil those grains...
I think 170 is too high for steeping. The steeping water has likely a pH of 6.5-7.5 depending on your water source, and could have enough alkalinity that strips tannins from the husks. I know it is only a few pounds of crystal/specialty but still could be an issue. All things add up.

I'm starting to use a tiny bit of potassium metabisulphite ("Campden tablet") to get rid of chlorine and choramines in my (carbon filtered) water. In the summer those levels are very high here.
You may want to do that just in case. I think they even sell them in the Walmart (outdoors/camping dept.), but not sure if it is the same substance. The sodium variety would be fine too. Such a small pinch. 1/4 Campden tablet will treat 5 gallons.

You should split your LME into 2 additions, 1/3 at the beginning of the boil and the rest 5-10 minutes before flame out. Less caramelization and somewhat better hop utilization. Have you noticed that your extract beers are darker than they should be?

The extra 3-4# malt load makes a much stronger beer and changes the beer balance significantly. How much LME goes into a batch totally (6.6 kit + 3 extra)? That is almost 50% more fermentables. What are your typical FGs?

Those little flakes you see are probably just hot break.

Depending on the quantity of grain, 170 isn't a bad strike temp. The grain will bring it down to mash temperature. If you start with 155F water, the grain will take it down into the 140's.

IslandLizard said:

You should split your LME into 2 additions, 1/3 at the beginning of the boil and the rest 5-10 minutes before flame out. Less caramelization and somewhat better hop utilization. Have you noticed that your extract beers are darker than they should be?

The extra 3-4# malt load makes a much stronger beer and changes the beer balance significantly. How much LME goes into a batch totally (6.6 kit + 3 extra)? That is almost 50% more fermentables. What are your typical FGs?

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My beers may be a little to dark but not enough the bother me personally. As far as doing 2 additions of LME put 1/3 in at begining of boil, throw in hops at appropriate times, then in last 5 - 10 min of boil throw the rest in?

If they are too dark does this do anything to the taste or just not look right to the eye for the style of beer that it is?

I am assuming the LME must not be like hops then where it needs to be in a certian amount of time, just as long as its in there and boils for a bit to sanatize it?

The kits call for 7-8# LME I have been adding an additional 3# bucket, making my 5 gal batches total 10-11# LME. I believe it was mentioned but I did not step up hop additions or anything else to compensate for this. Seems like a silly idea now that were talking about, but I thought it was genius when I did it.

OG's never took them, I read somewhere that if you put all the ingrediants in its hard to miss your OG. (I guess this is clearly thrown out the window if you are adding more ingrediants, like 3# LME) FG's never took those either, I was making a box beer not mad scientisting an entirely new style of beer!

Like I mentioned earlier I have a non kit batch that I did last weekend, and after speaking with the guys at my local brew store, I took an OG and will take FG readings. They mentioned not taking these readings makes it really hard to identify problems, and/or to recreate good batchs, kinda the same thing you guys are saying. Ill deffinetly be taking them in the future.

ChshreCat,

I do see my temps go down whenever I add anything in Hops/Grains/LME and clearly this is to be expected. Again I might be steeping at 155ish I honestly dont remember, however 170 does seems to be a number I remember.

Does the phrase "steep small and boil big" mean anything to you guys? I am boiling big (5 gal pot) however I gennerally steep in the same pot, this last time I steeped inside in a 1 gal pot because the recipe called for it but am wondering why this makes a difference? I understand the boil big part, but the steep small I dont quite get?

There is lots of talk here on extracts and when and how to add them. One school of thought is that the shorter you boil the extracts the cleaner (fresher) the taste. A 5-10 minute boil is enough to effectively sanitize it and kill any germs, if there were any.

Although some people may add cold water from the tap, pour in DME or LME straight from the container or bag, I prefer to sanitize everything that goes into the wort.

Adding only 1/3 of the extract at the beginning of the boil will keep your gravity down which raises your hops utilization. Now apparently some malt is needed during the major part of the boil to create a good beer. Hence the 1/3 early addition and 2/3 late is a good compromise.

Don't know about seeing "steep small and boil big" before, but it makes sense.
The larger the boil volume, the better the hop extraction and alpha acid isomerization. The lower gravity of large boil volumes also helps in many ways, and is easier to control with extracts than with AG.

Here is my guess on "steep small." It may be better because your steeping water's pH will drop a bit, preventing tannin extraction. You're extracting flavor and sugars, and while most are unfermentable, and there will be little or no starch conversion (lack of enzymes) the smaller volume mimics a (mini)mash better.

I've steeped 2 lbs of grains in a 2 gallon pot using about 4 qts of water. After straining (through a grain bag placed in a colander if you didn't use a bag in the first place), I give them a 5-10 minute soak (dip and dunk "sparge") with another gallon. I also give the bag a gentle squeeze at the end.

The effects of squeezing bags is another topic that gets visited here often. Apparently squeezing does not extract tannins. Temperature, high alkalinity, and high pH (above 6) do.

Were all the beers brewed with the same yeast? Don't underestimate the importance of yeast derived flavors in making the beer seem distinct. Base malt is base malt. All beers have it - yet you can clearly taste the difference in an pilsner v. saison - the principal difference being the yeast.

ChshreCat said:

Depending on the quantity of grain, 170 isn't a bad strike temp. The grain will bring it down to mash temperature. If you start with 155F water, the grain will take it down into the 140's.

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If he's steeping in 5 gallons of 170°F water, as he says in the OP, 2 pounds of grain is not going to drop that down a lot.

Is there a real known advantage to steep small? I was guessing as to why in my previous response. I've always done it small (ca. 1 gal water).

Kit instruction differ widely, and most kits assume people use smaller pots and do partial boils. Maybe that's why they tell you to steep grains in that pot, keeping it simple.

Even the 1/3 - 2/3 split malt additions are typically omitted in kits I've used or seen in the past. In a small 3 gal pot 6# of malt extract makes a way too heavy wort, and chances are it will scorch during the boil.

FlyDoctor said:

Were all the beers brewed with the same yeast? Don't underestimate the importance of yeast derived flavors in making the beer seem distinct. Base malt is base malt. All beers have it - yet you can clearly taste the difference in an pilsner v. saison - the principal difference being the yeast.

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I do not recal but I cannot be sure, I do like this idea though. The batch in my primary now does have a different yeast in it as well. Hopefully the taste is gone and then I can assume that it was either the yeast (which was dry in all the batches I am talking about) or the adding of extra LME. Either way I like the liquid yeast better, and will not add extra LME in future, so if this batch is good, then as far as im concerened its a non issue.

IslandLizard,

I am going to look into the topic of adding extracts when and how. When I first posted this I was thinking maybe the LME I was buying was no good or that perhapse DME or all grain was just the way to go to get around this. After reading your responses I think it is more that my adding extra malt is the culprit.

PorterGlenn said:

IslandLizard,

I am going to look into the topic of adding extracts when and how. When I first posted this I was thinking maybe the LME I was buying was no good or that perhapse DME or all grain was just the way to go to get around this. After reading your responses I think it is more that my adding extra malt is the culprit.

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Most definitely the main culprit player, since the balance of maltiness, sweetness, bitterness, and hoppiness of the recipe has been changed.

For example, people may simply add a pound of sugar the recipe didn't call for to "dry it out," but at that point they are not brewing that same recipe anymore.

Yeast will have effects too, but are much more subtle. IMO fermentation temperature has more influence on taste than the difference among (similar) strains.

Also, when using a Hefe yeast in an IPA malt recipe, it will still ferment to a good beer, but is not true to either style. Yet, it will be close to an IPA and nothing like a Hefeweisen.

Similar is true for the reverse.

Since you like and appreciate distinguished flavors, you should consider doing partial mashes. It is a small step up from steeping, but a big step up in taste and customizability.

Eventually, like most of us, you'll move to AG, either using the cooler-mashtun or the BIAB approach.

Boy,there's a lot of novellas in this thread. Need to cut down the wordiness a bit.
Anyway,the lil black flakes are burnt extract,not hot break at all. Hot break is the mad foaming you get right before it boils. And you do not need to boil extract to pasteurize it. Boiling happens at 212F, pasteurization happens at 162F. So steeping the late extract additions at flame out after quickly stirring them in works just fine. I've done it since the first or second brew. Adding all the extracts at the beginning causes darkening from mailard reactions with the extract twang,or cooked extract flavor. Late additions negate both the dark color & funky cooked flavor.

unionrdr said:

the lil black flakes are burnt extract,not hot break at all

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The flakes are not black, they are the same color as the LME, yellow/orange/golden. I dont think their burning? It sounds like you recommend adding the majority of the malt at the end but not necessarily let it boil for 10 min, do you reccommend the 1/3 at beginning and 2/3 at end like others have suggested?

What are your thoughts on the additional 3# of LME?

PorterGlenn said:

The flakes are not black, they are the same color as the LME, yellow/orange/golden. I dont think their burning? It sounds like you recommend adding the majority of the malt at the end but not necessarily let it boil for 10 min, do you reccommend the 1/3 at beginning and 2/3 at end like others have suggested?

What are your thoughts on the additional 3# of LME?

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Well,as for the color of the flakes,it's possible,as I've found that color of extract marks in the shape of the electric stoves' heating coils on the bottom of my kettle a couple of times. So they're starting to burn,you just stirred or whatever before they did. Yes,I use maybe 1/4-1/3 of the extract,usually plain DME at the begining of the AE boil. So,yes,the majority at the end. I add the remaining extract at flame out,since the wort is still boiling hot. Pasteurization happens at 162F,& the wort still being above that temp,works just fine. No need to boil the heck out of it at all.
Take a look at some of my recipes for some ideas as to what I'm talking about here. The extra 3# of extract would at least need some flavor hops to balance out the malts. Even a small amount of bittering could be added to suppliment the bittering already in the pre-hopped extract. That'd also help balance out the extra extracts.

The stuff floating in your wort that makes it look like egg drop soup is the hot break. Coagulated (bound together) proteins. They are soft, light weight, irregularly cloud-like shaped, and light tan in color.

They show up after the foaming (from proteins) subsides. Extract doesn't have as much hot break as AG, and the break particles are smaller in size usually.

Agree that boiling the extract at the end may be overkill. But boiling it does reduce whatever proteins are in there, which is not all that much.

You can also get light colored flakes in your boil from your grain. Little flecks of grain hulls and whatnot can slip through the mesh.

I do large partial mash brews (most of the wort coming from a mash with just a few lbs of extract to make up for not being able to do a full boil) and I usually add my extract as late as possible, usually just getting it back to a boil before flameout. There's even a setting in Beersmith for Late Extract Addition that lets you calculate it into your recipe so you can predict hop utilization better.

I thought of another constant in all these brews.

StarSan, 1oz to 5gal of water, then although all intinct tells me to rinse the foam I "Dont Fear The Foam" and in secondary fermenter (plastic carboy) and bottles there is a healthy amount of foam that I just put my bear on top of...

I believe that the directions call for 1oz to 5gal of water, but I also believe that I have ready many people who say they only use1/2oz per 5gal of water. However I dont believe they gennerally say why they do this, does anyone know?

Wether or not the foam is causing 'off flavors' do most people who use less of it believe that is causing off flavors, or do they believe it still does its job and are just saving product, or is there some other reason?

They're mixing it too thin with only 1/2oz per five gallons. Reducing it's strength by 50% is not a good thing to do,so don't. I like to dump as much foam back in the storage jug as I can,even though starsan breaks down into yeast food. That foam lasts a long time,but will not cause off flavors.