3724 Saison yeast problems (surprise, surprise)

So...even with all the warnings, I decided to go with this yeast for my recent Saison. Big mistake. It's been stalled out at 1.027 for the past 9+ days. I've taken 3 consecutive readings over this time period, and it hasn't budged at all.

I have no idea what other people are doing to get this yeast to work for them. Perhaps this yeast just likes specific sugars from different malts and adjuncts that weren't present in my brew...I don't know. Either way, I seem to have not lucked out in getting this one to play nice.

I pitched at 80F and have kept it there for the first week. It fizzled out 4 days after pitching. It was pretty much done 12 hours after pitching, but dropped a few more points in the next 3 days. But for the past 9+ days it hasn't gone anywhere and is stuck at 1.027. I've slowly ramped up the temp to 90F over this time as well.

At this point, I'm probably not going to use this yeast again since it just wastes my time.

Would it be safe to assume that after 9+ days of absolutely no activity that it's not going to start back up again?

If so, I've never had this issue before and have no experience pitching a secondary strain so I have a few questions.

1. Should I transfer to secondary before pitching a secondary yeast?
2. What yeast would be preferable? US-05 or some kinda Brett? When pitching another yeast, I assume I should lower the temp of the carboy to that of the secondary yeast's preferable temp range before pitching, correct?
3. Anything special about pitching a secondary or just toss it in and leave it? Should I swirl it up or anything?

At this point, I think I've been fairly patient and it hasn't gone anywhere for 9+ days.

Thanks for the help guys!

cheers,
Julian

I've always had great results with this yeast. It takes time, but I significantly prefer the profile to 3711. I've been saying it around here for a while even though few people seem to go this route, but I think the key is pitching in the mid-60s and gradually ramping up the temperature into the 80s from there. Anyway, if you're looking for something easier to manage, 3711 will be it.

For now: Do a fast ferment test to figure out if your problem is actually the yeast, and then decide from there.

Pitch S05 if you want. Flavor profile is mostly set. Don't worry about the temp, since the yeast will not reproduce (alcohol + no oxygen) you should not get any yeast flavors and little fusels from the S05.

3711 produces an acceptable beer, but is not my preferred Belgian yeast.

Stir the yeast and raise the temp a little if you can. Take a reading in a week. I'd give it at least 3 weeks before pitching something else. This is a sloow yeast.

tesilential said:

Stir the yeast and raise the temp a little if you can. Take a reading in a week. I'd give it at least 3 weeks before pitching something else. This is a sloow yeast.

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It's already been going for 3 weeks...of which when I did start taking readings it hasn't moved in the past 9+ days. So I think we can agree it's pretty much stalled out completely. I'm in the process of cooling and going to pitch the US05 soon.

You could always finish it with 3711. I've never used 3724 before, but when I do pop that evil cherry, I'm going to have some 3711 standing by in case things stall at 1.030. I just read a post where someone got a saison down below 1.010 in less that 2 weeks with 3724 by placing the carboy in an igloo ice chest with a heating pad to keep things around 90*F (?) for the duration of fermentation. I'll probably go a similar route my first time. For now, I've got my first (ever) batch of saison ready to keg -- but it's namby pamby 3711.

So it's been almost a month now since I brewed. 3 weeks since I pitched 3724. It's completely stalled out at 1.027. Last weekend I pitched half a packet of US-05 - this did absolutely nothing. 2 days ago I built up a starter of 1056 and pitched it yesterday morning. Still nothing. I'm at a loss of how to get this thing to finish

julian81 said:

So it's been almost a month now since I brewed. 3 weeks since I pitched 3724. It's completely stalled out at 1.027. Last weekend I pitched half a packet of US-05 - this did absolutely nothing. 2 days ago I built up a starter of 1056 and pitched it yesterday morning. Still nothing. I'm at a loss of how to get this thing to finish

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Did you do a fast ferment test? If not, how do you know the problem is the yeast?

I'm not quite sure I understand what a fast ferment test is. Could you please explain? Also, the problem is most definitely yeast. I've never had this problem before and went with 3724 which is notorious for stalling. What else could it be?

julian81 said:

I'm not quite sure I understand what a fast ferment test is. Could you please explain? Also, the problem is most definitely yeast. I've never had this problem before and went with 3724 which is notorious for stalling. What else could it be?

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Check the link I posted in my previous response.

It could be a lot of things: getting a properly fermentable wort for a saison is non-trivial and usually involves a very low mash. That in turn leads to increased risk of incomplete conversion, etc. In any case, there are a dozen possibilities for what's going on, and the fact that US-05 didn't help makes me suspect that it's not a yeast problem. But all this speculation is just that. Do the diagnostic work and you'll be able to know something with more certainty.

If the beer passes the fermentation test (if it is still further fermentable) I'd try pitching an active starter of WY3711.

You really just have to understand the yeast and be prepared for up to 6 weeks of ferment time. My first run it stalled at 1.030 the same as everyone else. Mash temp was 149F on that one. 6 weeks later, it was down to 1.004. It's a derivative of a wine yeast from what I understand. Give it some time.

It also seems to be relative to the OG of the beer. I did a smaller OG (1.042ish) and it never stalled out at all. The one finished at 1.002.

-chuck

I think like Malfet said you need to pitch at a lower temp like less than 80 and then let it sit there for 2-3 days or so and than warm it up. I don't even think it is OG related. I did a saison 4 weeks ago that has fermented down to 1.006 without problems in 2-3 weeks. I recently brewed a really big saison on top of that yeast cake and instead of adding a lb of sugar as fermentation was winding down I added 5 lbs of honey! It has been 9 days and went from a predicted OG of 1.096 down to 1.021 and is still actively fermenting. That is 76% percent attenuation which is only 2 percentage points away from the yeasts anticipated attenuation. Although I expect it to drop considerably more since I used so many simple sugars. I'm pretty sure it's been fermenting well over 95 for the last 6 days to and I get no real off flavors other than it still tastes a little "young" and tart. quite frankly it tastes great for 9 days into a 9%+ alcohol beer.

I just think that the most important thing about this yeast is to pitch at a lower temp and let it sit maybe gradually increase in temp for the next couple days then warm the thing up considerably before it gets the chance to become inactive. and of course pitch the proper amount of yeast. I've only used this yeast twice but I am guessing that adding simple sugars as fermentation winds down will help considerably as well. I added them as I heated up fermentation. oh and I mashed at 147 for 90 minutes for both brews.

Don't get me wrong I love 3711 as well but I think both yeasts offer something completely different. You just gotta treat 3724 right.

Pitch a starter of Wyeast lambic blend and sour that thing up! I've wanted to use 3724 banking on it stalling at near 1.030 so I could pitch some bugs for a nice sour barnyard finish!

Quick update on this. I pitched a nice starter of 1056 (from some washed yeast) last week and checked on this Saison yesterday. It's currently down to 1.011, although taste wise it still tastes sweet. Possibly due to the jaggery. I only used 4oz of jaggery in the whole 6 gal batch, but it could be a type of sugar that isn't easily processed by yeast...I don't know but it's still fermenting now and actually developed a nice new creamy white krausen on the surface a few hours after I took the sample last night. I'm hoping this gets down to 1.005 or lower.

So for those of you out there with 3724 stalling problems, highly recommend pitching a huge starter of 1056, or a straight 1056 yeast cake.

i just bottled my saison. had no problems with the yeast at all.
put it in the closet with a sleeping bag wrapped around it. kept the between 75 and 79.
was in there for almost 4 weeks.

I used the 3724 to make my first Saison, I was expecting the yeast to stall - OG was 1.060 and in 2 weeks time I reached a SG of 1.010! From all the things I've heard about this yeast I can't believe that this can be true. I started at 20C (68F) increased the temp 2 degrees everyday up to 30C (86F). The temperature here is hot- up to 34C (93.2F) and up. I made a late addition of sugar ( about a week), made a syrup, cooled it and poured it in the carboy. I'm getting ready to bottle tomorrow.

Tell me I'm not dreaming... Was there an error in what I've done? Why did it not stall like the others, is it possible that the sugar is too thick to be mixed in the beer due to my late addition - thus an error in reading? I did swirl it every other day.

BTW the samples were delicious!

aldousbee said:

I used the 3724 to make my first Saison, I was expecting the yeast to stall - OG was 1.060 and in 2 weeks time I reached a SG of 1.010! From all the things I've heard about this yeast I can't believe that this can be true. I started at 20C (68F) increased the temp 2 degrees everyday up to 30C (86F). The temperature here is hot- up to 34C (93.2F) and up. I made a late addition of sugar ( about a week), made a syrup, cooled it and poured it in the carboy. I'm getting ready to bottle tomorrow.

Tell me I'm not dreaming... Was there an error in what I've done? Why did it not stall like the others, is it possible that the sugar is too thick to be mixed in the beer due to my late addition - thus an error in reading? I did swirl it every other day.

BTW the samples were delicious!

Click to expand...

Sounds like you've got no problems then

aldousbee said:

I used the 3724 to make my first Saison, I was expecting the yeast to stall - OG was 1.060 and in 2 weeks time I reached a SG of 1.010! From all the things I've heard about this yeast I can't believe that this can be true. I started at 20C (68F) increased the temp 2 degrees everyday up to 30C (86F). The temperature here is hot- up to 34C (93.2F) and up. I made a late addition of sugar ( about a week), made a syrup, cooled it and poured it in the carboy. I'm getting ready to bottle tomorrow.

Tell me I'm not dreaming... Was there an error in what I've done? Why did it not stall like the others, is it possible that the sugar is too thick to be mixed in the beer due to my late addition - thus an error in reading? I did swirl it every other day.

BTW the samples were delicious!

Click to expand...

Yup, sounds like you were one of the lucky ones!

aldousbee said:

I used the 3724 to make my first Saison, I was expecting the yeast to stall - OG was 1.060 and in 2 weeks time I reached a SG of 1.010! From all the things I've heard about this yeast I can't believe that this can be true. I started at 20C (68F) increased the temp 2 degrees everyday up to 30C (86F). The temperature here is hot- up to 34C (93.2F) and up. I made a late addition of sugar ( about a week), made a syrup, cooled it and poured it in the carboy. I'm getting ready to bottle tomorrow.

Tell me I'm not dreaming... Was there an error in what I've done? Why did it not stall like the others, is it possible that the sugar is too thick to be mixed in the beer due to my late addition - thus an error in reading? I did swirl it every other day.

BTW the samples were delicious!

Click to expand...

The key to this yeast is to blast it with temps in the low 90's from ramp up and keep it there. I have this yeast down to a science now after many trials and tribulations and I have found that keeping it hot is the key. I usually dial in around 90 or 91' and have had fantastic results.

Will be bottling later- if there are no bottle bombs then I'm really lucky.