Brettanomyces in St. Bretta and Hopsavant

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ssray2000

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I am trying to culture dregs from bottles of St. Bretta and Hopsavant. Do they use different Brett strains for these two beers? Any input would be very helpful.
Thanks guys!
 
I believe those two are CMY01 only. I don't have a a source to show you, just going off what my friend who's a Cellar Reserve member and slightly obsessed with CS in general has told me.
 
I just used brett from hop savant in a 100% brett batch, so Im curious myself. If it really is just one strain, I would be very impressed that so much brett character is coming from just a single strain. Its very aromatic, surprisingly tart and attenuated over 90%. My experience with brett trois as the primary yeast has been very different in all aspects.
 
I recently cultured dregs from both beers (Spring St. Bretta and Hop Savant from around then too). Started with 250mL 1.030 wort for about ~8 days and stepped up to 2L with 1.040 wort for another ~8 days for both. I don't know if they have the same brett strains, but they did have noticeably different fermentations pitching into ~6 gal each.

I brewed the St. Bretta version a few months ago. It had a vigorous start and had noticeable activity for about a month then visually no signs. I split that into separate three gallon carboys after around 5-6 weeks (1/2 on 10 lbs apricots!). What I sampled was nicely soured already and impressibly drinkable for such a short time. Similar flavor profile of the St. Bretta (I used a similar recipe to what he has published), but definitely much more sour. Was down to 1.006 from 1.052, so nearly 90%. Dropped relatively clear.

The Hop Savant dregs had a very lengthy and slow fermentation with tight white bubble and 1/2" head consistantly streaming for almost two months. It was filled all the way to the neck so the 1/2" isn't that much volume. Still a bit cloudy. Both beers fermented in the low 70s.

Still haven't tried that one, but I do suspect it will be very sour especially after tasting the decanted beer from the starter. Although he labels his bottles "100% Brett" I think there is definitely lacto in these beers. Pretty sure stepping up the dregs shifted the ratios more towards the lacto for mine.

Recently finished a 100% brett IPA with trois and there is very little acidity, tropical fruit (mainly hops), but pretty clean over all and hard to really distinguish the brett at this point - especially with so much hop character right now. A little over 80% attenuation on that one. That one's around 6 weeks old and been on tap for 2. Just my recent experience.
 
I just opened a bottle of my 100% brett pale ale last night. This beer is quite tart, to the point where I would suspect there is lacto in the beer if I hadnt made it myself. Either there is a very hearty strain of lacto in there that wasnt inhibited by the IBU's in this beer, or the brett is producing creating some very tart flavors. It doesnt seem to taste like lactic acid to me, but I can tell its not acetic acid for sure.

Im glad I have 5 gal of this in bottles. Very interesting and delicious beer. Tangy, fruity sourness with a lot of mosaic and galaxy character. The oats I used provide enough body to give some mouthfeel to this dry beer.

Building up the brett from hop savant was worth the time. Ill have to keep this culture around for a while. Currently waiting to see how it acts as a secondary fermenter in my biere de garde.
 
Several brett strains make acids other than acetic beyond the flavor threshold. Kinda kills the 'brett won't make sour beer argument.'
 
Several brett strains make acids other than acetic beyond the flavor threshold. Kinda kills the 'brett won't make sour beer argument.'

Which strains and acids? Any actual studies shown that? I've certainly brewed some tart beers with Brett alone, but nothing that I feel fits the acidity of a true "sour" beer.
 
Which strains and acids? Any actual studies shown that? I've certainly brewed some tart beers with Brett alone, but nothing that I feel fits the acidity of a true "sour" beer.

I don't know of any studies so purely anectdoatal. CMY01 seems to make tart beer, that tastes more lactic than acetic. The bug county lamebic i have going is a citrus bomb (which I've heard from others also) and Al says that one or more of the strains in there makes citrus acid. ECY03B starter, albeit from a stir plate, was very pleasantly acidic and not acetic, though it didn't seem particulalry citric either. A friend with a lab is checking out the WLP 645 beer I made that was very lactic. I'm looking forward to seeing if he finds the same blend of brett, pichia, and lacto CY did.

I'm not a big fan of the term 'sour beer', although I did use it in my original post. I don't really like sour anything, I prefer tart. Maybe that's just sour grapes. ;)
 
I don't know of any studies so purely anectdoatal. CMY01 seems to make tart beer, that tastes more lactic than acetic. The bug county lamebic i have going is a citrus bomb (which I've heard from others also) and Al says that one or more of the strains in there makes citrus acid. ECY03B starter, albeit from a stir plate, was very pleasantly acidic and not acetic, though it didn't seem particulalry citric either. A friend with a lab is checking out the WLP 645 beer I made that was very lactic. I'm looking forward to seeing if he finds the same blend of brett, pichia, and lacto CY did.

I'm not a big fan of the term 'sour beer', although I did use it in my original post. I don't really like sour anything, I prefer tart. Maybe that's just sour grapes. ;)

CMY would be CHads personal collection?
Finnaly grabbed the Stbretta and was interested on the strain he used?
 
CMY would be CHads personal collection?
Finnaly grabbed the Stbretta and was interested on the strain he used?

He's got a bunch. CMY01 is one he developed, I want to say originally isolated from 3F, but not sure about that. Many of his beers have multiple brett strains or bugs as well, but a few of them, including St Brett IIRC, are CMY01 only.
 
I don't know of any studies so purely anectdoatal. CMY01 seems to make tart beer, that tastes more lactic than acetic. The bug county lamebic i have going is a citrus bomb (which I've heard from others also) and Al says that one or more of the strains in there makes citrus acid. ECY03B starter, albeit from a stir plate, was very pleasantly acidic and not acetic, though it didn't seem particulalry citric either. A friend with a lab is checking out the WLP 645 beer I made that was very lactic. I'm looking forward to seeing if he finds the same blend of brett, pichia, and lacto CY did.

I'm not a big fan of the term 'sour beer', although I did use it in my original post. I don't really like sour anything, I prefer tart. Maybe that's just sour grapes. ;)

Cool. My issue is always how clean a fermentation actually is. It is often difficult to say definitively that a beer with Brett added is sour because of the Brett, unless you have someone looking at it under the microscope to ensure there isn’t also bacteria in there. I don’t know about you, but my Brett gear is also my sour gear. This is doubly true when it comes to smaller yeast labs, but as you mentioned can be an issue with even cultures from the big established places.

I think GENERALLY it is still true that if you want a moderate-high level of acidity (say a classic gueuze, Flemish Red, Berliner etc. or the new wave of American Sours) you need to have lactic acid bacteria in there, not just Brett.

He's got a bunch. CMY01 is one he developed, I want to say originally isolated from 3F, but not sure about that. Many of his beers have multiple brett strains or bugs as well, but a few of them, including St Brett IIRC, are CMY01 only.

Yep, CMY01 is just one of the components from BSI Brett Drie. During Chad's Masters he ID'd two different colony morphologies, matte and shiny, that strain is one of those.
 
I am trying to culture dregs from bottles of St. Bretta and Hopsavant. Do they use different Brett strains for these two beers? Any input would be very helpful.
Thanks guys!

I recently pulled out 6 different strains, identified by colony morphology, from 4 Crooked Stave beers: Hop Savant (2), St. Bretta (1), Surette (2) and Vieille (1). Currently in the throws of running some test fermentations on them. Which ones if any are the same remains to be seen.
 
The following info may help. Chad mentioned that:

"Hop Savant would have been primarily CMY001, which is an off shoot of the Drie strain. I haven't been able to check its stability but it has been fairly consistent so I believe it to be more "domesticated".

Vieille and Surette will be a mixed culture, It will have at least 3 strains of Brett likely in the neighborhood of 5+. As it is a blend of older vintages as well which use a mixed culture there will be plenty of bacteria, both Pedio and Lacto and I'm sure plenty more!"
 
The following info may help. Chad mentioned that:

"Hop Savant would have been primarily CMY001, which is an off shoot of the Drie strain. I haven't been able to check its stability but it has been fairly consistent so I believe it to be more "domesticated".

Vieille and Surette will be a mixed culture, It will have at least 3 strains of Brett likely in the neighborhood of 5+. As it is a blend of older vintages as well which use a mixed culture there will be plenty of bacteria, both Pedio and Lacto and I'm sure plenty more!"

I got 2 very noticeably different colonies from the Surrette and Hop Savant, but this makes me want to take the Surette and Vieille plates back out and let them keep growing, and see if I can get some giant colony morphology to uncover one or two more.

Thanks for the info!
 
I wrote to Chad few days ago. This is what he wrote back:

Hi,

Thanks for reaching out! Depending the batch we use a yeast called Drie as our house Brett. We use the same strain for both beers.

Depending the batch of St. Bretta we likely have a nice resident bacteria strain as well!

Cheers,
Chad

Owner/Brewer
Crooked Stave Artisan Beer Project
1441 W. 46th Ave. Unit 19
Denver, CO. 80211
 
About to brew some 1 gallon batches this weekend using these 6 strains from Crooked Stave along with another 4 other strains (1 brett, 3 "clean"), and in the starters I've been raising from colonies, one of the Surette colonies is very fruity/tropical and a top cropper, a Hop Savant colony and the St. Bretta colony are a pretty vigorous fermenter with some decent funky aromas, and the other 3 are mildly funky and fruity or neutral on the nose. Very excited to taste the beers in a few months!
 
So, does anyone here who has brewed with Crooked Stave yeast have any updates or anecdotes?

I agree with TNGabe about CMY001 - it gives a noticeable lactic character to my homebrew. Although isolated from Drie Fonteinen, it seems to be much more tart than Brett Brux Trois.
 
So, does anyone here who has brewed with Crooked Stave yeast have any updates or anecdotes?

I agree with TNGabe about CMY001 - it gives a noticeable lactic character to my homebrew. Although isolated from Drie Fonteinen, it seems to be much more tart than Brett Brux Trois.

A friend emailed CS recently and was told that all of their beers have lacto now.
 
So I recently revived my culture of CMY01. I've done some 100% fermentations and some mixed ones with it...

Has anyone struck upon a really nice combo with this yeast that includes co-pitching it with another brett or sacch strain?
 
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