Espresso brewers, roasters, lovers...

So I have been roasting coffee for a while, nearly a year. I love it, I really do enjoy having one FINE coffee drink per day.

A month ago I was in Little Cuba (Miami, FL) and had some killer espresso, so I began xploring this.

Have some tasty beans from SweetMarias, roasted to the beginning of the second crack.

Ground FINE, tamped quite firm.

Measured to 7g of grounds for a single shot.

I am on the verge of losing the mouse tail, but can only pull a 15 second shot before reaching 1.5 oz of espresso.

I am getting a very nice caramel crema, it lasts to the end of the cup

Is it a concern that the shot length is only 15 seconds?

Is this a machine specific term?

I lurv me some Espresso only, I use the old school Italian percolator type maker.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004RFRU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If I pull a 15 second shot with this, I am drunk.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Is this a machine specific term?

I lurv me some Espresso only, I use the old school Italian percolator type maker.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004RFRU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If I pull a 15 second shot with this, I am drunk.

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Is what a machine specific term?

The Pol said:

I am on the verge of losing the mouse tail, but can only pull a 15 second shot before reaching 1.5 oz of espresso.

I am getting a very nice caramel crema, it lasts to the end of the cup

Is it a concern that the shot length is only 15 seconds?

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Any of the above. Like I said I ahve always done it old school so, if these are terms specific to the steam machines I can't offer anything other than I am an Espresso lover and use the percolator type maker.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Any of the above. Like I said I ahve always done it old school so, if these are terms specific to the steam machines I can't offer anything other than I am an Espresso lover and use the percolator type maker.

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These are specific... I have a pump machine (15 bar), they wont apply to the percolators.

I am wondering about under extraction due to the short shot length.

I mean, it tastes great... nice crema... just curious

You use sweet marias? Roast them at home?

The Pol said:

You use sweet marias? Roast them at home?

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Nah. I get comped pre-roasted beans from a local hot house. Pops used to work in coffee line automation prgramming machines in binary. The guy was a friend he helped set-up some small scale machines.

It's prolly just the crap he sweeps up from the floor but, it's tasty.

There is a roaster near here, but I am in the process of playing with roasts and bean varieties.

Just curious.

I have read that they recommend a 25 second shot for "proper" extraction of the bean flavor.

They also say though to have a nice fine constant flow to the cup, not a broken/dripping stream.

Problem is, I am grinding as fine as I can, tamping very firmly, just barely getting a constant flow to the cup, and it only takes 15 seconds to pull a 1.5 oz shot of espresso.

Probably NOT a problem, just looking for more information about how others are doing it.

I HAVE gotten into the practice of doing a "dry" run before I brew. Basically running a brewing cycle with no coffee in the filter so that I can pre-heat the filter, cup... everything. Seems to have improved the formation of the crema.

Gila I use a similar contraption--they make great brew, delicious. Better than I've had from some expensive, complicated machines--better crema sometimes, too. (Mine is stainless rather than the old school aluminum.)

They're not technically percolators, though. They're moka pots. A percolator actually boils the water in with the grounds--and then the coffee in with the grounds until it turns dark enough. That causes the loss of a lot of the aroma of the beans. And, really, pretty nasty flat coffee. Yuck.

These moka pots force water through the grounds up into the chamber on top by utilizing the compression of steam in the lower chamber. It takes a fine grind, but not usually so fine as commercial espresso machines, and you need to (ideally) turn the heat off before you hear the gurgle to prevent boiling and the loss of aroma.

Percolated coffee is pretty nasty, unless you're camping out at a brewfest somewhere...

I have a little cheap machine that does 15 PSI my draw lasts about 15 seconds as well, it's good so I am happy with it, so I say RDWHAHRES

Saccharomyces said:

I have a little cheap machine that does 15 PSI my draw lasts about 15 seconds as well, it's good so I am happy with it, so I say RDWHAHRES

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Cool cool... my machine is not fancy, but is has excellent reviews and will probably lead me to buy something cooler later.

I am glad to hear that you are getting a 15 second pull too, I dont how the hell you could get a 25 second pull for a 1.5oz cup!

It is good... so I am not complaining... just sayin.

You get your stuff from SM?

I've recently discovered Turkish coffee, and it is deeeeeeeeeeeeeeelicious.

Pol,

What are you grinding with? If you're only getting a 15 second shot before blonding you should grind finer if you're looking for the technically best shot.

I try to get my shots in the 20-25 second range, but I'm not too anal about it. I just count in my head. It comes down to taste, really. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a more bitter shot and I'll let it run blond a little bit before cutting it out. For the wife's latte I'll usually cut it short to just get the sweetest part (like a ristretto).

For the record I'm using a Quickmill Vetrano and Macap M4 grinder.



-Joe

I just went back and re-read your OP: you're using a single basket? 1.5oz is actually a pretty long shot for a single. I use a double basket and pull 2oz shots in 20-25 seconds.

Single shot baskets are supposed to be pretty tough to get right. Have you tried a double basket? What machine are you running (sorry if you said already).

Instead of measuring a precise 7g, try overfilling the basket slightly and screeding it off with your finger. Then tamp. It's much easier and should give you the correct amount of coffee anyway.

Here are a couple of vids of me in action. You can see me filling the basket and sweeping the grinds in the first one. Some numbnuts complained about me sweeping back into the doser which is just him trying to sound smart.

[youtube]LmgwBD138No[/youtube]

[youtube]hhqyydNgrRI[/youtube]

-Joe

I am using a burr grinder, not an expensive one, but I am grinding as fine as it will grind. Add to this that I am tamping pretty tight, so much so that the combination of the two barely allow a solid "tail" to the cup.

I have read.... yes, I know... reading doesnt mean anything, that you should look for a nice thin tail to the cup, not a dripping flow.

The ONLY way I am going to extend the length of the shot is to grind finer, but then I will also be getting a dripping flow, not a "tail".

This is all pretty new to me, I am pretty clueless, but I know I can master it... I want to talk to people like you though who can give me first hand information.

So...

I do have a double shot basket and I can try a run on that tonight... I suspect that if I am getting a 2oz shot from a double shot basket that I will be able to pull a 25 second shot pretty easy.

I am having fun with this, I am using a MrCoffee espresso machine, a pump machine (I personally dont like steam). It is not an expensive machine, but the customer reviews (even from those who have had much more expensive machines) are excellent.

If this goes well, I will be looking into something more serious later.

A pump machine is definitely superior to steam, no question there.

Yes, I think you'll have better luck with a double basket. If you go over to Coffeegeek.com and do a forum search for "single basket" you can read all about the single shot troubles other folks are having

I've never even attempted a shot with a single basket, but I'm going to guess that with the smaller amount of coffee in there you're going to get drips for the first 5-10 seconds of the shot before it coalesces into a mouse tail. Even then you'll likely have problems with channeling.

Useless espresso trivia (speaking of double baskets): a 2oz double shot of espresso still has less caffeine than 8oz of black coffee.

-Joe

Another bit that I forgot: it's generally accepted that you'll make better coffee with a low-end espresso machine and a high-end grinder than the other way around.

Grinders not specifically meant for espresso (even burr ones) simply cannot grind finely enough (as you're finding out) or consistently enough for really good espresso. I took apart the top of my Macap, and the difference in size between the burrs on that and the burrs on my pretty nice Cuisinart burr mill is startling.

-Joe

Well, I re-read your post, I am not getting much blonding at all at say 15 seconds, maybe 20, but I was shooting for the volume.

I watched your vids, I see you stopped shortly after the blonding.

I will pull a double shot tonight and see what my volume is when I get the blonding.

I appreciate your help.

The Pol said:

I appreciate your help.

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I'm always glad to talk shop

-Joe

nostalgia said:

Another bit that I forgot: it's generally accepted that you'll make better coffee with a low-end espresso machine and a high-end grinder than the other way around.

Grinders not specifically meant for espresso (even burr ones) simply cannot grind finely enough (as you're finding out) or consistently enough for really good espresso. I took apart the top of my Macap, and the difference in size between the burrs on that and the burrs on my pretty nice Cuisinart burr mill is startling.

-Joe

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What burr ginrder would you recommend? Mine is not specifically made for espresso, really. I am however going to try a double shot and get right back to you here to let you know what I find!

Don't let your credit card see, but I really love my Macap M4. I think it's still one of the best out there.

A less expensive and often recommended option is the Rancilio Rocky.

You may find better prices, but Chris' Coffee is where I bought my stuff. There also may be more entry level grinders out there, but from my research it seems the Rocky is the start of the "serious" espresso grinders. They should last you a lifetime, which is how I managed to convince myself to spend that much on one

Used is also a very good option. The only thing that generally wears are the burr plates, which are replaceable.

-Joe

Like here, there are literally hundreds of, "What do I need to get started" threads over on CG. For example, from another Coffeegeek member:

If you buy a cheap grinder, you will replace it quickly and end up spending more in the long run than if you buy a good one initially.

Don't buy less than a Rancilio Rocky (some here might make the same statement about Cunill Tranquilo or Gaggia MDF).

If your budget can afford it, jump up to a Mazzer Mini (Macap is probably equivalent).

If your budget can't afford a new Mazzer or Macap, and you have room for a relatively tall grinder, consider a used Mazzer Super Jolly from eBay (around $250). Clean it up, replace the burrs ($30), and maybe replace the tall hopper with a shorter one. For $300-$350 you can end up with a great grinder that will take you through many machine upgrades.

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-Joe

Okay, I can pull 2 ounces in 20 seconds... after that it starts to blonde. The crema is a nice caramel, with a lighter spot where the flow wsa directed as it began to blonde. This is with the double shot basket...

The crema is thicker, that is for sure.

Well, I can get a Rancilio Rocky for $350 NEW at Walmart... Walmart.

So, the grinder makes the espresso, NOT the machine. Hrmm, interesting concept. My daughter has been helping me roast the beans. I am reading up on the Rancilio Rocky Doser model, I like the Doser idea, to dispense enough for a shot. Found one new for $299... still looking

Do you roast your own?

Do you get them at SM?

What type do YOU like?

What roast level do YOU use?

I read at SM that they really never go above FC+, on anything, as it seems to take too much away from the BEAN itself. What say you?

Soaking it all in.

Anyone have a recommendation on WHERE I can find a used Rancilio Rocky?

I am reading Sweet Marias last night, and they are pulling 1.5oz shots that run 20-30 seconds, I SO need to get a finer grind.

See, this is what happens when I idle my brewery, dammit.

The Pol said:

So, the grinder makes the espresso, NOT the machine. Hrmm, interesting concept. My daughter has been helping me roast the beans. I am reading up on the Rancilio Rocky Doser model, I like the Doser idea, to dispense enough for a shot. Found one new for $299... still looking

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Well, the machine is important to a point. It needs to provide you with even pressure and temp for the whole length of the shot, which it sounds like yours does. So that machine should do everything you'll need it to, espresso-wise. A machine like mine is mostly bells-and-whistles for convenience and speed - it's a heat exchanger, so I don't need to wait for the boiler to come up to temp to make steam, and I can steam all day long. Rotary pump is quieter and allegedly more durable than a vibe pump. So on and so forth.

Like the difference between a simple all-grain setup and a HERMS/RIMS system. You're gonna make great beer either way.

The Pol said:

Do you roast your own?

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Yes, we're using a Gene Cafe, which is just amazing. My wife got hooked on roasting so that's her gig.

The Pol said:

Do you get them at SM?

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Beans? Much of the time, yes. We also get greens from coffeebeancorral.com.

The Pol said:

What type do YOU like?

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Hmm...whatever my wife is making that week I am quite fond of Ethiopians, though.

The Pol said:

What roast level do YOU use?

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Depends on the bean, but generally not far into second crack. Sometimes earlier.

The Pol said:

I read at SM that they really never go above FC+, on anything, as it seems to take too much away from the BEAN itself. What say you?

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I agree with that. Generally for single origins we're much lighter, probably city+, full city at the most. You do get more of the bean character and less of the roast character. For a blend she may go darker on some than others to get more roast character in there.

-Joe

Any idea where to find GOOD used equiment? CoffeeGeek has a really limited classifieds section.

Found some Rancilio Silvias with PID control.... ghahhhhhh

Everytime I read about home roasting and expresso my wallet really begins to burn a hole in my pocket! Someday I really want to get into this.

Interesting thread guys. Carry on...

Bopper359 said:

Everytime I read about home roasting and expresso my wallet really begins to burn a hole in my pocket! Someday I really want to get into this.

Interesting thread guys. Carry on...

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It is pricey... this time of year is a good time for me to do this.

I NEED the grinder, and would LIKE to explore the idea of a PID controlled machine too.

I'll second the very good grinder and decent machine path.

I have nice commercial equipment that I bought for my office but at home I use a PID'ed Silvia and a Doserless Rocky. (My pid unit is from Auber.)

I love both pieces of equipment. I agree that getting at least to Rocky quality grinder is a must but after that temp control on the espresso machine during the shot is the most important. I would rather have a PID'ed Gaggia Classic than a non PID Silvia.

I also found that a bottomless portafilter was critical to fine tuning grind and tamp and to make sure I had no channeling. With a standard portafilter the shot can look normal but come out more bitter because of channeling and you will have no idea. Besides the bottomless is essential for capturing espresso pron photos.

Sweet Marias has refurb equipment from time to time. Also 1st line: http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=999991

You don't save too much on the Rancilio equipment as refurb. $50-$75 seems about right. Interesting thing is that the equipment seems to appreciate in value. I paid $279 new for my Rocky 2 years ago and now I see refurbs going for $299.

The Pol said:

It is pricey...

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The nice thing is it's only pricey one time, once you settle on a machine and grinder combo. As I'm sure you already know, green beans are *much* less expensive than pre-roasted, and the only thing you'll pay for with the machine is some Cafiza to clean it. My tub of Cafiza has been around over 2 years and I think I've used 1/4 of it so far.

Dontman has given some good suggestions - 1stline had good prices last time I checked.

I was considering PID machines as well, but decided a heat exchanger (HX) machine was more my speed. I like the fact that I can pull a shot or make steam whenever I feel like it without having to worry about what temp the boiler is set at. The giant boiler can also make steam all day long without having to recycle. Since I host parties, that was very important to me.

I also considered a full-on double boiler machine, but I didn't want to sell a kidney

-Joe

Bopper359 said:

Everytime I read about home roasting and expresso my wallet really begins to burn a hole in my pocket! Someday I really want to get into this.

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Home roasting is easy to get into cheaply. Some folks use a stainless dog food bowl and a heat gun. Others use a $20 air popcorn popper. Green beans are $4/lb for most varieties, and you can very easily roast coffee that tastes better than $20/lb pre-roasted.

As for espresso, you really can't skimp on a grinder, so expect $250 and up there. However, you've got a ton of options for machines.

I have actually heard a ton of good things about the Aeropress. Seems crazy, but I hear it works surprisingly well. Amazon has it for $26, free shipping.

-Joe

nostalgia said:

Home roasting is easy to get into cheaply. Some folks use a stainless dog food bowl and a heat gun. Others use a $20 air popcorn popper. Green beans are $4/lb for most varieties, and you can very easily roast coffee that tastes better than $20/lb pre-roasted.

As for espresso, you really can't skimp on a grinder, so expect $250 and up there. However, you've got a ton of options for machines.

I have actually heard a ton of good things about the Aeropress. Seems crazy, but I hear it works surprisingly well. Amazon has it for $26, free shipping.

-Joe

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Thanks for the advice. I definitely want to get into this hobby eventually. I love quality coffee and the DIY aspect of home roasting is very appealing to me.

Joe, Back when I bought my Silvia I was really on the fence with the beautiful Quickmill machines. I had the Anita in my shopping cart a half dozen times with my finger hovering over the checkout button. I remember it being $999 from Chris Coffee. Now it is $1450! Am I misremembering?

If so this is a prime example of the value appreciation to which I was referring.

For me the decision between HX and single boiler came down to the number of shots pulled on any occasion. For the most part I pull two shots per day. I do not serve individual espressos at my dinner parties because of the time involved.

As far as green coffee offerings; I just purchased my December supply and in that I have a couple bags of the same Nicaragua Limoncello DP that Tom at SM has. I know it is the same because we got it from the same crop. Stunning coffee. I rate this as one of my top three offerings this year. The other two were over $20/pound wholesale. If you like fruit bomb coffees (think Ethiopia Harar or Yemen) you will love this coffee.

Tom also has Panama Las Flores. Another great WP panama. This one is undervalued in my opinion as I getting used to having to pay huge prices for COE Panamas.

Both of these will take FC nicely which is good for espresso although the Limoncello is a tad bright for espresso.

EDIT: I am not a fan of the Aeropress. I sold it to customers for a while until I had two customers who had accidents with them which left them injured. The bottom plastic piece popped off during the full press which caused a virtual explosion of hot coffee and on one occasion, glass from the broken mug.

I know it is like buying a Sabco, and I may be considered a loser in coffee nerd circles (maybe not???), but I LOVE my Jura.

http://www.capresso.com/automatic-coffee-centers-z5.shtml

I don't know how great my coffee tastes are, but I know what tastes good and bad and am picky about my espresso. I love the shots I make with this machine. It is also nice to have a mindless cappuccino made for me int he morning. It may not be for fiddlers, and it is pricey, but it is the best thing in my kitchen. I got it for like 75% of at Williams Sonoma...

You know what comes next once you get your shot down pat, right? Latte art! No one can resist trying...







-Joe

That is pretty awesome... any how to's or pointers for someone who has never done it?

Can I do that with my espresso crema?

It looks like you have added just a bit of carefully placed frothed milk on top of a latte, then shaped it by pulling with a knife or similar??? right track?

EDIT:

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Latte-Art

nope, that's all done while pouring. just like the Guinness lucky charm pour

I've got cherries and hearts down on my pours. That's as far as I've ever tried to go.

Okay, so I am sipping some espresso...

I do need a finer grind, I know this. I head "read" that if your grinder is not capable of stopping up your machine, then it isnt capable of grinding fine enough.

I am getting a consistent 2oz double shot in 20 seconds, Id love to extend that to 30 seconds, as I have pretty noticeable blonding at 20 seconds.

Anyhow... I took some of my new calibratable thermometers and did some testing. My water temperature at the filter basket is about 198F, so from what I have "read" that is good. Not adjustable like a sweet PID machine but good.

Am I really crazy for wanting to spend the dough on a Rancilio? Also... is it really worth paying $500 for a Silvia? I mean it is not a LOW end machine, but not HIGH end either, I wonder what I may gain?

I saw your video Nostalgia.... that is pretty sweet. I would love to learn to do something artisitc.

So... do you guys drink your espresso shots STRAIGHT much?