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FatsSchindee said:
Thanks for the reply, TD. That's a good point about the small addition of 30 minutes more boiling time, relative to the months it'll be before I taste one of these... Might as well! I'll just have to figure out a good boil off rate for 90... Would it make sense to just take my 60 and add half? I'm guessing 1.5 gal pre-boil might leave me with around a gallon after 90 min? I've only ever done 5+ gal, 60 min, batches, so not sure how the lesser volume and more time will affect it. As a test this afternoon, I just boiled 1.5 gal of water for 60 min, and was only left with 53% of that (a 47% boil-off rate!). That's way higher than anything I've ever gotten on the bigger batches (which I haven't measured that assiduously, as I only do partial boils and then top up - so it's not as important exactly how much I lose during the boil. But just from eyeballing it, I know it's never been that much!). The only other reference I personally have is during a 15 min boil of DME and water for a yeast starter - I lost 500ml from a 2.3L boil to end up with 1.8L... That's about 22%, which seems closer to normal. Though again, that was only 15 min. I've heard JZ and JP on Brewstrong say 10-15% is a normal 60 min boil-off rate, and I think I've read something similar elsewhere. I guess that the smaller the volume, the higher the boil-off rate gets? I need to search around here for some more info (I haven't looked through the "one gallon brewers unite" thread yet, because its ridiculously long, but I'm sure there's some good info in there...

Just to update my results, I did end up running both the Oktoberfest and the Bohemian Pilsener at the same time. The boil-off rate for the smaller volume B'Pils was almost what I measured with my test. I decided to start with 2 gal and do a 90 min boil (good advice to try to avoid DMS, since I did a partial mash with Weyermann Pils malt as 33% of the grain bill. And good to hear your we're able to get rid of the DMS in your Helles, TD!). I thought I'd rather be slightly high, and have the OG be slightly lower, than have a slightly lower volume and have to top up (I guess that'd result in a lower OG, too, but preferred to be closer to a "full volume" boil). Anyway, I ended up with slightly more than the gallon I was shooting for. I didn't measure it, but eyeballed it to be about 1/10 of a gallon. I had a theoretical OG of 1.054, and an actual one of 1.050... Running the numbers backward would show that to fit a volume of 1.08 or so, so my guess of an extra 0.1 seems about right (that's assuming my minimash efficiency was spot on (65%), etc). So that is a 46% boil-off, for 90 min. Which is similar to my test in the same pot, but starting with 1.5 gal for only 60 min (47%).... So even an extra .5 gal makes a big difference (33% extra, at those volumes) in reducing the boil-off rate!

And for the O'fest, I boiled 3.5 gal for a hour, had almost exactly a 0.5 gal boil-off, and topped up with 2.5 gal chilled water for 5.5 in the fermentor. At least I have that size rate dialed in! Both are in the ferm chamber at 50* and happily fermenting away...
 
so I did a few lagers last winter and loved e'm planning on doing it again this winter I live on a sailboat in alaska which makes things interesting my cabin is about 52 degrees so that's what i ferment at but its hard to do a D-rest is there a strain of yeast that would be best for that? (i use wyeast products ) any ideas would be appreciated
 
so I did a few lagers last winter and loved e'm planning on doing it again this winter I live on a sailboat in alaska which makes things interesting my cabin is about 52 degrees so that's what i ferment at but its hard to do a D-rest is there a strain of yeast that would be best for that? (i use wyeast products ) any ideas would be appreciated

I've heard if you choose a strain (check out the whitelabs or the wyeast pages) that is low is Diacetyl production, AND if you keep fermentation temps under 50º that you can possibly skip this step. I am still on the learning curve of lager brewing though.

TD
 
Update on my Munich Helles.

I tried to purge the kegs by bubbling CO2 through a carbonation stone. I had let them rise to room temp and purged the gas then let them sit a few days. After they had warmed and de-gassed, I bubbled the CO2 through the diffusion stone until I couldn't smell anymore DMS. I chilled, and thought (since it was a 0.5 micron stone) that the beer would be carbed pretty well. I let it sit overnight on usual dispense presssure after it had chilled for a full day.

Today, I poured a glass of my brew and another glass of Hofbrau Original. My brew is certainly NOT fully carbonated anymore, and in manipulating the keg, I notice it is now hazy or cloudy slightly, though I can't tell which, and before I did the CO2 purge, it had been clear. I suspect that I've disturbed some keg sediment that should settle out.

aroma. Still a distinctive DMS aroma that is not detectable in the Hofbrau sample. I will purge some more.

flavor & Mouthfeel is similar. both are very close and I couldn't really say which is which if just going by mouth feel. the undercarbonation tends to become noticeable in my sample however, but that will change when properly carbonated. The malt flavors seem very similar, though I am distracted by the DMS.

Hop presence is much more noticeable in the Hofbrau than in mine. There has to be something going on here BESIDES just alpha acids. I wonder if it is water chemistry. I believe I did use RO water and adjust the Calcium Chloride and in general tried to emulate Kai's recommendations. My sample is bit more rounded and smooth compared with the more noticeable hop bitterness and also aroma and flavor that comes through on the Hofbrau sample, though I don't know how much is CO2 (probably not much).

I definitely missed the mark, but is still enjoyable to drink. I suspect that the beer will clear with some settling time, and that I will let it rest for a while longer in the serving fridge and try to simply reverse the gas post to bubble some more CO2 into the beer and try to vent or scrub more DMS out. I wonder if in doing so the first time, that I may have also scrubbed out some of the hop presence. I will definitely brew again. My boil kettle burner was burning too weak, and I have solved that problem once and for all.. even had boilover on my last brew! I think that might be the key for me if I had poor hop extraction due to poor boiling? Maybe Ill try adding some flavor and aroma hops in addition to the bittering hops next time and see where that gets me. I'm pretty certain the clarity will improve after it settles out, and I assume its just some keg sediment that has been stirred up. I had not added any finings to the fermented beer, but that might be a next step.

TD
 
I've heard if you choose a strain (check out the whitelabs or the wyeast pages) that is low is Diacetyl production, AND if you keep fermentation temps under 50º that you can possibly skip this step. I am still on the learning curve of lager brewing though.

TD

TD, there are some good strains that usually don't need a D-rest if you are pitching a big starter into cold wort. You could follow a more traditional schedule where you slowly chill to lagering after fermentation ends. I'm not sure if you have the ability to do this.
 
TD, there are some good strains that usually don't need a D-rest if you are pitching a big starter into cold wort. You could follow a more traditional schedule where you slowly chill to lagering after fermentation ends. I'm not sure if you have the ability to do this.

Yes, I've heard this as well. I use a temp controlled freezer so I am able to do this.

TD
 
Next steps for the dopplebock. Brewed a month ago.

I had pulled a sample from the conical and had left it out to test SG. Got to about 1.027 before I finally dumped it because I needed my hydrometer flask. It appears it was still fermenting. I prob should've saved it, but I guess that pretty good since I m happy it made it below 1.030. Beersmith says FG 1.020 predicted. We will see.
So I believe that I will need to check the SG on the beer in the conical to see where it is at, BUT what are the next steps? I think I will find that primary fermentation is over and that I am within the last 10 points of attenuation. The fermentation freezer is set at 49°F and has been the whole time, though I think I pitched at 52°F

When should I start dumping the yeast? (Anybody want some WLP838 in central FL?) attenuation range per WL is 68-76%, thought their mini ferment data says 78%. According to my pseudo FFT, I am at 71% (1.027). 1.022 is close to 76%, and 1.020 is 78.6%. Hopefully that's where I'll end up.

Diacetyl or no diacetyl rest? Want to avoid fusels though. Thought I read that if fermenting below 50 can skip the diacetyl, though it was probably a good 8 hours above 50 at the beginning , since I pitched at 52.

Any suggestions on de-aerating the conical sample when I pull some for a hydrometer reading? Shaking, repeated pouring between vessels?



TD

Edit - the beer in the conical is still in high 30s SG, still has some time to go. Hydro sample tasting great.
 
Update.

Dopplebock, still not finished. 64% apparent attenuation. Down to 1.034 from OG 1.101

I am thinking about pitching a 2 L starter made of dark DME OG 1.080 and pitch at high krausen.

I am open to suggestions. I think that I would be happy to get below 1.030. My FFT I recall I ended up with 1.027, and maybe would've gone another point, possibly two.

Suggestions?
TD
 
I don't understant why you would want to make a 1.080 starter if you're just growing yeast, or why you would need to use dark DME. Starters should be between 1.030 and 1.040 so as not to stress the initial pitch.

You're already at nearly 9% ABV, so any starter is going to have a hard time when tossed into that environment with that much alcohol and nearly zero oxygen. This approach can sometimes work, but it is not guaranteed. I would use WLP099 if you're going to go this route, and even that might not budge it more than a point or two, if at all.
 
g-star said:
I don't understant why you would want to make a 1.080 starter if you're just growing yeast, or why you would need to use dark DME. Starters should be between 1.030 and 1.040 so as not to stress the initial pitch.

You're already at nearly 9% ABV, so any starter is going to have a hard time when tossed into that environment with that much alcohol and nearly zero oxygen. This approach can sometimes work, but it is not guaranteed. I would use WLP099 if you're going to go this route, and even that might not budge it more than a point or two, if at all.

Thanks.

I was thinking a 1.080 starter would help the yeast acclimate to the fermenting/stalled beer so they wouldn't be instantly shocked. I think this is a common Misperception (that high gravity starters are needed for high gravity beer) so thanks for pointing that out. If I do this ill keep it below 1.040

I'm not really interested in growing yeast, I just want them active and ready to eat. I doubt no matter what malt I use for that starter will matter, but its a darkish beer so I figure isn't going to hurt using dark DME. . Since its not an initial pitch, I don't really need a lot of yeast, but just vital and healthy yeast to try to finish off the job.

As far as zero oxygen, the yeast only need that to grow, not to ferment. I don't want to add any oxygen to the beer either. Maybe even pitching a pack of rehydrated dry yeast would be just as effective as making a starter.

I don't think I have very much farther to go, as I mentioned my FFT ended up at 1.027. I don't think any more time in the fermenter as-is, is going to drop the gravity further without some intervention,

TD
 
TD, I'd make a typical starter, maybe 1.050 or 1.060 (a little higher than typical) with any DME and get that spinning on a plate with a new vial of yeast. Aerate it well. After a short duration, add some of the doppel to it. Say for instance, you make a 2L starter, add 1L of your unfinished doppel to it after 12 hours or so, let that spin for a bit and then pitch the whole thing at high krausen. My times may be a bit off, you'll have to judge for yourself based on the activity of the starter. This will get it slightly acclimated to your unfinished doppel, but won't stress the yeast too much initially. I've had luck getting a few extra points out of a beer by doing this - I'm not saying this is the best way or the right way, but it's a method I've used with a little success. The key is to get active yeast back in the beer, but active yeast that are somewhat used to the environment you're putting them in.

IMO your only other option is to pitch on a healthy yeast cake from a beer that did attenuate fully (something you probably don't have). I haven't done this, but I've read on here that some people, that's the only way they can unstick a stuck ferment.
 
Any suggestions on de-aerating the conical sample when I pull some for a hydrometer reading? Shaking, repeated pouring between vessels?

This is a pain in the butt on every lager I make. 50 degree fermented beer still has a lot of trapped CO2 in it when you need to warm it up to 60 or 68 to take a reading. I'd be willing to hear suggestions too, but I've put my sample in an empty (and dry) water bottle (threaded cap) and shook it up, open the cap to let off the pressure and repeat. I've also put my hand over the top of the sampling tube and shook it (messy), I've also just let it degas on its own for a little while and then taken a measurement. Still haven't gotten a good solution.
 
I took a sample, put it into a pint size mason jar and shook the hell out of it. It was STILL too carbonated. I let it sit about 36 hours in the basement (an AWFUL 80 degrees in FL!) and then took a reading and adjusted the reading 1.0315 for temp to get 1.034. It appeared fully decarbonated. I've also taken refractometer readings, and those seem all over the board after corrections. It IS a PITA though...

I ordered a pack of SafLager today. When it arrives, I will rehydrate it in boiled/pressure cooked water that has cooled, and then into a pint size mason jar also sterilized in the pressure cooker. I'll prep another mason jar to collect some fermenting wort from the fermenter and add that to the mason jar and apply the lid loosely. I know it isn't recommended to make a "starter" with dry yeast, but in this case I am just activating it I consider, since the beer is nearly finished fermenting. question is, should I oxygenate this "starter" or add a drop of olive oil ?

Thanks

TD
 
I've never been a believer of the olive oil thing, so I'm not the one to ask....

I don't think this is your typical "starter", so I think activating it and getting it going is exactly what this situation needs, so I like your plan. I'd start it in fresh (no alcohol present) wort, then add your doppel after it's been going for a bit.
 
I'd like clarification of the botteling process.

Do you bottle after lagaring?

Once bottled, do they just condition at ale temp or should they go back into cold storage?
 
At the homebrew level, it can be done before or after bottling.

If bottled after lagering, it is a good idea to add fresh yeast or else risk waiting a long time for the bottles to carbonate.

If bottled first, allow sufficient time for carbonation before dropping the temps down into the 30's for lagering.
 
At the homebrew level, it can be done before or after bottling.

If bottled after lagering, it is a good idea to add fresh yeast or else risk waiting a long time for the bottles to carbonate.

If bottled first, allow sufficient time for carbonation before dropping the temps down into the 30's for lagering.

You'd definitely get more sediment if you lagered in a bottle, though.
 
I don't brew lagers all that often, but when I do, I go straight from primary to keg (I only bottle limited amounts, off a keg with a CP filler).

I stick it in the back of my keezer and use a picnic tap to draw a couple ounces off every few days until I get a pretty clear pour. Then I just let it sit. I taste it every couple of weeks until I think it's ready for prime time
 
I've done a couple lagers, and my last one (a Bo Pils) was a butter bomb, my first such tragedy. I was wondering if the following would work:

Instead of trying to target when you are at 80% (~1.020 or so), would it be acceptable to ferment out the lager completely at the same temp, then raise it to 65F, then add another couple points of fermentables (DME/LME, honey, dextrose, etc), and ferment that at 65F?

I detest having to "hover" around any beer, and taking daily samples to find when my lagers are 80% done is annoying, and clearly I didn't do it correctly on that last one anyway. Would the above method be a more "fool proof" way of fermenting 15-20% of your fermentables at the D-rest temps?
 
I've done a couple lagers, and my last one (a Bo Pils) was a butter bomb, my first such tragedy. I was wondering if the following would work:

Instead of trying to target when you are at 80% (~1.020 or so), would it be acceptable to ferment out the lager completely at the same temp, then raise it to 65F, then add another couple points of fermentables (DME/LME, honey, dextrose, etc), and ferment that at 65F?

I detest having to "hover" around any beer, and taking daily samples to find when my lagers are 80% done is annoying, and clearly I didn't do it correctly on that last one anyway. Would the above method be a more "fool proof" way of fermenting 15-20% of your fermentables at the D-rest temps?

If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).

Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.
 
If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).

Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.

Well said.
 
If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).



Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.


So you pitch in the 40's and reset temp controller to 50 and let it free rise?
 
If you pitch enough clean, healthy yeast (1.5-2.0M cells/ml/*Plato) in the mid-40's and use pure oxygen to add the correct amount of O2, a diacetyl rest becomes unnecessary, and you can just let it ferment at 50F (no hovering).

Diacetyl rests are really just an attempt to correct an avoidable problem with the initial pitch.

I don't currently possess the gear to oxygenate with pure O2. :(

Given this lack of O2, what do you think of the plan of adding extra fermentables specifically for the D-rest?
 
I don't currently possess the gear to oxygenate with pure O2. :(

Given this lack of O2, what do you think of the plan of adding extra fermentables specifically for the D-rest?

Shouldn't be necessary. Aerate as best you can by shaking or with a mix stir and pitch a ton of healthy yeast and you should be good to go.
 
So you pitch in the 40's and reset temp controller to 50 and let it free rise?

Yep. Put your carboy/bucket full of wort into your fermentation chamber and set it to the low 40's. Come back in a few hours when the temperature of the wort has stabilized and pitch your big ass liquid yeast starter. Set the controller to your targeted fermentation temperature and walk away for 2 - 3 weeks. I'd still advise to taste it for diacetyl after the 2nd week not knowing your process, but if you do this you really don't have a need for a D-Rest. You can still do one though if you want to.
 
Lagering is supposed to be done before bottling/packaging.

TD

Thanks. I'll do it this way next time. My last one i wasn't sure so i lagered, bottled and let carb. Then lagered again. What a waste of time. This will save me some headache for sure.
 
Primary fermentation

How long should I keep coopers European lager in primary fermenter before bottling.it has been in the primary fermenter for nearly 5 weeks. Is this too long. What should the fg before bottling.
 
i have my first lager going .. yoopers anchor steam clone, fermenting at 58f. temperature unit set at 55. do i wait till its 75% then take raise to 65? or can i wait till i hit my finished gravity?
 
i have my first lager going .. yoopers anchor steam clone, fermenting at 58f. temperature unit set at 55. do i wait till its 75% then take raise to 65? or can i wait till i hit my finished gravity?

IMO, 58 is a little high. I ferment most of my lagers at 47-48 degrees. I'll start my D-rest when fermentation is about 75% done, then bring it up to room temp and hold until finally gravity and for the yeast to clean up. Sometimes I start the D-rest too late, because I'm not paying attention, but I'll warm up to room temp for a few days anyway. The beer still comes out great.
 
IMO, 58 is a little high. I ferment most of my lagers at 47-48 degrees. I'll start my D-rest when fermentation is about 75% done, then bring it up to room temp and hold until finally gravity and for the yeast to clean up. Sometimes I start the D-rest too late, because I'm not paying attention, but I'll warm up to room temp for a few days anyway. The beer still comes out great.

It's a bit low for and Anchor Steam clone, though. Afaik Anchor pitches that in the low 60s and it rises to the high 60s during ferment.
 
IMO, 58 is a little high. I ferment most of my lagers at 47-48 degrees. I'll start my D-rest when fermentation is about 75% done, then bring it up to room temp and hold until finally gravity and for the yeast to clean up. Sometimes I start the D-rest too late, because I'm not paying attention, but I'll warm up to room temp for a few days anyway. The beer still comes out great.

sorry i didnt post that i am using ..WLP810 San Francisco Lager Yeast

This yeast is used to produce the "California Common" style beer. A unique lager strain which has the ability to ferment up to 65 degrees while retaining lager characteristics. Can also be fermented down to 50 degrees for production of marzens, pilsners and other style lagers.

i will keep an eye on it for 75%
 
It's a bit low for and Anchor Steam clone, though. Afaik Anchor pitches that in the low 60s and it rises to the high 60s during ferment.

i think i will just keep it where its at. been fermenting for two days now. unless i should raise up the temp?
 
sorry i didnt post that i am using ..WLP810 San Francisco Lager Yeast

This yeast is used to produce the "California Common" style beer. A unique lager strain which has the ability to ferment up to 65 degrees while retaining lager characteristics. Can also be fermented down to 50 degrees for production of marzens, pilsners and other style lagers.

i will keep an eye on it for 75%

Yeah ha, I missed that..
 
Ok my anchor steam has been fermenting for only three days and I'm already at 75%.. Is this correct? Should I pull out for the d rest?
 
At the homebrew level, it can be done before or after bottling.

If bottled after lagering, it is a good idea to add fresh yeast or else risk waiting a long time for the bottles to carbonate.

If bottled first, allow sufficient time for carbonation before dropping the temps down into the 30's for lagering.

Based on my (somewhat limited) experience, I question the need for adding fresh yeast. I did five lagers last year, ranging in ABV from about 5% to 8%, with the higher ABV batches lagering for 6-8 months. I primed as usual, and gave them 4-6 weeks and they were carbonated. I hate bottle sediment, so adding additional gunk after letting the trub settle out is a big turn-off for me.

Of course, everyone's experience is different, different yeast behave differently, people have different tolerance/storage space/temp for aging bottles during carbonation, etc. Most of my beers condition in-bottle for 3-4 weeks anyway, but I suppose some might consider 4-6 weeks to be a "long time." In any case, carbonating without additional yeast is certainly possible, even for fairly stout lagers.
 
I'd like some quick help on pitching rates for a 3 gallon Irish Red I'm going to brew Monday. My 2.25 qt. Starter of 2633 Ofest blend doesn't seem to be taking off at all since thursday night despite nutrients and pure O2. I do have two packs of 34/70 in the fridge, will that be enough to cover me for a 3 gallon 1053 batch with pure O2?
 
I'd like some quick help on pitching rates for a 3 gallon Irish Red I'm going to brew Monday. My 2.25 qt. Starter of 2633 Ofest blend doesn't seem to be taking off at all since thursday night despite nutrients and pure O2. I do have two packs of 34/70 in the fridge, will that be enough to cover me for a 3 gallon 1053 batch with pure O2?

2 packs will be more than enough...but is it really an Irish Red with lager yeast?
 
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