Want to make a more complex hefeweizen - what else to use?

I want to do my second AG hefeweizen (have done many extract ones) and would like to get it a bit more complex in flavors. 98% of the recipes I see out there (in magazines and online) all just say pale wheat and pilsner malt or pale malt. Even many of the clone recipes for completely different tasting beers often have nearly identical ingredients. I know I know, a lot of it comes from the process, the yeast, decoctions, etc but I was just wondering what other grains can be used.

I'm kinda thinking of the nice classic banana/clove tasting wheat (not dunkel) but I would like an additional flavor... perhaps let's say a toasty bread kind of flavor added to it but it doesn't have to be that exactly. I've been looking at grains and so far I'm thinking any one of these grains could be possibly be used but some of course would need to be used in very small quantities:

Belgian Biscuit
Belgian Caravienne
Briess Victory
Maris Otter
German Munich
German Vienna
Weyemann Dark wheat
Weyermann Melanoidin

You get the point. Again, not looking to do a dunkel and using Beersmith I see even some of these darker grains can be used in smaller amounts and still keep to the style. Just looking for an extra dimension outside of the standard pale wheat/pilsner malt. Any suggestions?


Rev.

Rev, one thing I've done has been to pitch less yeast when making Hefes or Wit beers. So if you make a starter just pitch a vile next time around. You can also try to increase your fermentation temps too. How much yeast are you pitching?

The Pinkus Hefe uses two-row instead of Pilsner malt and its one of the nicest Hefes around.

I'm a fan of simplicity though--the maltiness and breadiness does not come from specialty malts. I would personally never add anything more than, say 5% Munich. Actually, I would never add Munich to a Hefe, but that's the only suggestion you can get me to utter aloud!

ETA. Actually that's not true. If I were making a more Paulaner-esque Hefe, I would add Munich. You might want to check out this recipe on the NB forum--I think the Carafa II is sacrilege, but the rest of the recipe looks okay. I've used it for inspiration in the past.

You know what I really love? It's not for everyone, but... smoked hefeweizen. Just a little rauchmalt (couple pounds, tops), it's just nice and smooth and warm but light. Real nice beer, something a little unusual.

That's a little out of left field. I've only seen a couple commercial examples, and I've only made it the one time.

Using a little of the Munich might somewhat approximate the effect of pulling a decoction. You could go that route, if you wanted a little more of the bready-type character.

If you're wanting to make a Hefe to style then stick with Pilsner and Wheat (and pitch less yeast IMO). As others have mentione Iwould stay away from any specialty malts. Those phinolic flavors (clove and banana) are a result of the fermentation. If you are wanting to play around and do some different stuff I would suggest tasting a malt you want to use and making a couple of batches with a single specialty malt incorporated into the recipe don'tadd too much at once.thatway youcan dial things in. Sounds fun posst what you decide on and the results.

Sorry, but Complex Hefeweizen is an oxymoron to me.

How bout a complex American Wheat beer? Different hops, higher ibu, different specialty malts, etc...

A Hefeweizen is a Hefeweizen and if it ain't broke, don't fix it IMHO. It's a beautiful thing.

/sniff

I like the flavor of Biscuit Malt. That being said, not sure how it'd work in a Hefe.

Probably won't meet any guidelines, but hell, go ahead. I'm a huge fan of "Will it work? Eh. Try it out." I'd say 10% or so would probably be alright.

stephonovich said:

i like the flavor of biscuit malt. That being said, not sure how it'd work in a hefe.

Probably won't meet any guidelines, but hell, go ahead. I'm a huge fan of "will it work? Eh. Try it out." i'd say 10% or so would probably be alright.

Click to expand...

++1

I typically only use one package of wyeast and ferment only slightly warm - 68 to 70.

As far as hefe's having complexity, they can be very complex even with super simple ingredients. I'm not looking to throw 2-3 other malts in there, just looking to figure out one that may add an additional dimension. Schneider uses more than just pale wheat and pilsner for example, though its kinda between a hefe and dunkel.


Rev.

The key to brewing a good hefeweizen is not the malt bill (or hops) but brewing technique.

You could try a ferulic acid rest or better control of your fermentation temperatures to really nail the spiciness of good weizen yeast.

Or just brew a dunkelweizen! It's a great style too.

I use munich in mine, but my suggestion to you would be to try a decoction. I am one of the believers that performing a decoction definitely leaves an impact on flavor.

EdWort said:

Sorry, but Complex Hefeweizen is an oxymoron to me.

How bout a complex American Wheat beer? Different hops, higher ibu, different specialty malts, etc...

A Hefeweizen is a Hefeweizen and if it ain't broke, don't fix it IMHO. It's a beautiful thing.

/sniff

Click to expand...

I'm with you! I use 50% wheat and 50% pilsner malt with low hops and WLP300.

I just did a small 1gal test batch with Munich and did a sour mash. Hope that adds a bit more of a complex character.

Anything wrong with experimentation? I'm not looking to create some variant category or anything crazy like that, I just got to thinking how a hefe might indeed be rather interestingly different and complex by either changing the base malt, say Maris Otter instead of Pilsner just as a very rough example, or by adding another malt.

I might have given the wrong impression, I've made many successful delicious hefeweizens, mainly with extract and now with AG. I know very well the method makes the most difference - decoction for example, and I noted that in my first post. I'm not saying I need to improve my hefe's, I'm just looking to experiment with adding a new/different taste. Hope that clears up my intention a bit


Rev.

I've done a few 50% Pils malt, 25% Wheat & 25% Dark Wheat and they were good. I'm not sure what the difference is between the 2 wheats - it's what the supplier had at the time. I think the final result was a bit darker in color, but not much.

I've seen some recipes with a lttle Cara-pils too, but I've never tried it.

Chamomile. Check my recipe pulldown over there ←

Well I ordered today and went with a very slight addition to play it safe. I ordered 6lbs Weyermann Pale Wheat, 2lbs Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner, and 1lb of Vienna Malt. I don't need the Vienna to come through tremendously or anything, I just wanted to try mixing things up ever so slightly. I'd still like to try one in the future that maybe has a little melanoidin malt, one that has some light munich, and would also like to try one where I switch out the pilsner malt with some other non-typical hefe 2-row malt (or simply do a 50/50 with Pilsner malt and another 2-row).

I'm going to do it as a multi-step mash, but no decoction just yet, that's a future endeavour.


Rev.