Overcoming Potassium Sorbate in Zeigler's Apple Cider

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jo7hs2

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Hey folks,

I've been struggling for a while to find a source of decent cider/juice here. Apple juice is fine, but I personally prefer something more akin to sweet "cider" for brewing, and for drinking.

Unfortunately, the only source I have here (besides getting some shipped from family in NY, of which quanities are obviously limited) is Zeigler's Apple Cider. Even that is difficult to find most of the time.

**EDIT: There are two orchards about 2 hours away that may carry un-sorbed cider...investigating**

I did manage to find some Zeigler's today at a local Publix. Now, I already knew that there was Potassium Sorbate in their cider, hence why I was avoiding using it for brewing purposes. But, since they had it, I bought a bunch, because I like it regardless.

Anyway, I know that K-sorb doesn't kill yeast, it just inhibits their growth. My question is, does anybody have a fairly reliable method of overwhelming the k-sorb and getting fermentation going?

Should I let the yeast get fired up on some apple juice and nutrient the night before? Should I double dip on the yeast? Any advice?

I will probably brew with two of the following yeasts: WLP720 Sweet Mead/Wine Yeast, WLP775 English Cider Yeast, or Weihenstephan Weizen Wyeast W3068.

Keep in mind that I brew in 1-2 gallon batches.
 
Reading these...

"Potassium Sorbate does not kill the yeast at all, but rather it
makes the yeast sterile. In other words, it impairs the yeast's
ability to reproduce itself. But, it does not hinder the yeast's
ability to ferment sugar into alcohol.

Potassium Sorbate puts a coating on the cell wall of each
individual yeast in such a way that budding or multiplying is
next to impossible.

The idea here is that if you happen to have few cells of live
yeast remaining in your finished wine, they will be rendered
harmless if they are unable to regenerate themselves to great
enough numbers to invigorate a fermentation of any kind. This is
true even if more sugar is added to the finished wine."
- http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-stop-fermentation.html

"Potassium sorbate does not interact with the residual sugar in any way. Sorbate prevents fermentation by acting on the yeast cells, but it does not kill the yeast. Sorbic acid passes through the cell membrane easily, and the yeast cell is prevented from generating a new bud when enough sorbic acid molecules have accumulated. In other words, sorbic acid prevents yeast cells from reproducing, but it does not stop yeast from fermenting sugar.

Sometimes potassium sorbate does not prevent fermentation from restarting because the wine contains too many viable yeast cells. When potassium sorbate and sugar are added to a wine containing many viable yeast cells, the sorbate prevents the yeast from reproducing, but enough yeast cells may be present all ready to ferment the additional sugar. Then, fermentation often occurs after the wine is bottled. The wine is spoiled, and the winemaker is unhappy."
- http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt17.html


...suggest to me that there should be some point where the k-sorb is either all tied up inside yeast cells, or that it might be possible to keep adding active yeast from another fermentation. Hmm...
 
Just noticed this is a previous thread on this very site...

"I did not read the lable and just went out and got 4 gal of Zeiglers Apple cider. It has potasium sorbate in it, but it was already in the carboy when I saw this. So I tought I'd dump it last Sunday, but it started. It is going slow and steady now.

5 - 6 days is a long time. Everything was well sanitized, so I'll let it go and see what it tastes like before I bottle it.

Has anyone else had success with cider with a preservative in it?"


- Sean

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14860&page=121

Wonder how it turned out...
 
I took 1.5 gallons of the Zeigler's cider, and placed it in my 3 gallon carboy. I racked the 1080 recipe that was in the 3-gallon, reserving the bottom inch or so for use as an active starter for the Zeigler's. The Sweet Mead Yeast from that batch was VERY successful, so hopefully it will stand a chance.

Worst case scenario, I drink a whole bunch of slightly alcoholic cider in a few days before it goes bad.
 
Back in my earlier days before I'd found a local orchard, I was making cider with some decent success that originally had K-sorb in it.

Yeast starter/nutrient and maybe a little sugar was all I needed.
 
OdinOneEye,

Good to hear.

The OG of the Zeiglers was in the 1.050 neighborhood, so I didn't add any sugar, but I did add a bunch of yeast nutrient. I've also reserved some extra still fermenting fluids from my last batch, just in case I need to give it a little kick with some extra active yeast.
 
Well, there is certainly IMMEDIATE fermentation activity. About 6 bubbles per minute already, less than 12 hours after starting. Apparently moving active yeast over works VERY fast.

I see this ending one of three ways:
1) This is a game against time, with the challenge being that the yeast need to ferment enough of the sugar before they die off without producing heirs. My insurance policy against this is that I have a half gallon of still fermenting material from the bottom of my 1080 recipe that I am willing to sacrifice to keep fermentation going in this batch.
2) The yeast are present in large enough numbers that SOME of them are still able to reproduce, either by eventually overwhelming the k-sorb in the solution, or by having some resistance to it. Fermentation proceeds as normal.
3) The amount of k-sorb is simply not sufficient, and fermentation proceeds as normal.

OdinOneEye,

When you fermented with the Zeigler's, did you get a lot of top scum? There is about a 1/4" layer of aerated solids on the top of the liquid.
 
Well, on the forth day I am still seeing around 20-30 blurps per minute, with considerable swirling for cider, imo. The crud settled to the bottom after the second day, and the color is a nice butterscotch. Seems like that Zeigler's will settle out some if you let it sit for a few days.

On the second day I dumped the remainder of the .5 gallon of fermenting 1080 recipe into the mix. That comes out to a total of around 1.5 gallons of Zeigler's, and .6 gallons of that 1080 mix, which was testing at a 1.015 and 9.x% abv. That should both give a kick to the yeast, and some alcohol to protect from infections while the little guys do their work.
 
I didn't necessarily use your brand of cider, but yeah I did have some heavy kreusening from time to time. That's nothing to worry about.
It might go a little slower than normal, but from what you're saying, everything is going about normal.

I hope it turns out good!
 
OdinOneEye,

For some reason my mind read "Zeigler's" into your comment, despite the fact that the word was not found in the post. Odd how the mind works sometimes! :drunk:

This definately wasn't Krausen. It was an orange-brown clump of sludgy material under the surface. It sank after the second day, but it looked really nasty as the white-ish bubbles from the yeast were breaking through it. Looked like a chemical spill for the first 36 hours!
 
I have had great outcomes using a store cider with P-sorbate as long as I add about 2lbs of brown sugar to a 5 gallon batch. I hit it with camden tabs and pectin tabs. Let it roll in primary fermentation for about 3 weeks then drop in some P-sorbate to stop fermentation and rack to 2nd after about a day. I believe the key is getting it off the yeast before they stress. Let it dwell in 2nd for about two weeks then keg (you will not be able to bottle carb it with all that p-sorb). I typically end up with a cider that's about 6-7%with a great finish. Most of the original apple taste from the cider stays in tact without any sulfuric off taste. I would always opt to use un treated cider to start but we all know out of season it is rough to find. Try it! you'll like it!
PJB
 
I have been carbonating cider like soda for a few months, Before I knew that the preservatives were supposed to stop this from happening.

At first, I blamed the funky smell on the preservatives, but then I got better yeast and it went away.

I recently accidentally left a gallon of Ziegler's cider out for a week. I am not into brewing anything other than soda, but I decided to taste it. It did not taste good, a little too sour and alcohol-y, but it did not taste at all like the yeast was stressed or dying. I am starting to think that the preservatives really only work to stop things already in the cider from reproducing, but they cannot stop large amounts of yeast from fermenting.
 
I was successfully brewing with Zeiglers for a couple years. But recently, starting around September 2011 I have had trouble fermenting it. 90% of my batches have turned into vinegar.

I emailed Zeiglers to see if they had changed the recipe, but they wrote that they had not changed it. I suspect they might have increased the amount of potassium sorbate.

I'm now planning on using Trader Joes Apple Cider which does not have any preservatives. My first gallon started fermenting strongly right away.
 
"I did manage to find some Zeigler's today at a local Publix. Now, I already knew that there was Potassium Sorbate in their cider, hence why I was avoiding using it for brewing purposes. But, since they had it, I bought a bunch, because I like it regardless."

I had the same issue when I made a mash with dried apricots. The Sunsweet Dried Apricots that I purchased were treated, unknown to me, with potassium sorbate. (Yes, I failed to do my due diligence) I had good Red Star distillers yeast that bloomed fine. I tried pitching the yeast two different times but the mash would not start fermenting. I made a starter with 4oz table sugar, 8oz apricot nectar and 1/2 teaspoon of yeast and water to make 1/2 gallon of starter. It took off in 4 hours bubbling happily. I let it go for 24 hour before adding it to the original mash. It is now fermenting right along. The alcohol is the secret apparently. The details are in this blog post:
http://www.fermentarium.com/homebre...ng-you-know-about-potassium-sorbate-is-wrong/
 
If you live in the states which sounds like you do why not buy Simply Apple? I have seen it sold all over the US in multiple grocery stores (cooler section). That is what I have used for a couple batches. It is unfiltered and pretty sweet(~1.050 SG), plus no additives or pasteurization, hence the cooler section. Only draw back is it is pretty low on acid in my opinion (3.8pH and a low total acidity), but some malic acid addition can fix that.
 
If you live in the states which sounds like you do why not buy Simply Apple? I have seen it sold all over the US in multiple grocery stores (cooler section). That is what I have used for a couple batches. It is unfiltered and pretty sweet(~1.050 SG), plus no additives or pasteurization, hence the cooler section. Only draw back is it is pretty low on acid in my opinion (3.8pH and a low total acidity), but some malic acid addition can fix that.

Out of curiosity did you try out the malic acid or have a rough amount per gallon you would recommend? I primary use Simply Apple for my day to day drinking and would love to give the malic acid a chance. This also seems to be the most cost effective source of pure apple juice around here until fall.
 
If you live in the states which sounds like you do why not buy Simply Apple? I have seen it sold all over the US in multiple grocery stores (cooler section). That is what I have used for a couple batches. It is unfiltered and pretty sweet(~1.050 SG), plus no additives or pasteurization, hence the cooler section. Only draw back is it is pretty low on acid in my opinion (3.8pH and a low total acidity), but some malic acid addition can fix that.
FYI - Simply Apple is pasteurized... they state it is "gently pasteurized". FDA requires a warning label on any unpasteurized juice product, and Simply Apple does not have this warning.
 
"

I had the same issue when I made a mash with dried apricots. The Sunsweet Dried Apricots that I purchased were treated, unknown to me, with potassium sorbate. (Yes, I failed to do my due diligence) I had good Red Star distillers yeast that bloomed fine. I tried pitching the yeast two different times but the mash would not start fermenting. I made a starter with 4oz table sugar, 8oz apricot nectar and 1/2 teaspoon of yeast and water to make 1/2 gallon of starter. It took off in 4 hours bubbling happily. I let it go for 24 hour before adding it to the original mash. It is now fermenting right along. The alcohol is the secret apparently. The details are in this blog post:
http://www.fermentarium.com/homebre...ng-you-know-about-potassium-sorbate-is-wrong/

I very much doubt that the solution is the alcohol. More likely the solution is the number of viable yeast cells. As long as there are significantly more yeast cells than the sorbate can fix itself too then those cells are not hamstrung. If you begin with a very large and active starter rather than try to activate the yeast in a bath of sorbate then you are home and dry... the problem is that most folk simply pitch a pack of yeast and those cells are quickly overpowered.
 
Out of curiosity did you try out the malic acid or have a rough amount per gallon you would recommend? I primary use Simply Apple for my day to day drinking and would love to give the malic acid a chance. This also seems to be the most cost effective source of pure apple juice around here until fall.

I think it's about 3.2g per gallon of malic acid to drop the PH by 0.1. I suggest doing a small test on the side and figuring out what works for you. Then you can add the right amount to your must.
 
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