it still tastes bad

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togodoug

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I’ve brewed 5 different recipes and they all but one has the same kind of bitter, estrigent maybe, I don’ t now what, after taste.
I have the brewing temp to mid 60s and aging at about 70. It taste bad right after fermentation at bottling and aging does nothing to help.
It seemed contamination was most likely, but I really sanitize well, I think, and all 4 are the same and similar to another guy here who also sanitize well.
The only common denominators I can come up with is possibly water, although I used about two gallons of distilled water on one.
I used the same yeast in all, Muton and Fison Ale Yeast. I dry pitch it once the wart is below 80 degrees. I’ve addresses fermenting temp with a swamp cooler, aging temp with a medical supply chiller, water by getting distilled water, sanitizing by going nuts with sanitize, is it the yeast or am I missing something? Still sanitation, water, WHAT, WHAT, HELP!
By the way, its VERY cloudy too.

These are the stesp I use.
As best I can recount.
Sanitize every thing.
Get about 2 gals of bottled water to 165 degrees.
steep grains for 30 min.
Get to boil for 60 min adding hops along the way, right at the beginning, some at end and or middle depending on recipe
Afer 60 min, add some cold water, about a gallon and some ice to get it all to about 90 degrees or so.
Pour the wort into the fermenter and add more cold water up to 5 gals.
Put the fermenter in a cooler with ice water around it.
Once below 80 degrees stir with a bug paddle to arete the wort sprinkle in the dry yeast on the wort and close it up.
keep the fermenter in the cooler surrounded by water and rotate in a frozen water bottle in the cooler, not the wort, to keep it at about 65 degrees (my first two batches was fermenting at about 80 degrees and the taste in the end was no worse. I thought the problem was temp.)
Two to three weeks later bottle it. At bottling it taste the same as after 4 weeks in the bottle.

I use extract, no added sugar, recipe kits including English Pale Ale, Irish Red, IPA and ESB.
 
What are you sanitizing with?

Is it possible that the taste is just a beer taste? Maybe try a recipe with a different yeast?

When do you notice the taste? After primarying, after bottling, etc.? Does it go away or get worse with time?

Do other people taste it? I got paranoid after a couple bad batches and was tasting nonexistent off flavors.
 
Dome555 said:
What are you sanitizing with?

Is it possible that the taste is just a beer taste? Maybe try a recipe with a different yeast?

When do you notice the taste? After primarying, after bottling, etc.? Does it go away or get worse with time?

Do other people taste it? I got paranoid after a couple bad batches and was tasting nonexistent off flavors.
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At bottling it tastes bad, aging does nothing to help. Other notice it too. I use One-step sanatizer, whcih some say is not good, but others swear by it.
 
One-step made me throw out two batches. It might not hold up in a court of one-step's peers but I never had a problem, got convinced to try one-step by my LHBS guys, tossed two batches, switched back to star-san and haven't had a problem since.

After that many bad batches I'd toss any relatively porous (bucket) and/or cheap (tubing) materials and use PBW/oxi-clean/one-step to clean and star-san to sanitize the new stuff from the get go. The bucket might not be necessary but the price of a bucket is nothing compared to dumping another batch and wondering if there's an infection lingering in the old one or if it's an entirely separate issue.

Also, I'm sorry for your loss. Four batches is rough.
 
Dome555 said:
One-step made me throw out two batches. It might not hold up in a court of one-step's peers but I never had a problem, got convinced to try one-step by my LHBS guys, tossed two batches, switched back to star-san and haven't had a problem since.

After that many bad batches I'd toss any relatively porous (bucket) and/or cheap (tubing) materials and use PBW/oxi-clean/one-step to clean and star-san to sanitize the new stuff from the get go. The bucket might not be necessary but the price of a bucket is nothing compared to dumping another batch and wondering if there's an infection lingering in the old one or if it's an entirely separate issue.

Also, I'm sorry for your loss. Four batches is rough.
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I clean and all with water after use, then "sanatize" with Oe Step befre use. Do I not understand cleaning? Why do so many folks swear by One Step?
 
Kinda sounds like what I went through. I brewed 8 straight batches and they were all pretty good for a beginner. Then having heard about the importance of water, I switched from Denver Metro tap water to bottled spring water or filtered water that you can get refills at the grocery store. The next 3 batches turned out with a hot, strong alcohol tasted that would burn the tongue. I have no idea why since some people swear by that type of water, but as soon as I switched back to tap, everything went back to normal and the beer is lovely once again.
 
I can't say that I've heard many people swear by it except for the guys at my LHBS and I'm forced to entertain the idea that they just wanted to get rid of it as they had a ton, weren't carrying star-san, and I'm no regular there because they're not all that local for me. Cleaning is with something like oxi-clean or pbw to get the gunk off, even the very very tiny gunk. That is so that bacteria can't hide from the sanitizer in the aforementioned gunk. I still use one-step for cleaning and haven't had any issues, it works as well as oxi-clean.

Also, what I'd rather believe about my LHBS guys is that because they're wine makers one-step works fine for them. I'm imagining it may kill enough bacteria to prevent them from taking a strong hold in there and the higher alcohol content of the wines kills off the survivors, or at least helps prevent proliferation.
 
instead of distilled water, I would gather 5.5 gallons of tap water, boil it, let it rest/cool, add half a crushed campden tab and let it sit overnight before brew day.
I am not sure if distiled water is the way to go.

Also, adding ice to chill is not good--- because it is not sanitized water & you could pick up some nasties.
 
midfielder5 said:
instead of distilled water, I would gather 5.5 gallons of tap water, boil it, let it rest/cool, add half a crushed campden tab and let it sit overnight before brew day.
I am not sure if distiled water is the way to go.

Also, adding ice to chill is not good--- because it is not sanitized water & you could pick up some nasties.
Click to expand...

Unless I'm wrong, don't most people brew about 2.5 gals of wort and then add 2.5 of cold tap water to it later. If so, that last 2.5 gallons would be bacteria contaminated, right? If instead of adding ice like from a bag, what if I add cold bottled water to top it off, like 2.5 gallons? Or make the last 2.5 gallons botteled distilled water and use my mineral laden tap water for the boil??
 
My first 3 batches of beer were all bad and I tried using store bought water and my next batch was GREAT. My water here has so much chlorine and chloromine in it and it's easy to buy for 78 cents a gallon. You can also use campden tablets to help treat your tap water, but I've yet to try that.
 
I boil my top off water then sit it outside (covered) to cool. About 3 gallons then 3 gallons in my partial boil. Regular tap water
 
Water chemistry is often the cause of the tastes you describe. I would suggest using all RO filtered water for the entire batch, not just the amount that gets bolied. The extract has already been made using water with the appropriate chemistry, so using tap water (boiled or not) will add unintended minerals to the mix.

If this doesn't solve your problem, I would suggest trying another brand's kit and see if it makes a difference.
 
midfielder5 said:
your beer will be better if you get a large enough pot to do a full boil.
Click to expand...


In my case I have a pot plenty big enough but not enough fire power to bring 6.5~ gallons to a boil :( Time for a turkey fryer, maybe I'll get a wort chiller first. :mug:
 
I'd go with distilled water for an extract batch. It will be clean and you can tell if it is the cause of your problems. The minerals that they yeast need for healthy activity will be in the extract, so you don't have to have them in the water.

Also, we are so many LHBS's so eager to push 1-step?? Star san is such a great product! So easy to use and it can last a super long time, so it's very cheap to use as well. Frankly, I'd get rid of the 1-step.
 
togodoug said:
Afer 60 min, add some cold water, about a gallon and some ice to get it all to about 90 degrees or so.
Pour the wort into the fermenter and add more cold water up to 5 gals.
Put the fermenter in a cooler with ice water around it.
.
Click to expand...

Just curious if you are doing anything to sanitize the water/ice you are adding in to cool the wort? I have added both ice and water to cool wort, but I always boil the water first to ensure nothing nasty is getting through. Also be sure to sanitize whatever you are making the ice in.
 
mbosco said:
Just curious if you are doing anything to sanitize the water/ice you are adding in to cool the wort? I have added both ice and water to cool wort, but I always boil the water first to ensure nothing nasty is getting through. Also be sure to sanitize whatever you are making the ice in.
Click to expand...

I'm using bagged ice
 
togodoug said:
I'm using bagged ice
Click to expand...

Made with the tap water you're trying to avoid by buying the RO water? Or worse?

Like I said, the flavor description you give is related to water. I'd definitely use only 100% RO water. Not bagged ice or tap water. At all. If you must use ice (you don't have to, of course- put the ice in the water bath on the OUTside of the kettle), at least freeze the RO stuff and not use bagged ice.
 
Yooper said:
Made with the tap water you're trying to avoid by buying the RO water? Or worse?

Like I said, the flavor description you give is related to water. I'd definitely use only 100% RO water. Not bagged ice or tap water. At all. If you must use ice (you don't have to, of course- put the ice in the water bath on the OUTside of the kettle), at least freeze the RO stuff and not use bagged ice.
Click to expand...

thanks. The RO water and distilled water are sold in bottles. The tap water here is full of lime and salt and I assume clorine and basically tastes bad so I would not use that. The ice is suposedely made from RO water, the same as the bottled drinking water I use. My options are the local RO water, imported distilled water, imported bottled drinkng water some of which are recognisble brands. I've been going with the local RO water or imported distilled water.
 
you said it is 'bitter' and 'cloudy'. how are you pouring your beer? are you being careful to leave the yeast in the bottle? everything else sounds ok.
 
rweird said:
you said it is 'bitter' and 'cloudy'. how are you pouring your beer? are you being careful to leave the yeast in the bottle? everything else sounds ok.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's the problem as its the same if I just poor off a sip into a glass.
 
1) Don't add ice to cool your wort; you have a strong chance of adding bacteria. Instead use the ice to make an ice bath and you put your pot in it.

2) Don't use tap water, especially if you live in a city. Water quality varies a lot from city to city, but most contains too much chlorine. Chlorine can impart nasty flavors to your beer. So, use bottled water, ideally Reverse Osmosis, but distilled will work too. If you must use some tap water, use it for your boil because you boil off what shouldn't be there and use the bottled water to top off your fermenter.

3) Your yeast might be a problem- Munton's is really crappy stuff. I'd use a liquid if you can. Still, I think it's probably your water.

4) I only use 1-Step and plastic buckets. Never had a problem. Again, I say it's probably your water/ice.

Good luck!
 
tedclev said:
1) Don't add ice to cool your wort; you have a strong chance of adding bacteria. Instead use the ice to make an ice bath and you put your pot in it.

2) Don't use tap water, especially if you live in a city. Water quality varies a lot from city to city, but most contains too much chlorine. Chlorine can impart nasty flavors to your beer. So, use bottled water, ideally Reverse Osmosis, but distilled will work too. If you must use some tap water, use it for your boil because you boil off what shouldn't be there and use the bottled water to top off your fermenter.

3) Your yeast might be a problem- Munton's is really crappy stuff. I'd use a liquid if you can. Still, I think it's probably your water.

4) I only use 1-Step and plastic buckets. Never had a problem. Again, I say it's probably your water/ice.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

thanks. I know a guy who uses Muntion's with good results, so its just hard to know, but I've ordered Safile or whatever it is. I also wonder if the 5 oz pack is too little, but that same gys says no, others say you need like two packs
 
Yeah- the 5g pack is too small; you need to use two for a 5 gallon batch. As far as dry yeasts go, the Safale US-05 is the best choice out there for California Ale style yeast. The US-04 is more of an English style yeast, probably more comparable to Muntons. If you aren't brewing English style beers though, then the Muntons and US-04 are not going to be good choices; they don't attenuate all that well and add a lot more esters and sweetness that isn't appropriate in most American ales. Cheers!
 
tedclev said:
Yeah- the 5g pack is too small; you need to use two for a 5 gallon batch. As far as dry yeasts go, the Safale US-05 is the best choice out there for California Ale style yeast. The US-04 is more of an English style yeast, probably more comparable to Muntons. If you aren't brewing English style beers though, then the Muntons and US-04 are not going to be good choices; they don't attenuate all that well and add a lot more esters and sweetness that isn't appropriate in most American ales. Cheers!
Click to expand...

I've ordered the us-05 and intend to make an English ale. I'm confused; You seem to say, I think, Mutons is no good but Salale US-04 is good, but it is at the same time similar to Mutons? What am I missing?
Alos, if you are looking for a less sweet beer the us-05 is the yeast of choice, is that right?
 
The US-05 is an American ale yeast, appropriate for American ales. American ales are characterized by a cleaner finish; they're a bit drier (lower FG), and they don't contain the kind of sweet/fruity esters that English ales do. Us-04 is an English ale yeast. It will attenuate less, so the alcohol %age is a little lower, the body a little more full, the taste a little sweeter, and the aroma a little more estery and fruity.

To answer your question- yes, most brewers will agree that Muntons, while it will make beer, is not the best choice for making the best beer. US-04 is similar to Muntons in that you use it to make similar beers (e.g. English ales). The difference is that Safale US-04 from Fermentis is a much better choice and performs much better. It still is not as good as a liquid yeast, but it's probably the best dry yeast option you have. If you ever want to brew an American ale, the US-05 is really great (in my opinion, it's damn close to White Labs 001 American ale). If you ordered the US-05 for your English ale, don't worry. You are going to make a great beer, but it is going to be more American (drier, cleaner, not so sweet, slightly more alcohol, etc.) than English.
 
tedclev said:
The US-05 is an American ale yeast, appropriate for American ales. American ales are characterized by a cleaner finish; they're a bit drier (lower FG), and they don't contain the kind of sweet/fruity esters that English ales do. Us-04 is an English ale yeast. It will attenuate less, so the alcohol %age is a little lower, the body a little more full, the taste a little sweeter, and the aroma a little more estery and fruity.

To answer your question- yes, most brewers will agree that Muntons, while it will make beer, is not the best choice for making the best beer. US-04 is similar to Muntons in that you use it to make similar beers (e.g. English ales). The difference is that Safale US-04 from Fermentis is a much better choice and performs much better. It still is not as good as a liquid yeast, but it's probably the best dry yeast option you have. If you ever want to brew an American ale, the US-05 is really great (in my opinion, it's damn close to White Labs 001 American ale). If you ordered the US-05 for your English ale, don't worry. You are going to make a great beer, but it is going to be more American (drier, cleaner, not so sweet, slightly more alcohol, etc.) than English.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot. I'd say based on your information, the US-05 is not a mistake but rather a step in the right direction. I have now fermenting away a batch of what is supposed to be an Autum Amber, not really sure what that means, with some extra hops I threw in at the beginning and end. The US-05 seems to be working away. Thanks a lot.
 
I think you'll be pleased with the results. Just make sure you give the beer enough time on the yeast- two weeks should do it. Then bottle or keg it, and give it another three or four weeks and then drink it. If your process is sanitary, then you should have some great beer. Cheers!
 
I bottled the batch a week ago. Used a different yeast. It still has some of that same off flavor, not as strong as the last two batches.
BUT I tasted it as I was bottling, poured off a glass and drank it flat after an hour or so in the fridge. After a week in the bottle it taste worse, more of the sour taste. What is the problem???
 
First, let it sit for a few more weeks before you drink it; your beer is still to green and is not going to taste like it should and it will be cloudy. However, if after a few more weeks you are getting the same sour taste, then you are adding contamination at some stage in your process. I know you used a different yeast this time, but you didn't say if you did anything different when you brewed. Here's a checklist for you:
-Did you thoroughly clean AND sanitize your fermenter, airlock, and anything else that touches your wort.
-Is your fermenting bucket discolored on the inside or does it have an odor? If so, get a new bucket.
-Did you add ice or tap water to your wort (which can cause contamination)? In my earliest post on this thread I emphasized that yeast probably was not the problem- it is your water. So, did you use tap water in the boil kettle and bottled water to top off your fermenter and ice for an icebath to cool your wort? If not, you should have.

If you did all of the above, then I would say your tap water is a total mess and you should use nothing but bottled water and maybe get a new fermenting bucket.
 
tedclev said:
First, let it sit for a few more weeks before you drink it; your beer is still to green and is not going to taste like it should and it will be cloudy. However, if after a few more weeks you are getting the same sour taste, then you are adding contamination at some stage in your process. I know you used a different yeast this time, but you didn't say if you did anything different when you brewed. Here's a checklist for you:
-Did you thoroughly clean AND sanitize your fermenter, airlock, and anything else that touches your wort.
-Is your fermenting bucket discolored on the inside or does it have an odor? If so, get a new bucket.
-Did you add ice or tap water to your wort (which can cause contamination)? In my earliest post on this thread I emphasized that yeast probably was not the problem- it is your water. So, did you use tap water in the boil kettle and bottled water to top off your fermenter and ice for an icebath to cool your wort? If not, you should have.

I used bottled water for the boil, 3 gallons, and then finished with two or so gallons of bottled filtered RO water. All the water is locally bottled, so it startes as ground or sea water here on a small island. I don't know the lime or other mineral make up of the bottled water, I assume the RO water is mineral free. It all could be mineral free or it could be loaded with lime.
I'm fairly certain my sanitation is good, assuming one step is doing its job, I go over everything pretty well.
My bucket now has a slight stain as I've used Isidore instead of One step so it leaves a bit of a stain and has had a slight hop smell.
Any brand of bottled water you might suggest, or some mineral or other content to look for?
If you did all of the above, then I would say your tap water is a total mess and you should use nothing but bottled water and maybe get a new fermenting bucket.
Click to expand...
 
tedclev said:
First, let it sit for a few more weeks before you drink it; your beer is still to green and is not going to taste like it should and it will be cloudy. However, if after a few more weeks you are getting the same sour taste, then you are adding contamination at some stage in your process. I know you used a different yeast this time, but you didn't say if you did anything different when you brewed. Here's a checklist for you:
-Did you thoroughly clean AND sanitize your fermenter, airlock, and anything else that touches your wort.
-Is your fermenting bucket discolored on the inside or does it have an odor? If so, get a new bucket.
-Did you add ice or tap water to your wort (which can cause contamination)? In my earliest post on this thread I emphasized that yeast probably was not the problem- it is your water. So, did you use tap water in the boil kettle and bottled water to top off your fermenter and ice for an icebath to cool your wort? If not, you should have.

If you did all of the above, then I would say your tap water is a total mess and you should use nothing but bottled water and maybe get a new fermenting bucket.
Click to expand...

I did not add ice to the wort, I used an ice bath to chill.
 
Dude if it tastes worse after time you have a sanitation issue. Something in fermentation is not sanitized. It starts to show by bottling time and then gets worse with time. That is a bacteria problem IMHO. Clean and sanitize and sterilize all your stuff! Get help from someone with experience in your area if you need to. Sanitation isn't that hard. You are probably just missing seething simple.
 
ksbrain said:
Dude if it tastes worse after time you have a sanitation issue. Something in fermentation is not sanitized. It starts to show by bottling time and then gets worse with time. That is a bacteria problem IMHO. Clean and sanitize and sterilize all your stuff! Get help from someone with experience in your area if you need to. Sanitation isn't that hard. You are probably just missing seething simple.
Click to expand...

thoughts on One Step? That's what I've used. I am switching to iodophor
 
I don't trust one step, but maybe that's just me. Iodophor and starsan work too good to not use them.
 
okay like mentioned above i think it's a sanitation issue. you mention it was worse after being bottled. what is your cleaning process on your bottles?

personally, i will use soapy water and a bottle brush to clean the bottles inside and out, rinse, and then place in the dishwasher (no soap) on rinse and dry. let them dry completely then wrap the tops in saran wrap until bottling day.
 
edsrockin said:
okay like mentioned above i think it's a sanitation issue. you mention it was worse after being bottled. what is your cleaning process on your bottles?

personally, i will use soapy water and a bottle brush to clean the bottles inside and out, rinse, and then place in the dishwasher (no soap) on rinse and dry. let them dry completely then wrap the tops in saran wrap until bottling day.
Click to expand...

I fill /submurge bottlels in One Step solution and put caps in a bowl with the same
 
maybe it's the one-step like a bunch of others have stated? never used it cannot speak for/against it.

i like iodophor, but that's because i have used it and not had any problems. good luck in figuring it out.
 
It’s the water.
Thanks for all the advise and suggestions. I’d used locally filtered bottled water in the past, its sold as drinking water, we all drink it as tap water is brackish so thought nothing of it. Then I used it only in the boil and topped off with RO water, thinking maybe bacteria in the water not being boiled was the issue. That didn’t seem to help. Last batch was all imported European mountain water. Any bitterness now is due to me having over hopped to cover up the expected, yet non-existent, residual sourness. But I like IPAs so that’s all fine.
Thanks again for all the tips.
 

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