Coopers or other fermenter for the Boat...

G'day all, long time no post for me.

So my transparent food storage bucket worked "ok" for my first few test batches of beer, but the lid wasn't air or beertight and it just won't cut it on a moving boat. So I need a new fermenter and I ask the collective mind with a better idea of what I want now that I have 4 batches behind me.

I do want a 6 gal fermenter. Turns out 5 gal batches and easy kit and recipie usage is key. I thought 5 gals would be too much based on what I used to brew on premises, but it turns out those were 15 gal batches. 5gal with a gal of headspace is just right.

Here's my criterea in order:

1: The lowest maintenance fermenter possible. Water can be scarce, galley space is limited and hey, I'm lazy. +1 for the bucket or coopers fermenter I think.

2: It must be durable and resist spillage at all angles of heel that the boat may experience.

3: Must have a spigot for easy racking/bottling.

4: I would prefer to be able to watch my beer work... +1 for the BB

5: If there are features I'm missing, I want them!

My choices as best I can see are:
1: A translucent (barely) bucket from my LHS.
2: A better bottle.
3: A cooper's fermenter (which looks pretty sweet to my untrained eye)

What'll it be?

Brew On Board

better bottle....bar none best investment i have ever made. Get that with one of the orange plastic caps which fit OVER the mouth and not in like a stopper. The racking assembly work great but they are quite pricey...then again beer isn't a cheap hobby.

I have a Coopers, a Better Bottle and several other objects for fermenting. The BB is easier to clean than the Coopers and sounds like it would fit with what you want. I like the wide mouth top of the Coopers, but sometimes it is hard to get open and it has a few areas that don't clean easily. The BB with some PBW or Oxyclean is a breeze to clean. I'll skip the 15 gallon inductor tank as I assume that is more than you want on a boat.

I would go w/ the Better Bottle and orange cap myself.
JJ

I have the BB with racking adapted and a Cooper's fermenter. BB is easier to clean and the racking adapted is nice and easy to use. But the Cooper's is much larger than six gallons; if filled to the rim, it will probably hold 7.5 gallons total. When I decided to make a Blackberry Wheat last month, I chose the Cooper's so I could make a bigger batch (6.5 gallons).

I'd probably choose the BB if I had to make a choice, but you can't go wrong with either one.

scinerd3000 said:

better bottle....bar none best investment i have ever made. Get that with one of the orange plastic caps which fit OVER the mouth and not in like a stopper. The racking assembly work great but they are quite pricey...then again beer isn't a cheap hobby.

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My sentiments exactly. BB all the way.

Hey all you landlubbing better bottle users, I want you to go walk up to you better bottle full of 5 gallons of water, and push in the sides of it, wrap your arms around it and squeeze it really tight and watch it flex.

Then start rocking it back and forth while you sing "row row row your boat" and watch how the liquid starts to build up momentum inside the BB and feel how the bottle flexes while the fluid momentum takes over.

Then think about it being on a rocking boat in a strong sea, maybe with a bungy cord across the middle, or some other method of securing it.

Then read this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/better-bottle-failure-things-learned-97078/

As much as I love the better bottle for my home use, we are not talking about homes here we are talking about boats, where boats rock and slam up and down in rough waves....And everything on the boat whether stowed or not, does the same. And any liquid inside is going to be building up it's own momentum in the container.

Here's what BB mentioned in their email when Jason wrote them about his problem.

Every once in a blue moon a carboy develops a crack on the bottom. Nearly
all the time, it is because the user was rolling the carboy on its bottom
edge while it was full. The creates a tremendous amount of flexing in the
bottom panel.

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If brew on board is going to be trying to stow his fermenter in any way to keep it from rolling/sliding around below or above deck, it's going to build up so much liquid momentum and plastic flexation that more than likely any pressure point where the strapping crosses the flat plastic is going to become a weak spot on the bottle and during a major bit of boat movement in the opposite direction, like up and down on a wave trough, if going to result in a decapitated better bottle and precious beer all over the place.

Heck with enough constant liquid motion any point on the bb could become a flexation/weakness point and crack....Especially if there happens to be a weakpoint in the plastic anyway.

Brewonboard, if you insist on having a spigot for ease of use, then I think your best bet would be either a coopers pressure barrel or even just your plain ole Ale Pail with spigot.



If you can't find ones with spigot then just buy a bottling bucket spigot and mount it yourself (You might even want to add a dip tube like I show in my bottling tips thread.) And between spigot uses (while it is fermenting) wrap the outside of the spigot in some sanitized plastic bags with rubberbands, to keep and nasties from contaminating it.

The buckets have plenty of necessary headspace for 5-6 gallon batches, and the plastic is a little more rugged and has less flexation than the better bottles. And of course it's air tight.

I know that the idea of modding something else is appealing, but now that you've played around and seen what doesn't work, you can go with what we know works......And in your unique situation, I think it would work much better than the betterbottle where a lot of rocking and motion and flexation is going to occur.

I wouldn't risk my beer on a boat with the better bottles, no matter how awesome I think they are. They are just not flex proof enough for the high motion situations.

I would recommend these small barrels from usplastics.com. I'm not too sure where you're located, but if you can get your hands on them, they work really well. I've been using these or the earlier variant of them for a few years now.

Winpak® Tight Head Pail - US Plastic Corporation

I'd say the Coopers because you can get you hands in it to clean it. The BB will take more watter to clean because you will have to soak off the kraeusen crust.

Revvy said:

.....I want you to go walk up to you better bottle full of 5 gallons of water, and push in the sides of it, wrap your arms around it and squeeze it really tight and watch it flex.......

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I did just what you told me to and squirted Apfelwein all over the closet. When the SWMBO get home, she is going to be really pissed! I am going to tell her, "The Revvy made me do it"! :cross:

Honestly, I didn't give it enough thought, but I can see your point. You have to admit though, Better Bottles are great for us landlubbers.
Sorry Brew-on-Board, I withdraw my suggestion.

bull8042 said:

I did just what you told me to and squirted Apfelwein all over the closet. When the SWMBO get home, she is going to be really pissed! I am going to tell her, "The Revvy made me do it"! :cross:

Honestly, I didn't give it enough thought, but I can see your point. You have to admit though, Better Bottles are great for us landlubbers.
Sorry Brew-on-Board, I withdraw my suggestion.

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LOL, that's why a suggested using 5 gallons of WATER not anything precious like apfelwein or beer....But yeah you get the picture. I was cleaning my three gallon better bottle, I thought maybe with the square sides there's be less flexion...no, it's not that much better.

Yeah they are great in our homes but not in a rocking and rolling environment.

You know Revvy, this is a fine example of why I have so much respect for you. You have no problem admitting when I am wrong.

I have nothing to offer other than welcome back to BoB (The OP). I remember his original posts a while back.

Thanks everybody for the replies! A special thanks to revvy for addressing the specifics of my situation so directly.

So it sounds like the BB is out. If rocking the boat causes beer-failure, that won't work. I have a boat hottie onboard at all times and well.... the boat rocks.

So we're down to ale pale (or other pale) and coopers. I remember some people talking about the coopers being a really good fermenter. I've never seen one up close so I don't know exactly why people like them so much. Are they better for my application (or in general) than an ale pale?

BTW the reason I want a spigot is for bottling direct from the primary using low-krausen kits and recipes, but also so that the primary can serve as a bottling bucket if I rack to a secondary. Yes, I am starting to see the wisdom of this process, and adding a secondary allows me to have 2 batches going, which is good.

This leads me nicely to question 2. What to use for a secondary? BBs sound bad. Glass is certanly not ideal, but I could do it if I had to. What about just using another bucket for a secondary? Not elegant, but functional perhaps?

BrewOnBoard

PS Thanks for the welcome back. I'm currently in my last few weeks of school before my medical boards (freedom = brew time) and I have a tall bottle of home-brewed lemon-ginger beer in hand making me feel all warm and fuzzy....

I have been using a coopers for about 3 years now. I really wish they weren't so expensive or i would have several of them. They are much better than any pale i have used and hold more volume than the 6.5 gal ale pale.

As far as use on a boat, the ale pale's are just straight sided where as the coopers has a curved lip on the top before the lid begins. This may become a nice feature in rolling seas, not to mention the screw on lid of the coopers makes it virtually impossible for a lid to pop of due to impact.

Who said you need to secondary. Many of us opt for a long primary instead. Your going to be rocking you will never truly get clear beer anyway.

what about using something like a 1/4 barrel sankey keg. Pretty hard to hurt them and they are relatively easy to clean.

OMJ said:

what about using something like a 1/4 barrel sankey keg. Pretty hard to hurt them and they are relatively easy to clean.

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I have zero experience with these this, BUT it sounds like a brilliant solution. They are rugged as heck, lightproof, and you can even strap a couple in a closet or on deck, just like you see welding cylinders secured against a wall.

I second the US Plastic vessels if you can find on the size you need. But I think they are 5G, 10G and 15G. But they are food safe shipping containers. Pretty much built for what you're doing.

Just get a brewing pail and the large o-ring under the lid will seal it. It has a handle to carry it, and is practically indestructible.

Revvy said:

Who said you need to secondary. Many of us opt for a long primary instead. Your going to be rocking you will never truly get clear beer anyway.

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It's not so much for the clarifying, but rather so that I can have a cider, mead, big beer, etc mellowing in a secondary and not be tempted to rush it because I've run out of "table beer". Isn't there something sinful about leaving the beer too long on the yeast cake? Can you really just leave it for 3months or more?

BoB

OMJ said:

what about using something like a 1/4 barrel sankey keg. Pretty hard to hurt them and they are relatively easy to clean.

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Indestructible definitely. Cool to have a keg on board, oh yeah.... How do you clean those puppies anyway? Would there be an issue with 5 gal of beer sloshing around in an 8gal keg?

BoB

BrewOnBoard said:

It's not so much for the clarifying, but rather so that I can have a cider, mead, big beer, etc mellowing in a secondary and not be tempted to rush it because I've run out of "table beer". Isn't there something sinful about leaving the beer too long on the yeast cake? Can you really just leave it for 3months or more?

BoB

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You know BoB, I am almost certain that I read that someone left their beer on the cake for over 6 months without any indication of autolysis. HOWEVER, please let that "someone" chime in with first-hand experience before you take my word as the gospel. A couple of months would be no problem, but I can't say with absolute certainty that 3+ will be fine.

BrewOnBoard said:

Indestructible definitely. Cool to have a keg on board, oh yeah.... How do you clean those puppies anyway? Would there be an issue with 5 gal of beer sloshing around in an 8gal keg?

BoB

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As a primary there is no issue with it although I wouldnt suggest secondary or long term aging in it. To clean the ones I use I add some oxyclean water shake it up and soak a little while then rinse real well with a carboy wand. The just use a flash light to make sure its clean. If you just take the spear out a keg takes a #10.5 or #10 stopper.

Carboy Wand

I've got it! OMJ's suggestion of a pony keg sparked the idea! What about secondarying (you can make a verb out of anything) in a corny keg? They're stainless, indestructible, cheap if used, I know beer can be stored in them for months, they open up for easy cleaning, and if I want to get more gear I'm 1/2 way to force carbonating my ciders/beers. The space that I have is also more conducive to a tall skinny secondary anyway.

What do you think?

BTW, anyone every tried to use a corny for a primary? Space utilization wise that would be perfect for me. (put 'em next to the scuba tanks) I'll probably still get a bucket/coopers as my primary though so that I have that handy spigot for direct bottling and as a bottling bucket, but I thought I'd ask out of curiosity.

BrewOnBoard

Yah, I primary, secondary and serve out of Cornies now. They cost a little more up front (in the US) than the other options, but no flexing issues. I am not going back to plastic or glass anytime soon. Rather lengthy post I pasted into my sig. You may want to run four gallon batches during seasons of heavy seas. And for heaven sake's put a one way valve between your CO2 tank and your serving keg.

I will say cleaning a corny uses a fair amount of water. But if your process is good you could conceivably ferment in the first one, rack to secondary onto priming sugar and then rack under pressure to a third serving keg. If you got room for three cornies and US$100 for a spunding valve you will always have good beer on tap.

EDIT: And reuse the cake in your fermenter a few times between cleanings.

So here's what I'm a gunna' do:

Primary in Coopers fermenter. I like the security of the screw on lid, capacity for headspace (seems like I might want more to keep it from spilling out the blow off tube) and I can do kits in it straight to the bottle without transferring when I'm lazy.

Secondary in a used corny keg for those brews that need to mature longer. Also acts as "beer on hand" ready to bottle. Easy to store, bulletproof, can be turned into a force-carbing tool if I go down that road later. In any beer I transfer to the secondary, I'll use the traditional method of transfering it back to a bottling bucket w/ sugar. (I'm never bottling from a siphon again!) The coopers fermenter will double as the bottling bucket for those brews.

Now I just need to finish with school so I can hurry up and start brewing again!

Next batch will be brewed on the boat (instead of a friend's kitchen)
BrewOnBoard