electric brewing and temp controls

hey all,

I'm getting ready to build an electric rig. I know nothing about electricity, or temp controllers. Can someone give me a tutorial on how these gadgets work?



http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

Wow. Dude that's a huge tutorial you're asking for. I suggest searching posts with "PID" or "SSR" first.

Cliffnotes?

Yeah... I have some threads on E-HERMS building and the use of PIDs and SSRs.

But yah, that is A LOT of information you are looking for, Id start with the search function.

If you're not totally set on the auber PIDs, here's a more interactive option:
http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Example_System_1

PID has an input and an output.

The PID watches the input (i.e., temperature sensor). If that input drops below a specified temperature (setpoint), the PID turns the output on. When the input exceeds the the setpoint, the output turns off. That is about it. Some PIDs have other modes (i.e., a "manual" mode that ignores the input and just pulses the output at a user-defined duty cycle).

Look up the definition of PID on wiki for much more detail than you need.

Note that the output can only drive small current. So, to switch large loads (like an electrical heating element), you need a relay. Mechanical relays aren't very good for constant switching, so solid state relays (SSR) jump in to help.

By the time you purchase all the PID's you'll have more money invested vs a single BCS 460 contoller unit besides having the ability to up and down load for future repeatable brewing sessions. When I sold my last brewing system that was the last time i'll own PID's, this is my thinking from past PID usage.
Pick which system makes you happy.

BrewBeemer said:

By the time you purchase all the PID's you have more money invested vs a single BCS 460 contoller unit besides having the ability to up and down load for future repeatable brewing sessions. When I sold my last brewing system that was the last time i'll own PID's, this is my thinking from past PID usage.
Pick which system makes you happy.

Click to expand...

I'd prefer to brew without a computer. To each his own.

The electric system I built only needs one PID and one SSR so it cuts down on the costs a bit.

BrewBeemer said:

By the time you purchase all the PID's you have more money invested vs a single BCS 460 contoller unit besides having the ability to up and down load for future repeatable brewing sessions. When I sold my last brewing system that was the last time i'll own PID's, this is my thinking from past PID usage.
Pick which system makes you happy.

Click to expand...

I like that controller. I can see one in my future as I convert my brewery to electric. Thanks for the tip.

Fingers said:

I like that controller. I can see one in my future as I convert my brewery to electric. Thanks for the tip.

Click to expand...

Congrats, use an open mind then decide what's needed as well what you can afford and desire. Don't limit yourself ending up with a system needing another future upgrade.

The BCS 460 is a very simple system without you being a computer high tech person to operate plus has a great support system. Only those that do not know this system will knock a computer controlled up and down loaded system like the BCS 460 unit. I'm by far not a computer wise person, proof that's it's an easy and accuracte system to use and operate. Opinions are easy to say, without knowing with hands on with a 460 unit sorry I don't buy some replies without those that have not had a direct hands on with this unit. JMO with what I picked for my brewing control system not wanting to be super high tech and over my computer ability vs only staying at being a basic caveman with a 1920's brewing style and operation.
Glad to see you've looked into a BCS 460 system. A full manual system is great if that's your thing as well propane or a wood fire heating system, pick what makes you happy. I like to down load and repeat a good brew, the BCS 460 allows this. A happy BCS 460 owner.

With Adam that built the 460 with the help of his tech designers you'll have plenty of support if needed. Quick answers as well Adams a HBT member and a prince of a person. Build a simple high tech electric system not a can of worms the first time out with many overpriced useless items. I must admit I will pay $140 for a stainless level control unit on my MLT to maintain the level. Save smart on some items then spend extra on other needed or must have items. I want the best system for the cost I can afford for my brewing ability and needs. Electrically controlled by the BCS 460 works great for me. With 11KW heating and 5.5KW maintaining temps i'm happy.
Best of luck with your build, well collected ideas and designs from many others on this forum then build what you want for your own special system built right the first time.
Redesign and correct on paper not on your brewery system, it's way cheaper this way, ask my wife.

Ok i'll buck popular opinion, Installl two elements, one properly sized to mantain a nice boil depending on batch size, and the secondary element to reach a boil in a reasonable amount of time. Switch on / switch off. Both on to reach boil, one on to maintain a nice boil. Too simple??

wilserbrewer said:

Ok i'll buck popular opinion, Installl two elements, one properly sized to mantain a nice boil depending on batch size, and the secondary element to reach a boil in a reasonable amount of time. Switch on / switch off. Both on to reach boil, one on to maintain a nice boil. Too simple??

Click to expand...

With that system you're limited to just the one batch size and if the boil element isn't optimal you'll wind up scorching the wort. This controller not only will supply optimum heat, but it can control pumps, display mash temperature, HLT temperature, and boil temperature. You can fill the HLT and start the system remotely as soon as you get up in the morning. You can have your shower, some breakfast and coffee, and when the HLT is up to temperature you go and start your brew.

Not only for brewing, but I'd like a unit like that to monitor my sewage, water, and heat pumps in the house. When I'm not brewing it will be my alarm system. I'm a bit of a gadget junkie.

conpewter said:

The electric system I built only needs one PID and one SSR so it cuts down on the costs a bit.

Click to expand...

But not very automated or able to up or down load or alter into your main computer plus allowing for changes in the next brew session or alterations as needed plus the ability to exactly repeat from a past liked brewing process result. There are trade offs, I chose simple without sticking with 1920 brewing processes or over the top in computer high tech programing.

Hey beemer, each brewer decides how much automation they want. No wrong answers here. That doesn't make some decisions antiquated... folks just want a more hands-on session.

Growing into brewing in little steps like 3 going on the 4th build (that was me and stupid) or grow from one step into brewing into a nice automated system skipping the extra wasted money, steps and time with soon needed upgrades. My trip cost me 14 years hence not that bad in dollars over time.
Just a heads up to plan out for the future needs instead of building over and over again unless extra money is pouring out of your wallet or butt.

Money often comes out of my butt... :rockin:

Ya can't say that now for those two airheads that overshot their landing by 150 miles recently, saw on the news their licenses were suspended. I bet that doesn't look too good on their past record looking for another job unless crop dusting was it?

BrewBeemer said:

Ya can't say that now for those two airheads that overshot their landing by 150 miles recently, saw on the news their licenses were suspended. I bet that doesn't look too good on their past record looking for another job unless crop dusting was it?

Click to expand...

They will never fly again probably... but they were idiots. Idiots get what is coming to them, they are a disgrace to what used to be a proud profession.

On the other end of the automation spectrum, there's always the option of simple on/off switches for elements, with a potentiometer to control output to the boil element(s).

My 55gallon drum system being built is similar to this. The boil kettle has 2 5500W elements with an on/off swtich with a potentiometer to regulate the level of power. When heating up I will have it at full output. When the boil starts, I can put the potentiometer to whatever number I want for the kind of boil I want. This can be repeated and have the same boil intensity each session, which is important for me in nailing OG. The HLT is the same as the boil kettle, but with a temp controlled PID instead of the potentiometer. In this instance I like to be able to input a temp and step away. The mash tun has a 1000W drum belt heater controlled by a PID to maintain temp during the mash. So I guess you could say I have a combination manual/auto system. Point is you can get away with a pretty simple electric setup in some cases.

BrewBeemer said:

But not very automated or able to up or down load or alter into your main computer plus allowing for changes in the next brew session or alterations as needed plus the ability to exactly repeat from a past liked brewing process result. There are trade offs, I chose simple without sticking with 1920 brewing processes or over the top in computer high tech programing.

Click to expand...

Automated enough for me, set and forget HLT, after the mash I can set and forget the boil, gives me plenty of time to get additions ready or grain crushed. I don't really need a computer in my brew room, I work with them all day, no thanks. I have a log book to exactly replicate any brew that I like, but I always make tweaks anyway.

Brew how you like, don't make fun of someone else's rig, I think that's a rule around here or something

Another option is an immersion heater with a thermostatic temperature control built in. Picked this one up really cheap on ebay a while back, but just got it installed last night. It'll be used for my HLT, but it brought 8 gallons from 58 degrees to boiling is just over an hour. Not too bad for a 3000W unit.

Pangea said:

On the other end of the automation spectrum, there's always the option of simple on/off switches for elements, with a potentiometer to control output to the boil element(s).

Click to expand...

I'm looking for a simple system with a PID/SSR controlling the HLT. But for the BK it seems like a potentiometer would work well. But I can't find a circuit diagram showing a potentiometer controlling on heating element and the PID/SSR on the other element. (This is a gravity system, so no pumps.)

Been searching but can't find much on potentiometers except for what Pangea wrote.

KEG99 said:

I'm looking for a simple system with a PID/SSR controlling the HLT. But for the BK it seems like a potentiometer would work well. But I can't find a circuit diagram showing a potentiometer controlling on heating element and the PID/SSR on the other element. (This is a gravity system, so no pumps.)

Been searching but can't find much on potentiometers except for what Pangea wrote.

Click to expand...

A pot will not work... too much power, it would burn up unless it was an autotransformer (i.e., Variac).

What you should search for is a simple 555 timer ckt for pulse width modulating the power. You'll still need an solid state relay ( SSR). Walker has posted some info on this somewhere. It still allows you to use a pot, but the pot controls the duty cycle of the PWM output, and the average power is controlled likewise.

Search PWM circuit, 555 timer, etc.

passedpawn said:

A pot will not work... too much power, it would burn up unless it was an autotransformer (i.e., Variac).

What you should search for is a simple 555 timer ckt for pulse width modulating the power. You'll still need an solid state relay ( SSR). Walker has posted some info on this somewhere. It still allows you to use a pot, but the pot controls the duty cycle of the PWM output, and the average power is controlled likewise.

Search PWM circuit, 555 timer, etc.

Click to expand...

http://www.fyurl.com/rr.php?c=2&sit...://www.dprg.org/tutorials/2005-11a/index.html

This site shows a simple 555 based circuit. It explains clearly how they work and how to adjust the frequency. For our needs we generally need somewhere around 1hz or less.

This thread is useful as well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/pwm-show-us-how-221301/

Thanks. No wonder my searches for "potentiometer" came up blank. I'll study carefully.

One other thought... Can I hook two temp probes into one PID? If not, I guess I would need two PID's, each with their own temp probe? (That's if I don't go the 555 PWM route.)