Nanobrewery at the farmers market?

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dougdecinces

dougdecinces

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This is something that won't happen for several years, but I have had this idea spinning in my head for some time now and I want to figure out whether:

a) This is legal
b) This is practical

As soon as we can afford to, my wife and I plan on buying some land in the country. I want to grow fruits and vegetables and sell them at farmer's markets. I notice the Bloomington, Indiana farmers market has a local winery that sells their wares, which gave me the idea of trying to sell beer there too.

My plan would be to brew on a nano-scale and every week bring 2-3 different beers in corny kegs (which I would rotate weekly) and sell growlers. I could also sell the occasional super-fancy beer (sours, barley-wines, etc.), which I would sell in bombers. If for some reason they don't allow growlers, I would bottle my beers in Grolsch bottles and charge a bottle deposit. I would also want to sell kegs to local restaurants, but I don't want to focus on that now.

I checked Indiana state brewing laws and couldn't find anything about farmers markets. I suppose I can contact the gummint, but I was hoping I could get an answer here first. I also want it to be known that I haven't really researched the financial aspect of this, so don't bite my head off if something like this is not financially sound.

I also wanted to know how interested you fellow homebrewers would be in getting growlers filled at a farmers market. I personally would look forward to being able to go every week and purchase beer. I'm hoping others feel the same. I've also considered opening the brewery to the public, but that is entirely dependent on how far out in the country I live. I would also be interested to hear what people would think about going to a brewery that is a bit off the beaten path, so long, of course, as the product and ambiance are quality.
 
Beer laws vary state to state and are almost always different from winery laws. My guess would be that if your States laws allow you to sell directly to the consumer (like in some States breweries can sell at the brewery) then you could. I would contact someone in your local or state government.
 
My first thought would be profitability when you consider the licensing involved. Odds are, the winery you speak of isn't only selling at the farmer's market. That would be the first thing I would look into. If the farmer's market is going to be your only outlet, profit margin would be my concern.
 
I read a homebrewing blog http://backyardbrewer.blogspot.com/2011/06/beer-for-food-bartering.html the guy was going to a farmers market with a cooler of bottled homebrew and trading homebrew for fruits/veggies/flowers. Seemed kinda cool. I know it's not quite what you are talking about. As far as selling alcohol at a farmers market I think it depends on the market as well. My local FM won't allow sales of alcohol.
 
There was a local brewery (Captured by Porches) that used to sell bottles/growlers/jars at my neighborhood farmer's market. For the bottles, they used swing-tops with a deposit as well. I haven't seen them lately, but it's been done before.
 
First off, you need to become a BREWER, by obtaining a license to produce and sell your beer legally. You cannot sell or trade homebrewed beer legally, no matter if some other guy *thinks* he can do it at a farmers market.

There is no ambiguity in the law about this.

However, once you obtain the proper license, you could package and sell your beer just as the winery does.

Be prepared to fill out a LOT of forms, and it will probably cost more than you think to get the proper license. And there are requirements for labeling, and more than likely a requirement to produce the beer on a commercial property, not in the home...

The simple answer is that it's illegal to sell your beer, or trade it, at a farmers market. I think probrewer.com would be the next logical step to figure out what license to get in your state, and how best to obtain it.
 
Move to France. Due to the entire history of the wine industry there are very few limitations on going commercial. In fact any homebrewer can get a license for like 1 year to even just try it. Of course the complaint is that there's no quality control and every Tom Dick and Harry tries selling their beer, and much of it is crappy.

Basic Brewing; October 6, 2011 - Brewing French
James and Andy enjoy good conversation, weather, and beer with Phillip Lamb, who shares information on French brewing.

Click to listen
Click to expand...

Otherwise in America, if it were as easy as folks think, you'd actually see it in every farmer's market. And like Az said, even bartering with homebrew is illegal.
 
In most states (like 38 of the 50, check your state laws), you need to actually brew on premisis to circumvent the three tier system, so you'd probably have to have your actual brewery at the farmer's market in order to retail beer there. Otherwise, you'd have to sell your beer to a wholesaler in order to retail it. Even then, you have to have a commerical location in most states. There's only like 1-2 states where you can license your home as a legal brewery location, and even of those are through loopholes, not by the intent of the law.

Once you have that all sorted out, the brew on premisis licence is typically way cheaper than a full commercial brewing license. Here in FL, the brew on premisis license is about $3000-3500, though unfortunately, FL outlaws growlers over 32oz and even at that size requires retail packaging, including a proper seal and only selling beers in growlers with that beer's name on it. All this makes it very cost-prohibitive in FL. At my last check, there were only 5 places in the whole state even fooling with retail growler sales, not including brewery tasting rooms.
 
Homercidal said:
First off, you need to become a BREWER, by obtaining a license to produce and sell your beer legally. You cannot sell or trade homebrewed beer legally, no matter if some other guy *thinks* he can do it at a farmers market.

There is no ambiguity in the law about this.

If we can't trade homebrewed beer legally why is there a section on this forum to trade homebrewed beer? Looking at the law I don't see where there is an exception made for homebrew....but not for other things.
Click to expand...
 
I like the idea and would give me a good reason to join my girlfriend when she wakes up super early to go to the farmers market. Like it has been mentioned before the variable costs can be covered but the fixed cost of the license may be what makes it financially unfeasible. But if you can break even, don't need the money and enjoy the work year after year then go for it.
 
Phunhog said:
Homercidal said:
First off, you need to become a BREWER, by obtaining a license to produce and sell your beer legally. You cannot sell or trade homebrewed beer legally, no matter if some other guy *thinks* he can do it at a farmers market.

There is no ambiguity in the law about this.

If we can't trade homebrewed beer legally why is there a section on this forum to trade homebrewed beer? Looking at the law I don't see where there is an exception made for homebrew....but not for other things.
Click to expand...

I don't claim that trading homebrew is legal, even through this site. That's why I don't "trade". I gift.

Once in a while I am pleasantly surprised to find the recipient sends me some of their homebrew. I think the worst I've done was win or lose a bet.
Click to expand...
 
Phunhog said:
If we can't trade homebrewed beer legally why is there a section on this forum to trade homebrewed beer? Looking at the law I don't see where there is an exception made for homebrew....but not for other things.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the permission of a website to do something is not the standard for legality.

There's a difference between what you're talking about and what's being talked about in this thread. Bartering is trading but it's trading goods or services as compensation for another good or service. The farmer selling corn at the market seeks compensation for growing corn. Bartered goods or services are taxable compensation (See TEFRA). If it's taxable compensation, it is surely a sale even though there is no medium for exchange. That runs afoul the laws requiring licenses to sell beer.
 
ReverseApacheMaster said:
I'm pretty sure the permission of a website to do something is not the standard for legality.

There's a difference between what you're talking about and what's being talked about in this thread. Bartering is trading but it's trading goods or services as compensation for another good or service. The farmer selling corn at the market seeks compensation for growing corn. Bartered goods or services are taxable compensation (See TEFRA). If it's taxable compensation, it is surely a sale even though there is no medium for exchange. That runs afoul the laws requiring licenses to sell beer.
Click to expand...

I actually thought that in the past mods put the kibosh on any trading because it was illegal. And any formal exchanges were limited to payinig members originally.

I think there's a grey area, exchanges and tastings for evaluation/education purposes are legal in many states through homebrewclubs. So TX may see them on here being ok if this is considered a club....

I don't know.
 
You need a brewer's license from fed govt (TTB) then your state license that lets you sell directly to customers. Some states do not allow direct sales, so you need to check it out more.
good luck.
 
ReverseApacheMaster said:
I'm pretty sure the permission of a website to do something is not the standard for legality.

There's a difference between what you're talking about and what's being talked about in this thread. Bartering is trading but it's trading goods or services as compensation for another good or service. The farmer selling corn at the market seeks compensation for growing corn. Bartered goods or services are taxable compensation (See TEFRA). If it's taxable compensation, it is surely a sale even though there is no medium for exchange. That runs afoul the laws requiring licenses to sell beer.
Click to expand...

I think I understand what you mean. Doesn't it seem awfully ridiculous that legally I can trade/barter bottles of homebrew with my neighbor, but if instead he wanted to trade/barter eggs or veggies for homebrew that would be illegal? I don't see how one could be legal(homebrew) and the other one (veggies) illegal?
 
Phunhog said:
I think I understand what you mean. Doesn't it seem awfully ridiculous that legally I can trade/barter bottles of homebrew with my neighbor, but if instead he wanted to trade/barter eggs or veggies for homebrew that would be illegal? I don't see how one could be legal(homebrew) and the other one (veggies) illegal?
Click to expand...

But you can't legally do that. As has been mentioned, what you can legally do is gift each other.
 
Homercidal said:
Once in a while I am pleasantly surprised to find the recipient sends me some of their homebrew. I think the worst I've done was win or lose a bet.
Click to expand...

Glad you liked my stuff! :D

Phunhog said:
I think I understand what you mean. Doesn't it seem awfully ridiculous that legally I can trade/barter bottles of homebrew with my neighbor, but if instead he wanted to trade/barter eggs or veggies for homebrew that would be illegal? I don't see how one could be legal(homebrew) and the other one (veggies) illegal?
Click to expand...

No one's bartering in a homebrew swap.

What's your next scenario gonna be? If you can't barter homebrew for produce NHC/AHA is illegal because i'm trading homebrew for brewing medals?

Denny said:
But you can't legally do that. As has been mentioned, what you can legally do is gift each other.
Click to expand...

This. Though, some states do stipulate that homebrew must be consumed on premises.
 
As for a brewery off the beaten path, I once saw a series called "dream house" where a couple started a winery. They built a very nice space which acted as a venue for people to rent out for weddings, parties, and any sort of event. They also held wine tasting. It was definetly off the beaten path. Obviously you aren't going to built a million dollar house like they did, but I think a Nano could do alright if you were able to incorporate some events, or beer tastings, or something similar.
 
AZ_IPA said:
What's your next scenario gonna be? If you can't barter homebrew for produce NHC/AHA is illegal because i'm trading homebrew for brewing medals?
Click to expand...

There were some groups in WI recently that were trying to make an argument like this to keep the home brew laws from being re-written to allow swapping and competitions.
 
Supurb said:
As for a brewery off the beaten path, I once saw a series called "dream house" where a couple started a winery. They built a very nice space which acted as a venue for people to rent out for weddings, parties, and any sort of event. They also held wine tasting. It was definetly off the beaten path. Obviously you aren't going to built a million dollar house like they did, but I think a Nano could do alright if you were able to incorporate some events, or beer tastings, or something similar.
Click to expand...

Speaking of, I was at a place like this over the weekend. It's not a million dollar home, but its a house where a guy basically runs his brewery out of his garage. It's a place up northwest of Eau Claire calles Dave's Brew Farm. It's a really fun time.
 
Phunhog said:
I think I understand what you mean. Doesn't it seem awfully ridiculous that legally I can trade/barter bottles of homebrew with my neighbor, but if instead he wanted to trade/barter eggs or veggies for homebrew that would be illegal? I don't see how one could be legal(homebrew) and the other one (veggies) illegal?
Click to expand...

Neither is legal. Any bartering is treated as compensation, regardless of who the parties are.

I'm not taking a position on an informal swap or trade of homebrew. I'm not a tax adviser or sufficiently knowledgeable of tax law to say if there is a difference. It may well be prohibited.

Personally I think the taxability of bartering is more rigid than it should be but I can see situations where it makes sense. If businesses could barter away their services or goods they could just make in-kind services to everybody and it becomes a tax shelter. I think that's clearly different than two people trading some minor car repair for babysitting. However, we got bartering included in the tax code because some jerk was using it to avoid paying taxes.
 
It seems that to barter in the eyes of the IRS at least one side needs to be a business or professional. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187904,00.html
If I wash your car and you mow my lawn that is a "trade" unless one or both of us are in business that deals with those activities. So it would appear that two homebrewers trading homebrew would be allowable, at least under IRS guidelines. It would also seem to make sense that you could trade homebrew for other things as long as it wasn't considered a bartering transaction. It would seem though that trading at a farmer's market would not satisfy this requirement.
 
I think many wineries at the farmers market leverage the agricultural side, they are growing the raw materials to make the wine.... the laws in this country and states are an embarrassment to be honest. Way too much control over the citizens.
 

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