American "Pint" vs European PINT!

Thats comparing apples to oranges. Having a fill line on beer glasses is easy. We aren't talking about liquor pouring.

I don't buy the slippery slope argument: "oh my gosh where will it all end? govermints out of mah bar!"

This isn't going to change everything in the bar, just truth in advertising concerning a pint.

springer said:

bars don't gouge on booze either they pay a hell of a lot more for beer or booze than we do.

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I wouldn't call it gouging, but the average bar really isn't paying that much. I worked for a restaurant that now has beer, I think a keg of Miller costs them like 60-65 bucks. They sell 12 oz's for 4 bucks. Thats what, 165 beers. So they make $660 per keg. A $600 profit!

Alcohol is almost always the highest margin product in any restaurant. The rest of the operations normally have profits margins of 2-3%.

Lets say your local bar pours an american pint where 15% of the beer is missing due to headspace. Every 6.66 beers you drink you will have been missing 1 entire beer.

So technically.....you order 7 beers, and you've really only drank 6 beers. But you still pay for that 7.

Each keg that is supposed to serve 120 pints actually ends up serving 145.


WHY IS NO ONE ELSE AS ANGRY AS I AM!?!?!?!

Lunarpancake said:

Lets say your local bar pours an american pint where 15% of the beer is missing due to headspace. Every 6.66 beers you drink you will have been missing 1 entire beer.

So technically.....you order 7 beers, and you've really only drank 6 beers. But you still pay for that 7.

Each keg that is supposed to serve 165 pints actually ends up serving 190.


WHY IS NO ONE ELSE AS ANGRY AS I AM!?!?!?!

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You know what you are getting when you buy a beer, you are an adult, the bar owner is an adult, you live in a free country. You can do business or not. Nothing to be mad about.

I disagree: if someone is flat out false advertising and cheating me out of an extra 5-6 bucks then I have reason to be mad. Or punch the owner.

remilard said:

You know what you are getting when you buy a beer, you are an adult, the bar owner is an adult, you live in a free country. You can do business or not. Nothing to be mad about.

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Actually...I would wager that MOST bar-going americans do NOT know that they are being ripped off by being poured about 15% less than they should be.


YOU can go to the bar and take it in the rear.......ill go and request a FULL PINT, or I wont go.

Maybe we should stand up and get WHAT WE PAID FOR ...rather then bending over and letting the bar owner rape us of our rights in our free country.


You sir are a push over...and a sissy if you enjoy going to bars and getting raped.

I mean, really: people get up in arms about raising taxes on beer but shouldn't worry about getting less poured than paid for at a bar?

MeatyPortion said:

I mean, really: people get up in arms about raising taxes on beer but shouldn't worry about getting less poured than paid for at a bar?

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Seriously.....what is happening is nothing short of robbery. Or American lazyness.

If we were being ripped off at the gas pump by being short-pumped people would be freakin' FURIOUS.

Oh, so insulting people is the way to go?

How is it false advertising? At no bar that I go to does it say 'beer $4.50 per pint' (or whatever). It lists the price for a beer and that's it. That may be misleading, but it's not 'flat out false advertising.'

Also, I think you need to chill the hell out with this rape stuff.

I'm saying it's false advertising if it says "per pint", otherwise it's just a beer.

Sigafoos said:

Oh, so insulting people is the way to go?

How is it false advertising? At no bar that I go to does it say 'beer $4.50 per pint' (or whatever). It lists the price for a beer and that's it. That may be misleading, but it's not 'flat out false advertising.'

Also, I think you need to chill the hell out with this rape stuff.

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My big argument is that why is this happening in the first place? The bar makes enough money on the beer already, why squeeze that extra bit out of the consumer? Its unnecessary and its bad business practices. Sooner or later people really will get angry about it.

I don't understand why Europe can have pint glasses with simple pint markings on them and we can not. Is it really that expensive or difficult to slowly changes your bars glassware? I would not think so.

For those of us that frequent bars and request Pints, if you go once a week to a bar and drink 5 beers you will have been short poured 37 beers each year. Thats $259.00 a year if you pay $7.00 a pint. People change car insurance companies for less savings then that. I would wager that requesting a full pour is easier than changing car insurance companies.

The key is getting businesses to do it voluntarily, and think it's their clever idea or marketing ploy. If a few market leaders pick up honest pint glasses,eventually everybody will, or they'll lose market share.

Edcculus said:

Thats comparing apples to oranges. Having a fill line on beer glasses is easy. We aren't talking about liquor pouring.

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I don't think so as you are regulating the amount a beer pour should be so why wouldn't they just tack on and a drink is one fluid once. Now people are pushing that the gov should be involved in the pour of a beer ?If you feel they are not pouring the correct amount then don't go there. I believe they should just drop the pint name and be done with it.

cford1 said:

I wouldn't call it gouging, but the average bar really isn't paying that much. I worked for a restaurant that now has beer, I think a keg of Miller costs them like 60-65 bucks. They sell 12 oz's for 4 bucks. Thats what, 165 beers. So they make $660 per keg. A $600 profit!

Alcohol is almost always the highest margin product in any restaurant. The rest of the operations normally have profits margins of 2-3%.

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$600 profit? If that we true no bar would go out .Have you ever see the insurance premium just for a bars liquor license?And license is 2 to 4 thousand dollars in NY . So there is no payroll is there ,no unemployment or SS disability ins that come out of "profit"? And every beer they sell is taxed no way around it you buy X amount of beer you pay X amount of tax on it to the state . If you think a keg costs 60 -65 bucks my friend will buy 100 of them for her place. The only time she makes a real profit is when the offer a buy 2 get 1 free type of deal.


While yes the bar takes in a larger profit than the food because it has to. Every one thinks its pure profit over what it cost's to buy but when the real cost of running a bar/restaurant is put in its not that much. Ever wonder why a lot of them fail within 3 years?

I would love to see some sort of standardization in serving beer in the US. I would like to see it mandated that beer (at least) is given a measurement next to the listed price. The bar must serve at least that measurement in liquid. And there must be a way that consumers can verify they're getting what they ordered, such as markings on the glass.

In a perfect world, all US pint glasses would be over 16oz in size but have a "fill to" line for the liquid level. So you fill so that the bottom of the head is at the line, and the remaining space in the glass is used for the head.

Lunarpancake said:

My big argument is that why is this happening in the first place? The bar makes enough money on the beer already, why squeeze that extra bit out of the consumer? Its unnecessary and its bad business practices. Sooner or later people really will get angry about it.

I don't understand why Europe can have pint glasses with simple pint markings on them and we can not. Is it really that expensive or difficult to slowly changes your bars glassware? I would not think so.

For those of us that frequent bars and request Pints, if you go once a week to a bar and drink 5 beers you will have been short poured 37 beers each year. Thats $259.00 a year if you pay $7.00 a pint. People change car insurance companies for less savings then that. I would wager that requesting a full pour is easier than changing car insurance companies.

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I don't believe that shorting people is the motivation for using shaker glass. I think that price and availability is the motivation. They are ubiquitous and most people consider them to be the beer glass in this country.

Look around HBT for photos of home brewed beers in a glass. 90% are in a shaker glass. Do you think that people keep these glasses at home to short themselves? Why don't these unscrupulous home brewers acquire proper glass ware?

I don't understand why Europe can have pint glasses with simple pint markings on them and we can not.

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There's no reason you can't. Have you asked for it from your local bar owner? Do you send back low shaker glasses for a top up?

Lets be honest though, most bars aren't catering to us. We're the kind of beer drinkers that make up a very small percentage of the typical bar's customer. I'd be happy to have a decent beer on tap, be served a glass with a bottle, or get a glass that isn't frozen. Maybe in the future a larger percentage of the country will appreciate beer as a food more and that will change. I'd pick my battles now.

Now if you feel like the solution to being robbed of 1 beer of every 7 is a government regulation program, I would contend (philosophical stances on the purpose of government aside) that you're going to lose that 1 beer in 7 either way. If the bar isn't shorting it to you in the glass, the government is going to be taxing you that 1/7 beer to pay for the regulation committee, inspectors, etc to implement the burea of the real pint.

Ymmv, but I'd say pick your battles and take any issues you have with the pour to the proprietor. If you don't like his response, don''t give him your business.

I think that price and availability is the motivation.

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I think durability too. I don't know if everyone elses are the same but my nonic glasses are pretty fragile compared to my shakers.

To that end, be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. http://boingboing.net/2009/09/30/britain-seeks-ban-on.html "Britain seeks ban on glass pint-glasses" It might sound like a great idea to try to use government to get the bar glasses you want at every bar, but a few years later you might find yourself drinking from a sippy cup with a crazy straw.

Places I go to even some of the chain places have it Bottled beer X dollars . draft small X$ and large X$ . Bet you dollars to donuts if they made a reg as to pints all places would just go large and small on drafts. The friend I have only uses the the 16 once pint glass for all draft beer. And just say's draft price is $ .

Soybomb said:

There's no reason you can't. Have you asked for it from your local bar owner? Do you send back low shaker glasses for a top up?

Lets be honest though, most bars aren't catering to us. We're the kind of beer drinkers that make up a very small percentage of the typical bar's customer. I'd be happy to have a decent beer on tap, be served a glass with a bottle, or get a glass that isn't frozen. Maybe in the future a larger percentage of the country will appreciate beer as a food more and that will change. I'd pick my battles now.

Now if you feel like the solution to being robbed of 1 beer of every 7 is a government regulation program, I would contend (philosophical stances on the purpose of government aside) that you're going to lose that 1 beer in 7 either way. If the bar isn't shorting it to you in the glass, the government is going to be taxing you that 1/7 beer to pay for the regulation committee, inspectors, etc to implement the burea of the real pint.

Ymmv, but I'd say pick your battles and take any issues you have with the pour to the proprietor. If you don't like his response, don''t give him your business.


I think durability too. I don't know if everyone elses are the same but my nonic glasses are pretty fragile compared to my shakers.

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I live in probably the most over-regulated nanny-state in the world, and yet I can't say that my quality of life really suffers in any way from it. On the other hand, I don't get upset if I get a shaker glass of beer in the states instead of a "proper pint" with a line like I do hear. I'm not stingy, and I don't mind paying for the pleasure of drinking in a bar with my friends, which is why you do it. I don't think my quality of life would be better or worse if while I'm home in NY there's a line on the glass and I get my extra 2oz. Its just the way people do things, just like getting charged more for sitting down than standing up in other countries.

Its annoying, but I don't think I could actually get myself to be upset over it.

cford1 said:

I wouldn't call it gouging, but the average bar really isn't paying that much. I worked for a restaurant that now has beer, I think a keg of Miller costs them like 60-65 bucks. They sell 12 oz's for 4 bucks. Thats what, 165 beers. So they make $660 per keg. A $600 profit!

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I worked in a stadium a couple years back, and we were paying less than $15 for a 1/2 barrel of BMC, and selling beer in 16 oz cups for $8. Think about that.

springer said:

Places I go to even some of the chain places have it Bottled beer X dollars . draft small X$ and large X$ . Bet you dollars to donuts if they made a reg as to pints all places would just go large and small on drafts. The friend I have only uses the the 16 once pint glass for all draft beer. And just say's draft price is $ .

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Most of the places I see with 2 sizes generally say 16oz and 20/24 oz.

At my local watering hole, they serve draft beer in 10 oz or 20 oz glasses. They are what they say they are. I don't go to many bars, but I found one that I like and they get my business.

Baja_Brewer said:

I've swiped glasses from a local brewpub because I was pretty sure I was getting under-served. Low and behold, I was! Now...how can I got about telling them this without mentioning that I took one home for a bit of testing? I don't know, but the bottom of the 'pint' glass is so thick that I was pretty sure I was getting screwed!

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Take a measuring cup to the bar...


It is equally annoying to me with wine glasses. They never have the right glass the wine is always served either to warm (red) or too cold (white) Most places do not have different glasses for red or white. Red wine by the glass is almost always oxidized. And even though it is better to not be ripped off, they always fill up to the top in small glasses, so you can't smell it. I went to one resturant where the wine came in a small decanter and you could pour how much you wanted in your glass at a time.

Back on topic, my local "good" bar lets you know the ounces usually I order in one of their 20 oz mugs, but some of the higher ABV beers come in different sizes or proprietary glassware. So some are marked as coming in 10 oz glasses, 6 oz ect. They also offer all of their beers, except the special ones that come in special glasses, in 10 oz, 16 oz, and 20 oz.

Baja_Brewer said:

I've swiped glasses from a local brewpub because I was pretty sure I was getting under-served. Low and behold, I was! Now...how can I got about telling them this without mentioning that I took one home for a bit of testing? I don't know, but the bottom of the 'pint' glass is so thick that I was pretty sure I was getting screwed!

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So your pissed they didn't give a full pint so ya stole a glass .... makes perfect sense to me

mitch171 said:

It is equally annoying to me with wine glasses. They never have the right glass the wine is always served either to warm (red) or too cold (white) Most places do not have different glasses for red or white. Red wine by the glass is almost always oxidized. And even though it is better to not be ripped off, they always fill up to the top in small glasses, so you can't smell it. I went to one resturant where the wine came in a small decanter and you could pour how much you wanted in your glass at a time.

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There are places that do serve in decanter or in the bottle but really most places have no idea how to serve wine ... damn most of the servers arent even old enough to drink. Stop ordering wine at the Olive garden dude...

springer said:

There are places that do serve in decanter or in the bottle but really most places have no idea how to serve wine ... damn most of the servers arent even old enough to drink. Stop ordering wine at the Olive garden dude...

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I don't order wine out because of this. I never said I order at Olive Garden. I actually work at the New York Wine and Culinary center. I was just pointing out that most wine is actually server so wrong it is actually spoiled. So with beer at least is is usually still fresh and drinkable.

Wine is much harder to get served right, like you said. I personally think its because people don't drink it as often at home; its the kind of thing you have to learn growing up. Peope who start drinking it as 30-somethings read something stupid in Elle about drinking white wine cold and put it in the freezer. Good drinking "values" were taught to me growing up, so I learned how to appreciate booze rather than pound tasteless garbage until i pass out.

Baja_Brewer said:

I've swiped glasses from a local brewpub because I was pretty sure I was getting under-served. Low and behold, I was! Now...how can I got about telling them this without mentioning that I took one home for a bit of testing? I don't know, but the bottom of the 'pint' glass is so thick that I was pretty sure I was getting screwed!

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I have to second the confusion at glass-swiping. Why not just get a bottle of beer and pour it in if you're curious? The vast majority of bottled beers are already quite accurately measured in 12oz increments. If it fills to the top, you're not getting a pint.

mitch171 said:

I don't order wine out because of this. I never said I order at Olive Garden. I actually work at the New York Wine and Culinary center. I was just pointing out that most wine is actually server so wrong it is actually spoiled. So with beer at least is is usually still fresh and drinkable.

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joke hence the But I wont order wine at most places because of the things you stated.

Damn forget the size of the pour. I'm glad I'm not paying $7 a pint around here.

springer said:

joke hence the But I wont order wine at most places because of the things you stated.

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Hey, no joke, I was at an Olive Garden years back and someone ordered wine. The kid managed to pour out the entire bottle into our four glasses all the time explaining to us that they'd just taught him how to pour wine. Those were the fullest wine glasses I've EVER seen!

My local brewpub has the glasses marked with a line that says "The Pint Stops Here." I always liked that!

Shooter said:

Hey, no joke, I was at an Olive Garden years back and someone ordered wine. The kid managed to pour out the entire bottle into our four glasses all the time explaining to us that they'd just taught him how to pour wine. Those were the fullest wine glasses I've EVER seen!

My local brewpub has the glasses marked with a line that says "The Pint Stops Here." I always liked that!

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Ya that Taylor Chianti is good stuff aint it...... Hey you got you monies worth ... And you do know that they refilled the bottle from the big box in the kitchen... J/k or am I?

justflow1983 said:

imagine what nutjob is going to start screaming about "big government" taking over their freedom to pour crappy pints.

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lol.

springer said:

joke hence the But I wont order wine at most places because of the things you stated.

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Sorry I was hopped up on caffeine at the time...

cford1 said:

Alcohol is almost always the highest margin product in any restaurant. The rest of the operations normally have profits margins of 2-3%.

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Nope, never, food and restaurant has a much better margin because you take cheap fresh food and turn it into meals and sell your labour, beer is not a good profit maker, a coke makes much more for the bar than alcohol does.
I worked in the industry for years in multiple european countries, it was always the same.....

I had to point out this inaccuracy.

If someone has pint on their menu then you should get a pint, it's simple, nothing to do with government, it's about people not getting ripped.

EoinMag said:

Nope, never, food and restaurant has a much better margin because you take cheap fresh food and turn it into meals and sell your labour, beer is not a good profit maker, a coke makes much more for the bar than alcohol does.

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I don't know where you're working, but theres absolutely no way that a $55 keg being sold for in excess of $800 doesn't make a good profit margin.

springer said:

So your pissed they didn't give a full pint so ya stole a glass .... makes perfect sense to me

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haha, I was wondering if anyone was going to bring that one back around. The glasses have nice heavy bottoms, I like them. Maybe if I take enough of them they'll buy new, proper size glasses? Doubt it. Regardless, they charge enough for their 'pints' for a glass or two to go missing.

Synovia said:

I don't know where you're working, but theres absolutely no way that a $55 keg being sold for in excess of $800 doesn't make a good profit margin.

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Did you take into account liquor license, bar staff, cleaning supplies, refrigeration, building overhead, waste.

I agree beer makes more than liquor, but much less than food or pop.

Baja_Brewer said:

haha, I was wondering if anyone was going to bring that one back around. The glasses have nice heavy bottoms, I like them. Maybe if I take enough of them they'll buy new, proper size glasses? Doubt it. Regardless, they charge enough for their 'pints' for a glass or two to go missing.

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Half of my beer glasses were donated to me also...

Synovia said:

I don't know where you're working, but theres absolutely no way that a $55 keg being sold for in excess of $800 doesn't make a good profit margin.

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I don't know where you are getting your kegs, but I haven't seen a $55 keg in many years. And I have never seen a $55 keg of anything worth drinking.
Based on many of the places I have worked, it is highly unlikey that any operator is going to get much more than $400-$450 from a keg of premium beer if they are actually pouring a 16oz glass (128*15.5/16*4=$496). That is based on $4 a glass and accounting for waste (and lets not forget the free night of drinking the bartender gave his buddy). If their kegs cost $150 that makes their liquor cost on a keg 33%.

As far as your previous statement about margin, 2-3% is not correct.
Any good restauranteur will run his food cost at 20-25%. Pasta and Pizza will be around 15%, Steak and Seafood closer to 50%. The menu mix almost always balances to low 20's.
The only way beer beats food is in labor cost.