Honey Rye Saison with Wyeast 3711 French Saison and Orval dregs

Ok...first off, I'm a wild/sour newbie so go easy on me

I brewed a saison back on 11/6/13 with the following grain bill:

6 lb Pils
2 lb Wheat
2 lb Rye
2 lb Munich
1 1/2 lb Honey (bee vomit, not malt)

Hops are - 1 1/2 oz Cascade (7% AA) @ 60, 1/2 oz Belma (11.6%) @ 10, 1/2 oz Belma @ 0, and 1/2 oz EKG (5.1%) @ 0. Was also planning a 1 oz EKG dry hop for a week prior to bottling. (I don't expect hops matter much for this question though.)

My corrected OG was 1.065 and I pitched a 1 quart starter of 3711 on 11/6. 5 days later (still in primary) I pitched the dregs of a bottle (just one) of Orval in for some Brett funk.

Left sit for 2 months...all along in the same bucket. (Maybe I should have/still should transfer to a secondary?)

Today I finally took a gravity reading. Hadn't disturbed the surface until now and I indeed have the slightest bit of pellicle forming (wow it's weird to WANT to see a filmy, almost slimy layer on the top of your beer). Holy crap...after adjusting for temp, it's at 0.999. 8.7% ABV. Not only that but it's decidedly funky - I wouldn't say barnyard, but there's a definite "funk" there. It's also kinda hot, alcohol hot, I let the temps ramp up to high room temp after a few days and maybe I shouldn't have (in fact I put the fermenter up against the hot water tank in the basement, hoping to keep it a couple degrees above ambient...note that the basement IS actually heated). Beer temp when I checked gravity was 72 and some change.

Biggest question...since it's already pretty funky, should I bottle sooner rather than later? Any benefit to leaving it sit on the yeast cake longer at this point? Most the posts I see discuss how long it really takes funk to develop...I've already got it. I don't think I'm going to drop any more points really since I'm already at 0.999, I sure hope not.

edit - Thought I gave all possibly vital information but I missed one thing. Mash temp was 152 with 1 lb/1.25 qt ratio.

One thing is I think you might have mashed too low. The 3711 is a beast. With that one I would mash really high or really low depending on what I was trying for. If I knew I was pitching bugs of any sort I'd mash high(154-158). Just yeast I'd go low (146-148). I'd still leave it a while. You're only 2 months in. I think that alcohol bite will settle down as the beer ages a month or 2 more. It may get more funky also, but my move would be to leave it on the cake for a bit longer before bottling. I dont know if there's a right answer though.

Yeah I mean, there's no "off" flavors at this point - just alcohol and funk. And to be honest, I have to agree with what others have said - 3711 may be a super attenuator, but even at 0.999 it doesn't seem watery. It definitely tastes like it needs time, I'm just not sure whether to give it time in the fermenter or the bottle. (It will be bottled, not kegged.)

As for the mash temp - live and learn, I guess. I actually mashed a couple degrees higher than it seemed most people go for a saison just because I had read how much of a beast 3711 could be. I guess if you're going to pitch bugs (or at least Brett) after 3711, you might want to consider an even higher mash temp. Not sure how 0.999 or thereabouts will be for a saison in the end - the gravity sample seemed to tell me this could be good...or this could be bad. Whether fermenter or bottles, it's going to get several months at least more.

Yeah most people shoot for a very dry saison. Even mashing where you did obviously 3711 will get you there. But yeah if you want the bugs or brett to have anything left you have to mash much higher than normal. If you really want to bottle it, take another reading in 2 weeks and if it hasnt moved even by .001 it should be okay to bottle. Yours is going to be super dry. Maybe not so dry that it's watery, but still, very crisp. The Orval dregs may not even do anything other than lend some funk and no additional work down in gravity.

Thats plenty dry to bottle, and I would imagine you'll get more funk with the Brett under pressure in the bottle. There are probably plenty of esters for the Brett to metabolize and create some interesting flavors.

I like using a super-attenuative yeast like 3711 or Belle Saison for saisons that will have brett in secondary. According to Chad Yakobson, the brett doesn't need much in the way of remaining sugars to work on (see here), so this way I can bottle with brett without worrying about bottles exploding. I've read that brett produces a more aromatic profile when under pressure (here), though I've never done a side by side comparison.

My first few saisons with 3711 also had a lot of hot alcohol flavours. I've kept some bottles around, and last time I tried one it had smoothed out a bit but it still wasn't that pleasant. I don't know if it's because I underpitched the yeast, pitched at too high an initial temp, or let it get to high, or what. These days I try to keep that yeast cool for the first 24 hours or so, before letting it free rise.

metic - Yeah if I could go back and do it again, I think I'd try harder to keep the temp down the first couple days. I don't have a record of what I started the ferment at so I'm assuming it was probably around 66 or so in the water bath around the fermenter to start. Couple degrees less wouldn't have hurt and may have helped.

I did some more reading/Googling and found this:

When used as a secondary fermenter in bottles (Orval style), it gives a very "Orvalish" result, starting rather unpleasant with goat/urine changing within some moths to a pleasant fruitiness + horse blanket smell.

Click to expand...

on this website, the last response. http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1275339078

It's not bottled yet so the big difference between that observation and my own is that in a bottle, the Brett would be exposed to far far less oxygen than in a bucket. Could it in fact be the oxygen permeating the bucket at this point that's making the Brett so strongly (and not so pleasantly) funky this quickly?

I'm leaning at this point towards tossing in the dry hops soon, and then bottling in another 7-10 days. Of course I'd check the gravity again at that point just to be sure it's not still dropping but I can't imagine there's hardly a thing left for the Brett to chew on, other than dead yeast/alcohol/esters.

An update - I dry hopped on 1/12 and then was going to bottle this past Wednesday, found that my bottling bucket was leaking from the spigot so I had to wait until I got to the LHBS to pick up another one. Got to bottle this afternoon finally. I'd just let this one go, hadn't checked gravity again, wasn't messing with it until today. I planned to bottle no matter what, thinking if it wasn't tasting good I might just have to leave it for a long, long time to work itself out. Gravity as of today was 0.999 still, hadn't moved, so I declared it 100% good to bottle. Then I tasted it...

As the saying goes, RDWHAHB. I was worried about this one when I'd checked last time. I'm not worried any more. It tastes FANTASTIC. Not quite 1 month made all the difference - it's not hot at all (in fact it's going to be dangerous at close to 9% ABV). The Brett is showing itself quite a bit more now than it even was before...but it's almost 100% pineapple at this point. Don't know if that's the usual descriptor for the Brett found in Orval, but it's definitely what I'm getting. Bottled it up and now I can't wait for it to come into its own in the bottles.

At this point I'm considering my first wild/Brett foray to be a success. Given more time, it may in fact be a resounding success. This one will be going to some competitions...

I have brewed 3 saisons with this yeast so far. All have been a little bit hot with alcohol, but the two that I brewed with honey were definitely hotter. The most recent was just a touch of honey on the top that came to me as a gift, more to say it's in there than for any noticeable effect. At 12 days and 75 fermentation it burns like mouthwash. I've got it in secondary and will check in a few weeks.

Sounds like you need temp control.

Yep, temp control I would put before some items we tend to get long before, like a chiller. The hot perception from the saison yeast is most likely heavy alcohols and other undesired compounds. as noted, the precursors for these compounds are produced by warm fermentation conditions in the primary. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to remove or alter these flavors. What I have taken to doing now is to keep the fermentation cool through primary, and allowed to rise a couple degrees (20C/68F, or saison 22C/72F) through conditioning. For beers where the yeast is the dominant contributor, I warm bottle condition after the fermentation is complete. This encourages the yeast to produce its distinctive flavors without the solvent-like flavor-mouthwash.

I humbly disagree with other contributors that the mash temp is too low. I personally like my saisons to be dry. You will get a lot of flavors that will create a perception of sweetness from floral and fruity notes of the yeast and hops used. Even if you mashed for a sweeter, fuller beer the Brett would chew through anything the saison yeast wouldn't. I have yet to have a Brett and bugs fermenation finish above 1.002. Keep in mind these numbers are skewed because alcohol is thinner than water so the gravity is slightly higher. By limiting the more complex sugars allows the Brett to drive the gravity down at a faster rate.

I would heed the advice I got on these forums regarding Brett fermentations and bottling- do not move to glass until you hit a terminal gravity of 0.996 to 1.002. Brett can metabolize more complex sugars than saccharomyces, even 3711. If they have a few more points of sugar to produce CO2 with in the bottle you may have bottle bombs. At best, it's a mess and a sad day to clean up beer and glass or worst someone gets hurt in the discovery. They will scavenge sugars over months and need time. I have kept sours in buckets for months before. Brett is oxygen greedy so I don't think it's an issue compared to ales and lagers that can oxidize over conditioning. If you want to speed the process up, I pitch a high-krausen starter of 3711 into my sours and I can bottle in a week or so.

The pineapple you are getting is likely an ester of the 3711 that is being reworked by the brett. Depending on the pitch rates, yeast succession, and conditioning schedules you can have wildly different results brewing the same beer. If your resources permit, springing for a chest freezer and temp controller will step your brew-game up more than possibly anything else.