Boiling...vigorous or just a simmer?

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1971hemicuda

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So, you shouldn't believe everything you read randomly on the Internet. So, why not ask a random question in the Internet where I might get some good advice.

I'm really wanting to do a good pilsner...but I've read that I don't want a massive boil to let everything caramelise as much as I would a darker beer. I usually get a really rippin' boil and boil off from 8.25 gallons down to 5.25 gallons in 90 minutes. However, do I want something so strong for a lighter, paler beer? Would things caramelise too much for a light pilsner?

Cheers! :mug:
 
I say especially with a lighter lager I would want a more vigorous boil. You'll not only get optimum use of you bittering hop additions, you will also boil off many of the volatile minerals/chemicals in your wort. Giving you a cleaner fished product. I haven't had any problems with caramelization. My beers have also been turning out more clear since I got the setup on the propane burners!
 
I've noticed my lighter ales have been turning out really clear since i've been getting such a nice hard boil...but this is going to be my first very light lager. So I wasn't sure. I think i'm just going to take your suggestion, continue with what I've been doing and hope for the best! haha
 
The main purposes for the boil are to drive off DMS, promote hop utilization, sterilize the wort, and cause Maillard reactions (not actually caramelization, but basically the browning effect you're talking about). All you need for the first 3 are a good rolling boil, i.e. just enough to keep the liquid moving in the pot. It should just look like there's a curve to the top of the liquid, not jumping all over in the pot. The Maillard reactions are increased by removing water or increasing temperature, so you would get more browning by boiling harder. It's up to you really if the flavor changes caused by these reactions are more or less desirable than the color impact, but basically yes a more vigorous boil will make it more difficult to have the lightest beer possible.
 
stageseven said:
The main purposes for the boil are to drive off DMS, promote hop utilization, sterilize the wort, and cause Maillard reactions (not actually caramelization, but basically the browning effect you're talking about). All you need for the first 3 are a good rolling boil, i.e. just enough to keep the liquid moving in the pot. It should just look like there's a curve to the top of the liquid, not jumping all over in the pot. The Maillard reactions are increased by removing water or increasing temperature, so you would get more browning by boiling harder. It's up to you really if the flavor changes caused by these reactions are more or less desirable than the color impact, but basically yes a more vigorous boil will make it more difficult to have the lightest beer possible.

100% right on.
 
Thanks for all the great info!

I need to lower my boil off rate then, but i should be pretty set for this. Just bring it to a nice boil (i don't really need it ripping, but definitely getting the water rolling) and let it go. Would 60 minutes be enough, or should I aim for a 90 minute boil?
 
One thing to note: if you change your boiling profile and don't quite hit the evaporation rate you planned on you could boil off more or less than intended. If you aimed to boil off 15% but only boiled off 8%, you'll end up having more volume at the end of the boil, which will through off your IBUs and OG.

To help keep track of your evaporation rate, take an initial volume reading and then another into your boil (halfway or a quarter of the way in). If your new reading shows you that if you continue boiling at that rate you will fall below your final volume, ease back on the boil or vice versa.

Practicing this will help you hit all your numbers. :mug:
 
Thanks for all the great info!

I need to lower my boil off rate then, but i should be pretty set for this. Just bring it to a nice boil (i don't really need it ripping, but definitely getting the water rolling) and let it go. Would 60 minutes be enough, or should I aim for a 90 minute boil?

90 minutes for a beer with pilsner malt! It has more SMM (DMS precursors) so it needs to boil for 90 minutes. BUT- I've done a 60 minute boil using pilsner malt, without DMS. I don't recommend it, but it worked out ok for me!
 
If you have your process down well enough, and you can cool a pils wort down below 120 in less than 6-7 minutes post boil, you'll be ok like Yooper said. If you can't do that, stick to a 90+ minute boil with Pilsner malt or else you should just go ahead and re-name your brew liquid corn salsa.
 
The milliard reactions also help with the maltiness of the beer and in a pilsner (except german) the maltiness is important to the style.
 
stageseven said:
The main purposes for the boil are to drive off DMS, promote hop utilization, sterilize the wort, and cause Maillard reactions

Not entirely correct. Driving off DMS is not a "purpose" of the boil at all, not even a minor one (it CAN'T be), even though it provides a reason to boil for longer. SMM conversion to DMS actually happens DURING the boil, and boiling for 90 minutes helps ensure all the SMM has been converted, and all the subsequent DMS driven off. If you skip the boil altogether for whatever reason, DMS really shouldn't be a problem even if you use pilsner malt, whereas a 30 minute boil is very likely to have a significant amount of it.
 
Not entirely correct. Driving off DMS is not a "purpose" of the boil at all, not even a minor one (it CAN'T be), even though it provides a reason to boil for longer. SMM conversion to DMS actually happens DURING the boil, and boiling for 90 minutes helps ensure all the SMM has been converted, and all the subsequent DMS driven off. If you skip the boil altogether for whatever reason, DMS really shouldn't be a problem even if you use pilsner malt, whereas a 30 minute boil is very likely to have a significant amount of it.

Purpose (n) : The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists

You're getting into semantics here and while correct in theory on DMS production, from a practical standpoint I would disagree. If you skip the boil in an all-grain batch for whatever reason, you're going to have a very difficult time with making actual beer instead of a lacto-laden mess with no hops. Since you know you HAVE to boil to get the results you want, and you know you are going to create DMS during the boil, you also have to boil for a proper amount of time, making the reduction of DMS a function of the boil.

It's not a secondary function at all in this aspect, in fact I'd say it's the main purpose in a homebrew setting for the length of the standard boil with hop utilization being more of an afterthought. One could easily just have a slightly larger hop addition for 45 minutes and still get pretty much just bitterness from the addition, but with a 40 minute half-life, you need at least the 60 (or 90 with pilsner malt) minute boil to reduce DMS to around or below taste threshold levels. The minimum 60 minute boil needed to drive off DMS just happens to also give us better hop utilization and slightly lowers batch cost. Obviously in a commercial setting the bottom line is key, so they have even stronger motivations for the longer boil, but that doesn't apply so much to us.
 
Hhmmmm

Ok so I use an immersion chiller, with a whirlpool and a prechilled (just an immersion chiller submerged in water/ice/salt) so I shouldn't have a problem making a nasty corn salsa or what ever you called it lol

I always do a minimum 90 minute boil, so I can boil for 30 minutes....take reading on my volume and adjust from there. Either turn down if I'm going too fast or up and wait too add the first hop edition.

This has been very informative! I've always done big, rich malty ales so I just let the boil rip and didn't care. This light, crisp beer is new to me. I'm excited now!
 
stageseven said:
You're getting into semantics here and while correct in theory, from a practical standpoint I would disagree. If you skip the boil for whatever reason, you're going to have a very difficult time with making actual beer instead of a lacto-laden mess with no hops. Since you know you HAVE to boil to get the results you want, and you know you are going to create DMS during the boil, you also have to boil for a proper amount of time, making the reduction of DMS a function of the boil.

That's not what you said. And it's not as if people NEVER intend to brew a lacto beer. Although, the whole reasoning behind even bringing that up is totally fallacious as it has nothing to do with DMS and everything to do with an ACTUAL purpose of boiling - hop utilization and isomerization.

I apologize if you don't like being called out on being wrong, but pedantry wasn't the point. Even minor stuff like that is how misinformation spreads (just look at the unbelievably widespread notion that flocculation means yeast falling out of suspension). Somewhere down the line, somebody may consider doing a no-boil Berliner Weisse, and might decide against it solely for fear of DMS, or somebody who read this thread and absorbed that information might put that fear in them, or maybe say something about it in another thread to someone who then does it.

Point is, there's no reason to let an error of fact go unchecked on an educational forum. Or, let's imagine that you're not just getting defensive and really said that with full awareness of the facts, and that all this really is nothing more than a poor choice of using the word "purpose". Even if that actually HAD been the case, your wording was obviously unclear enough to make at least one person understand it to imply something else, and so would very likely be similarly misunderstood by at least SOME others as well. And if they're unaware of the facts, the issue of "semantics" has the same potential for misinformation as the actual error of fact, and thus requires the same clarification anyway.
 
I boil the living piss out of all my beers, never had a darkening effect. This is a 3 srm CAP. This is after a short 2 week primary and only one week of lagering, crystal clear and very light colored.


2011-05-20_13-16-30_896.jpg
 
That's not what you said. And it's not as if people NEVER intend to brew a lacto beer. Although, the whole reasoning behind even bringing that up is totally fallacious as it has nothing to do with DMS and everything to do with an ACTUAL purpose of boiling - hop utilization and isomerization.

I apologize if you don't like being called out on being wrong, but pedantry wasn't the point. Even minor stuff like that is how misinformation spreads (just look at the unbelievably widespread notion that flocculation means yeast falling out of suspension). Somewhere down the line, somebody may consider doing a no-boil Berliner Weisse, and might decide against it solely for fear of DMS, or somebody who read this thread and absorbed that information might put that fear in them, or maybe say something about it in another thread to someone who then does it.

Point is, there's no reason to let an error of fact go unchecked on an educational forum. Or, let's imagine that you're not just getting defensive and really said that with full awareness of the facts, and that all this really is nothing more than a poor choice of using the word "purpose". Even if that actually HAD been the case, your wording was obviously unclear enough to make at least one person understand it to imply something else, and so would very likely be similarly misunderstood by at least SOME others as well. And if they're unaware of the facts, the issue of "semantics" has the same potential for misinformation as the actual error of fact, and thus requires the same clarification anyway.

Woah, slow down there man. There's an awful lot of hypothetical situations and presuppositions going on in your post. My choice of the word "purpose" is based solely on its dictionary definition, and used exactly for my intended effect. As I posted above, this definition is "The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists". In this case, because in practical brewing situations (and as a direct answer to the OP) almost every recipe that exists will require a boil, one of the reasons that the boil must be done for an appropriate amount of time and to a particular level of intensity is for the reason (i.e. purpose) of driving off DMS.

Your initial post was enough to clear up for any ambiguity that may have been read into mine. My reply was for the purpose of pointing out the major detail you left out of your reply - that skipping the boil will cause a lacto infection whether intended or not. Now it's getting entirely pedantic, so I'm done. As heard so many times on this forum, RDWHAHB.
 
I found something new about this topic.
By this rolling boil experiment there are not many benefits of simmering.
 

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You don’t want an intense boil for light beers like Pilsners. Keeping the boil off to the bare minimum while still boiling off all the DMS is what you’re looking for.

SMM is the precursor to DMS. SMM is converted Into DMS at temps above 80c. DMS is then volitized easily as it’s boiling temp is 37c. SMM’s half life is 32 minutes at 100c at sea level at 5.5 pH. Higher elevation (due to lower boiling temp) and lower PH can increase that time significantly.


High end German Brewhouses can keep boil off down to 3-4% I believe. Less than 5-6 is ideal to retain the intricate qualities of Pilsner malt.

Same is pretty much true for most beers other than maybe the darkest of styles. High boil off is not a good thing, it can have some seriously detrimental affects on wort.

This is the best source for info on DMS that I’ve found.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide
 
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You don’t want an intense boil for light beers like Pilsners. Keeping the boil off to the bare minimum while still boiling off all the DMS is what you’re looking for.

SMM is the precursor to DMS. SMM is converted Into DMS at temps above 80c. DMS is then volitized easily as it’s boiling temp is 37c. SMM’s half life is 32 minutes at 100c at sea level at 5.5 pH. Higher elevation (due to lower boiling temp) and lower PH can increase that time significantly.


High end German Brewhouses can keep boil off down to 3-4% I believe. Less than 5-6 is ideal to retain the intricate qualities of Pilsner malt.

Same is pretty much true for most beers other than maybe the darkest of styles. High boil off is not a good thing, it can have some seriously detrimental affects on wort.

This is the best source for info on DMS that I’ve found.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide

Do you think DMS is guilty of shorter self-life?
 
Do you think DMS is guilty of shorter self-life?

What do you mean exactly?

Long and/or strong boils can increase the thermal stress on the wort which can lead to flavor instability and poor head retention. The flavor instability comes from an acceleration in oxidation from the thermal stress on the wort.

DMS is DMS. It’s generally not desirable. It can present itself in different forms other than the corn aroma people usually associate with it.
 
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What do you mean exactly?

Long and/or strong boils can increase the thermal stress on the wort which can increasIt can lead to flavor instability and poor head retention. The flavor instability comes from an acceleration in oxidation from the thermal stress on the wort.

DMS is DMS. It’s generally not desirable. It can present itself in different forms other than the corn aroma people usually associate with it.

Do you think that simmering is better of strong boil for beer?
 
All of the technical brewing literature points towards shorter and gentler boils being much better for wort and in turn beer.

I would think somewhere in between, erring towards simmer. A gentle boil..

It all depends on your system, etc. a great thing to test out on your own. Make the same beer twice and just alter that variable.
 
I've just read the entire thread and most people write "boil off rate".

Boil intensity is not the same as boil off rate. Those two are two different things.

For instance if you boil hard with your lid on, you'll notice the effects of a hard boil, but with little boil off rate. Like maillard products -> darkening of wort and thicker mouthfeel but also more coagulation of proteins and more aromas driven off.

If you boil weak, but with your lid completely off, you'll experience more evaporation than if you boil with your lid on. But you will not experience the effects of a hard boil.

You can replace "lid on/off" with lid partly on/ almost covered, if you want. It was just to get the point through.

My experiences from the last 6-8 batches with soft boil is more aroma is retained in the wort. More aroma from the hops, and more aroma and also taste from the malt.

But also a soft boil would mean that you'd maybe want to use more crystal malts for the mouthfeel, (uncoagulated proteins can only carry you a little bit of the way for mouthfeel), since the maillard products aren't as strong as they are in a vigorous boil. FG is also affected slightly by a hard boil, you can end up higher. There's no caramelization occuring in the kettle since the temperature is to low for the volume boiled. It's maillard products.

Also there's heat stress. But I don't think that's something a homebrewer should need to worry about as a big brewery. Heat stress makes the product less stable on the shelf, and goes "bad" earlier. This is just something I've picked up in the litterature and podcasts and such.

A hard boil also picks up more oxygen which further darkens the wort and affects the fresh grainy flavor if good malts are used.

For DMS my experiences are that I've noticed it two times. 6.2% (ish) evaporation and a veeery gently simmer (I wanted to see how low I can go). Lid almost completely on, maybe an inch of opening. I did get DMS in a pilnser/wheat-grist beer where I fermented with us-05, but nothing in the same grist where I fermented with another yeast, it was a split batch. This happened twice. Two split batches. The two beers which didn't have DMS from the same split-batch had more vigorous fermentation.

Same setting on my induction plate with the lid 50% covered did not result in the same amount of DMS. I haven't been able to test this further since the ambient temperature did a nosedive the last week and my boil is weaker now comparing to what it was, so I had to bump from 4 to 5 on the induction top.

Hope this can help someone :)
 
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For DMS my experiences are that I've noticed it two times. 6.2% (ish) evaporation and a veeery gently simmer (I wanted to see how low I can go). Lid almost completely on, maybe an inch of opening. I did get DMS in a pilnser/wheat-grist beer where I fermented with us-05, but nothing in the same grist where I fermented with another yeast, it was a split batch. This happened twice. Two split batches. The two beers which didn't have DMS from the same split-batch had more vigorous fermentation.

Same setting on my induction plate with the lid 50% covered did not result in the same amount of DMS. I haven't been able to test this further since the ambient temperature did a nosedive the last week and my boil is weaker now comparing to what it was, so I had to bump from 4 to 5 on the induction top.

Hope this can help someone :)

What was the boil length on these experiments you did? Did you record the PH at the start?
 
What was the boil length on these experiments you did? Did you record the PH at the start?

60 minutes. I don't measure ph anymore. But calculated (which has been pretty on par earlier, that's why I stopped measuring) was 5.28-5.33. A higher pH will wield more maillard-products with the effects of that.

Also various preboil SG. But only two different SG's. High grav, and "normal" (1.052-ish).
 
The notion of long and hard boils is an artifact from the early days of brewing. However, modern brewing texts and brewing systems have embraced much shorter boils with lessor energy input and heat loss. Ninety minute plus boil durations were common in the period prior to 40 years ago. That changed after the oil embargo and concerns over energy efficiency.

The science of wort boiling has also improved in that time and we do understand much more than 40 years ago. The Milk the Funk info on DMS is just an example of the knowledge that didn't even exist 40 years ago.

With regard to the need to boil a Pils malt wort for 90 minutes...it depends on your elevation. Most of the population in the US is below 2000 ft and the effect of elevation is no big deal. Since SMM to DMS conversion rate is directly affected by temperature, boiling at less than 2000 feet means that your boil temp and conversion rate are generally adequate for a 60 minute boil. If you're at a higher elevation, then its possible that you do need to boil longer to convert sufficient SMM to DMS to avoid its downstream effects.

The issue of intensity of boil and evaporation loss has also been enhanced through scientific research. As mentioned above, elevation affects your boiling point. However, the intensity of your heat input doesn't really change the temperature of your wort once its boiling. However, intensity does produce increases in a number of undesirable compounds in wort. The worst of which is thiobarbituric acid. It has been proven to be a very reliable indicator of staling potential for beer. Some modern breweries monitor their wort's thiobarbituric acid index (TBI) and try to keep that value low.

The other thing that is quite different in modern breweries is the reduction in their overall evaporation loss. Like many homebrewers today, pro breweries used to evaporate a lot of their wort volume away (15 or more percent). Now, modern breweries are targeting much lower evaporation (typically less than 8 percent). Since it takes energy (and cost) to evaporate water, those breweries are more than interested in reducing evaporation. The research has proven that low evaporation can still produce good beer. I read a journal article that said that as little as 2% evaporation was OK, but I don't believe that most brewers can produce an acceptable beer at that level. I and others have found that around 8% is good.

Another thing to consider is that you don't actually have to boil your wort. However, you do have to get it hot enough and you need to produce adequate opportunity for undesirable volatiles, like DMS, an opportunity to pass from the wort into the atmosphere. The Picobrew folks have been employing a modest wort temp of about 209F and circulating the wort to produce good beer. Many modern breweries employ gentle boil temps and pumped wort with wort spreaders to help enhance that transfer of volatiles out of the wort. It does work.

Regarding simmering, as pointed out above, simmering can work. However it also takes other measures. If you pump your wort in the kettle, you can get DMS out. I don't pump my wort yet, but with my existing RIMS, I could convert my existing kettle to some sort of sprayed recirculation. But for now, I have found that a 30 minute covered simmer followed by a 30 minute moderate boil is sufficient to rid my all Pils Helles wort of DMS. I brew at 750 ft elevation. That is how I limit heat stress on my wort and reduce evaporation loss. I've seen no detrimental effects from the practice.

PS: I'm presenting on this subject at the upcoming HomebrewCon in Portland in a little over a week. Be sure to attend this session, if your interested in learning more.
 
I can add that all my beers lately with lower boil is done with no darker than wheat malt. It's pilsner and wheat, and some 20 EBC-ish cara.
 
But for now, I have found that a 30 minute covered simmer followed by a 30 minute moderate boil is sufficient to rid my all Pils Helles wort of DMS. I brew at 750 ft elevation. That is how I limit heat stress on my wort and reduce evaporation loss. I've seen no detrimental effects from the practice.

Martin, any suggestions for me at 7000’ in elevation. SMM half life is literally twice at my boiling temp. If I was to replicate your method would I literally need to do it for twice the time?
 
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I made several batches without boil. Just mash out to 78'C. And I never had a problem with DMS. The only problem is that shelf life is 6 weeks from the beginning of the fermentation.
I read that industrial breweries do not cook at all but they are at 80'C and for up to two hours with whirlpools.
 
If you read the MTF link you’ll see why not boiling doesn’t create DMS.
 

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