Advice needed about starter

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snail

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This morning was the first time I made a starter using a stir plate. I made it this morning at 9 and made a batch of beer while it sat on the stir plate. Now the wort is sitting in the fermentor in my kitchen while the starter continues to make more yeast cells. Should I wait until morning to pitch the starter or should I pitch it now? The OG is 1.064. I'm a little concerned that letting the wort sit overnight, may result in an infection.
 
I've let worts sit overnight before with no problem. As long as everything is sanitary and sealed, you will minimize the number of foreign yeast/bacteria that fall into the wort. Yes some will fall in and start metabolizing but really it will be a very, very small amount and when you pitch your already active yeast it will take over the entire beer in no time. My advice is to let it sit and pitch tomorrow.
 
This morning was the first time I made a starter using a stir plate. I made it this morning at 9 and made a batch of beer while it sat on the stir plate. Now the wort is sitting in the fermentor in my kitchen while the starter continues to make more yeast cells. Should I wait until morning to pitch the starter or should I pitch it now? The OG is 1.064. I'm a little concerned that letting the wort sit overnight, may result in an infection.

You want to either pitch at hi krausen or at the end of the yeast cycle, with high Krausen about 18 - 24 hours after you start the starter (sometimes a little more or less)m. That being said, throw in late tonight.
 
You can pitch at the starter's high krausen. I just did that this weekend and six hours later the yeast were having a party in the fermenter. I think if you don't pitch at high krausen and the yeast are going dormant, it's better to wait a couple of days with the yeast in the fridge to flocculate out and finish storing up whatever it is they store up when they start going dormant.
 
I've let worts sit overnight before with no problem. As long as everything is sanitary and sealed, you will minimize the number of foreign yeast/bacteria that fall into the wort. Yes some will fall in and start metabolizing but really it will be a very, very small amount and when you pitch your already active yeast it will take over the entire beer in no time. My advice is to let it sit and pitch tomorrow.



Remember, your wort is not sterile and will contain wild yeast and bacteria. So pitching large amounts of yeast now so the yeast gets the upper hand is necessary. You want the yeast to ferment the wort not the bacteria.
 
For god's sake, pitch it now.

Yes, the starter should have been done earlier, but it wasn't. Once the beer is in the carboy, you need to put the yeast in there. Period.

You don't NEED to, but it certainly cuts down on the risk of infection. I let lagers sit all the time overnight at 50 degF before pitching the yeast (I know it's cooler than what his wort is at). In fact I risk even more infection by siphoning the beer off (most of) the break material the next day before pitching the yeast (again only for lagers). I'm not even that much of a sanitation freak either and I've NEVER had an infected beer. :ban:
 
I'm in the wait till morning camp. You will be introducing billions of cells, more than enough to overwhelm any single cell that might have bred overnite.
 
I'm in the wait till morning camp. You will be introducing billions of cells, more than enough to overwhelm any single cell that might have bred overnite.

That's how I usually look at it and haven't had an issue thus far..I haven't yet let wort sit overnight.
 
Look at wort as if it were pasturized milk. It won't go sour over night. With reasonable sanitation you should be able to keep it for several days before pitching. Not that you would want to, but it will be fine until the starter is finished.

The fear of infection is much greater than the risk.
 
Look at wort as if it were pasturized milk. It won't go sour over night. With reasonable sanitation you should be able to keep it for several days before pitching. Not that you would want to, but it will be fine until the starter is finished.

The fear of infection is much greater than the risk.

Ok, but what would be the benefit to NOT pitching it now?

I guess I don't quite understand. The beer is made. It's just sitting there. There is a yeast culture started, and probably not at the peak of reproduction but certainly it has a higher count than it did this morning. The advantages of pitching now have been enumerated.

But what would the advantage be of waiting? A higher cell count? Well, sure. But it'll have a higher cell count by morning if pitched in the wort tonight, too. I just don't see why it's even a question. What possible benefit could a yeast-less wort sitting over night give to this brew?
 
Ok, but what would be the benefit to NOT pitching it now?

I guess I don't quite understand. The beer is made. It's just sitting there. There is a yeast culture started, and probably not at the peak of reproduction but certainly it has a higher count than it did this morning. The advantages of pitching now have been enumerated.

But what would the advantage be of waiting? A higher cell count? Well, sure. But it'll have a higher cell count by morning if pitched in the wort tonight, too. I just don't see why it's even a question. What possible benefit could a yeast-less wort sitting over night give to this brew?

+1 to this. If the starter was made this morning, the yeast have probably done the majority of reproduction. The benefit of waiting a few extra hours is minimal... ESPECIALLY if it is a beer that has an OG of under 1.060.
 
+1 to this. If the starter was made this morning, the yeast have probably done the majority of reproduction. The benefit of waiting a few extra hours is minimal... ESPECIALLY if it is a beer that has an OG of under 1.060.

Likewise why not just pitch a single vial and forget the whole starter thing.

The reason for making the starter is lost if it is not continued to completion. I don't see a good reason to not let it finish. It'll probably be fine either way, but if I made the starter I would let got to peak before pitching and not worry about it.
 
I was under the impression that whenever you are using liquid yeast you should make a starter. The original gravity for the brew was 1.064. I did end up pitching it last night. The starter was on the stir plate for about 12 hours when I pitched it. If the starter wasn't finished, wouldn't I have underpitched?
 
12 hours is about 4 hours shy of the minimum recommended time for the yeast to fully populate a starter, but I wouldn't sweat it. You may have under pitched by a little bit but it really shouldn't make that big a difference. Problems arise when you grossly under pitch, like don't make a starter and only use one Wyeast smack pack on a 1.070 OG wort. That's a good way to get incomplete fermentation as the yeast run the risk of becoming so worn out they can't finish the job. I think in your case 12 hours was fine and the yeast will make the transition without much difficulty. Rest easy my friend!
 
Likewise why not just pitch a single vial and forget the whole starter thing.

The reason for making the starter is lost if it is not continued to completion. I don't see a good reason to not let it finish. It'll probably be fine either way, but if I made the starter I would let got to peak before pitching and not worry about it.

You don't have to complete the starter- your goal is simply to reproduce the yeast cells. A single vial simply doesn't have enough cells, especially for a beer over 1.060.

Without a hemocytometer, you're still guessing at the cell count anyway. You can assume, though, that there was reproduction.

In theory, even a 2 hour starter would be beneficial over none at all. Ideally, the starter would be pitched at high krausen, but when is that? Four hours? Twelve? Twenty? Quite possibly, any of those times. One of the reasons I make my starter in advance by several days is because I just can't seem to get the timing right! Sometimes a starter will ferment out completely in less than 24 hours. Sometimes it won't. I sometimes can't figure out when high krausen is- even in my own starters at my house! I certainly can't guess when someone else's starter is finished.

Generally, a 2L starter will reach maximum cell density within 12 hours-18 hours. So, pitching at 10 hours would not be detrimental in my opinion. It would be more beneficial, in my opinion, to pitch a starter that may be a hair under maximum cell density than to let wort sit out overnight.

I guess this discussion goes to show you why so many of us do the things we do. Neither is right nor wrong. Just different opinions on how to accomplish the same goal.
 
The reason for making the starter is lost if it is not continued to completion. I don't see a good reason to not let it finish. It'll probably be fine either way, but if I made the starter I would let got to peak before pitching and not worry about it.

Since a giant 5g container of wort is sitting there, why NOT pitch now. What possible benefit is there from letting the yeast sit in the smallish container of wort? Any additional yeast growth in the starter could just as well be happening in the beer.

It is imperative to pitch yeast and get the wort up above 2% alcohol. This will poison the bacteria that are growing rapidly as we speak.

To properly create and use a starter, it should be fermented to completion before the wort is cooled. It should then also be rested overnight at cold temps, then decanted. These steps were not done and as you pointed out the reason for making the starter was lost.
 
I don't think all is lost because I didn't let the starter fully ferment out. I mean, I am in a better position now than just dumping the yeast in from the smack pack. Since they were given 12 hours to reproduce, there were more cells than there were originally. It may not be the best it could be, but better. Oh yeah, and I learned to time it better! :)
 
I don't think all is lost because I didn't let the starter fully ferment out. I mean, I am in a better position now than just dumping the yeast in from the smack pack. Since they were given 12 hours to reproduce, there were more cells than there were originally. It may not be the best it could be, but better. Oh yeah, and I learned to time it better! :)

Well, I guess you are right, some growth is better than none at all.

I'm sure your brew will be great. Cheers!
 
Since a giant 5g container of wort is sitting there, why NOT pitch now. What possible benefit is there from letting the yeast sit in the smallish container of wort? Any additional yeast growth in the starter could just as well be happening in the beer.

It is imperative to pitch yeast and get the wort up above 2% alcohol. This will poison the bacteria that are growing rapidly as we speak.

To properly create and use a starter, it should be fermented to completion before the wort is cooled. It should then also be rested overnight at cold temps, then decanted. These steps were not done and as you pointed out the reason for making the starter was lost.

I don’t agree with the procedure of decanting the starter. There is something special that happens when you pitch your starter yeast at high krausen (12-18 hours) and introduce healthy ACTIVE yeast to cool oxygenated wort.
 
Yeah I'm not too worried about it, just waiting for signs of fermentation now. Thanks for all the advice though!
 
I don’t agree with the procedure of decanting the starter. There is something special that happens when you pitch your starter yeast at high krausen (12-18 hours) and introduce healthy ACTIVE yeast to cool oxygenated wort.

You might be right. However, I have had some smelly oxygenated starter wort that I would not want to add to a small beer, i.e., a helles.

Also, since I grow yeast from small frozen tubes, I end up with almost 8L of starter wort. It takes 10 days to grow this. I have to decant twice to make this happen. Not much choice but to decant.
 
There are two risks involved.

1.) The risk of infection.

2.) The risk of underpitching.

As I said, with reasonable sanitation the wort is sanitary and will have a 'shelf' life similar to pasteurized milk. So in my opinion, # 2 is much more likely than # 1.

With my lagers, I cannot achieve fermentation temps (50 F) with my immersion chiller. It takes at about 24 hours to stabilize the wort temp before I can pitch. So, my experience says the wort can wait.

I will agree that higher temps than that will accelerate infection growth, I just doubt that it would be enough in 24 hours to worry about. It takes a week for 4 billion cells to ferment out, at which time you would have maybe a trillion yeast cells? An infection starting from less than 10 cells wouldn't have a chance even if it had a 24 hour head start. Just my opinion.:mug:
 
I don’t agree with the procedure of decanting the starter. There is something special that happens when you pitch your starter yeast at high krausen (12-18 hours) and introduce healthy ACTIVE yeast to cool oxygenated wort.

If you refrigerate after 16 hours, after decanting and letting the starter come back up to room temperature over the course of several hours, the yeast is still going to be active. I'd rather pitch as much yeast and as little starter wort possible so my recipe is the only contributing factor to the flavor of my beer. I've had batches bubbling violently 3 hours after pitching using this method. I can't think of anything more special than that.
 
If you refrigerate after 16 hours, after decanting and letting the starter come back up to room temperature over the course of several hours, the yeast is still going to be active. I'd rather pitch as much yeast and as little starter wort possible so my recipe is the only contributing factor to the flavor of my beer. I've had batches bubbling violently 3 hours after pitching using this method. I can't think of anything more special than that.

"I've had batches bubbling violently 3 hours after pitching using this method. I can't think of anything more special than that."

Two hours would be more special:rockin:
 
You might be right. However, I have had some smelly oxygenated starter wort that I would not want to add to a small beer, i.e., a helles.

Also, since I grow yeast from small frozen tubes, I end up with almost 8L of starter wort. It takes 10 days to grow this. I have to decant twice to make this happen. Not much choice but to decant.

"oxygenated starter wort"
Fermentation will scrub this out and if its smelly I would not put it in my beer...

"I end up with almost 8L of starter wort"
OMG...that is almost half my batch of beer. Do you brew twice, once for the starters and once for your beer...lol
I also grow mine up from 10ml tubes. I have sterile wort in tubes that I active it with the pitch that into a 250ml flask then jump it up to a 2000ml flask. I pitch that into 5 gallons of beer after 12 hours in the 2000ml flask. within two hours of pitching I have activity. In 5 days I have full attenuation.
 
"oxygenated starter wort"
Fermentation will scrub this out and if its smelly I would not put it in my beer...

"I end up with almost 8L of starter wort"
OMG...that is almost half my batch of beer. Do you brew twice, once for the starters and once for your beer...lol
I also grow mine up from 10ml tubes. I have sterile wort in tubes that I active it with the pitch that into a 250ml flask then jump it up to a 2000ml flask. I pitch that into 5 gallons of beer after 12 hours in the 2000ml flask. within two hours of pitching I have activity. In 5 days I have full attenuation.

4L for a 5g batch, 8L for 10g.

250ml -> 1L -> 4L, decant, repeat. Not a really big deal. I am getting tired of it, though, and I'm brewing more beer with dry yeast these days.
 
4L for a 5g batch, 8L for 10g.

250ml -> 1L -> 4L, decant, repeat. Not a really big deal. I am getting tired of it, though, and I'm brewing more beer with dry yeast these days.

I hear you...I use to keep dry yeast for emergences only now I buy a few packs at a time and use them for those days I feel like brewing but didn't have a starter ready.

How many yeast strains do you have banked? Willing to trade? PM me if you are.
 
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